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Beyond bad control and being high for my first game of the day, what the fuck did I go wrong? I faced a proxy mara into straight up mech. I am the biggest mech hater. I failed on upgrades, and failed on expoing enough. I needed at least 2/2 to engage that army in the middle. And I cleared so much of it out too, with weak ass, no medic bio.
I feel my biggest mistake was constantly pressuring, and not expanding. I HATE mech, and all forms of slow play. Pardon the BM. I leave on a good note. Probably one of my worst games I've played... I should've canceled that tech lab after the rax scouted it, and went into reactor medics, and cut the 5th rax.
I feel cutting the 5th rax, better defense, and reactor medics could at least have put me in a better position. I have issues with not attacking. Slow mech TvT makes my eyes bleed, and my apm drops to a snails pace. It is the ONLY thing that 100% makes me rage, lol.
http://drop.sc/112339
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On February 15 2012 11:41 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
If in a TvT your opponent is turtling, what is the best way to break their turtle, that is when you both have 200/200 armies and you are on about 6 bases? Even after securing the positional and economic advantage I always have trouble actually taking out their tanks. I have tried banshees, but with a million missile turrrets everywhere it doesn't work very well. I have also tried throwing wave after wave of non-tank units at my opponent, but I can never manage to get up the choke into their main. So what should I be doing to kill them?
If you and your opponent are in an ol' fashion tank line battle, air control is key. Dont try and straight A+move into his army (unless hes unsieged and out of position). Gaining air control you can then gain vision for your own tanks, in which he'll have to scan to see your tanks to return fire. Also if you have air control you can either try and do medivac bombs (dropping on his tanks, his tanks splash damage his own tanks) or you can even make a few BCs to break through these lines.
Tanks are also very immobile, which means if you have a mainly bio army, drops become your friend. If they have turret rings, you can even try and have a Raven use a PDD to eat up missile shots in order to drop your bio, and clean up the turrets and deal damage.
Bottom line, the 2 keys are (1) air control and (2) patience ^^
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So far in the new season, I've had three TvTs that have all been 30+ minutes, and I've lost every single one of them after building up a decent army and economic lead within the first 10-15 minutes. I feel like I just start to lose concentration and my apm and decision making really suffers after 30 or more minutes. I was wondering if there are any good builds that will win or lose the game within 10 minutes, as long as the game ends. I don't want to try some cheesy harassment build only for them to defend and have it transition in a semi-normal game. I'm looking for an extremely powerful 1 base build that is completely all in.
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On February 15 2012 11:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:Beyond bad control and being high for my first game of the day, what the fuck did I go wrong? I faced a proxy mara into straight up mech. I am the biggest mech hater. I failed on upgrades, and failed on expoing enough. I needed at least 2/2 to engage that army in the middle. And I cleared so much of it out too, with weak ass, no medic bio. I feel my biggest mistake was constantly pressuring, and not expanding. I HATE mech, and all forms of slow play. Pardon the BM. I leave on a good note. Probably one of my worst games I've played... I should've canceled that tech lab after the rax scouted it, and went into reactor medics, and cut the 5th rax. I feel cutting the 5th rax, better defense, and reactor medics could at least have put me in a better position. I have issues with not attacking. Slow mech TvT makes my eyes bleed, and my apm drops to a snails pace. It is the ONLY thing that 100% makes me rage, lol. http://drop.sc/112339
The 2 things that stood out to me was you didnt make SCVs constantly, and you needed to get more bio upgrades.
Not talking about the control at all, but you missed the 2nd supply depot, which if you made that, you could have easily held off that proxy with your 2 rax opener.
The reactor medivacs would have a lot, but make sure you can take out his vikings, or medivacs will still just drop like flies.
For the hellion run by you could have built bunkers near supply lines or at least to zone a little at the front of your natural. ^^
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On February 15 2012 13:28 scarper65 wrote:
So far in the new season, I've had three TvTs that have all been 30+ minutes, and I've lost every single one of them after building up a decent army and economic lead within the first 10-15 minutes. I feel like I just start to lose concentration and my apm and decision making really suffers after 30 or more minutes. I was wondering if there are any good builds that will win or lose the game within 10 minutes, as long as the game ends. I don't want to try some cheesy harassment build only for them to defend and have it transition in a semi-normal game. I'm looking for an extremely powerful 1 base build that is completely all in.
Do the Marine/Tank/Banshee push.
10 SD
12 Rax
13 Gas
16 OC
17 SD
Factory @ 100 Gas
Take 2nd gas
Reactor on Rax
Starport Tech lab
after you start 2nd Tank begin Siege
It should move out around 3-4 Tank 2 Banshee
Get Siege for your Tanks, Banshee can be cloakless (they are mainly to spot for your tanks) and can even snipe their tanks or run around and kill off SCV which forces them to pull their army to deal with your banshee, in which then you set tanks up in the front and push. You can even bring a few (6-8) scvs to repair tanks/banshees and even build bunkers ^^
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On February 15 2012 11:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:Beyond bad control and being high for my first game of the day, what the fuck did I go wrong? I faced a proxy mara into straight up mech. I am the biggest mech hater. I failed on upgrades, and failed on expoing enough. I needed at least 2/2 to engage that army in the middle. And I cleared so much of it out too, with weak ass, no medic bio. I feel my biggest mistake was constantly pressuring, and not expanding. I HATE mech, and all forms of slow play. Pardon the BM. I leave on a good note. Probably one of my worst games I've played... I should've canceled that tech lab after the rax scouted it, and went into reactor medics, and cut the 5th rax. I feel cutting the 5th rax, better defense, and reactor medics could at least have put me in a better position. I have issues with not attacking. Slow mech TvT makes my eyes bleed, and my apm drops to a snails pace. It is the ONLY thing that 100% makes me rage, lol. http://drop.sc/112339
I mean, you had a pretty horrible supply block at 19. That severely delayed your SCV production right off the bat. It seemed like this error just snowballed from here; he had his 2nd orbital up much, much faster, and his SCV production remained well ahead. The blue flame drop was just the icing on the cake -- you ended up 20 SCV's down, and that's just not something you can come back from in TvT.
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I have problems in TvT mainly. I really HATE these tank vikings fests. They also make the match alot longer. Anyone have any good builds on 1 base strategies vs Terran? I know Awmaface has posted the Marine Tank Banshee build but what if the other Terran player has vikings?
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On February 14 2012 23:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 19:36 TAAF wrote:
Don't get me wrong I love to open 1 rax FE, dual gas, factory asap. I just find myself dying to 1-1-1 a lot...
And yes you are right, opening with tanks is pretty bad and feels really weird... but it's for me the only way to defend a player going for fast tanks on 1 base. Indeed, in this case you want Tanks and Siege Mode as soon as possible. The key is to have air superiority so that he cannot advance and/or harass your units with Banshees. I often get a Reactor after 4-5 Marines when going this opening, so you can swap with Starport to produce Vikings faster if he tries some one-base 1-1-1 push.
That's a good idea. I'm going to do that in my future game! Thanks!
I guess you want to land the vikings once all of his Vikings are gone?
Do you also get siege mode asap? Or delay it for the double Viking production? (Maybe you can support both, I don't think so though xD)
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On February 15 2012 11:41 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
If in a TvT your opponent is turtling, what is the best way to break their turtle, that is when you both have 200/200 armies and you are on about 6 bases? Even after securing the positional and economic advantage I always have trouble actually taking out their tanks. I have tried banshees, but with a million missile turrrets everywhere it doesn't work very well. I have also tried throwing wave after wave of non-tank units at my opponent, but I can never manage to get up the choke into their main. So what should I be doing to kill them?
TvT late game is all about air and position. Always scout your opponent late game, you need to see if he is switching heavy into air. Also don't be afraid to throw down a lot of starports and a fusion core and go into heavy air.
You can also run around the map with a small tank force once you have a really good economy and try to siege his expansions a bit, he then has to move his army around and you might get into a better position with your tanks and can then capitalize on that.
Also you can have a huge army with no scvs so build a lot of ccs and only use mules.
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On February 15 2012 08:27 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:17 saaaa wrote:On February 15 2012 04:04 sAsImre wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ If we're speaking about 2base baneling bust with 30ish drones, which is an outdated build, then just having hellions/Marines and a few bunker (3-4) can hold it with proper control. You'll see it coming anyway because your hellions will notice an unusual amount of lings. The most common all in however will be a roach/bling/ling all in which is really powerful. The main problem here is to scout it because a smart zerg will just show you a few roaches in order to deter your hellions. So getting the information can be hard. I don't know if it's possible to hold it with fast medivacs, maybe if you out-micro your opponent really hard but it's not something I'd like to rely on. The best way to deal with this kind of all in is to get a fast tank with siege mode, a recent game between Stephano and ThorZaIN demonstrate perfectly how a single tank can help dramatically to deal with this. If you want to imitate ThorZaIN (which is a good idea :p), a build like 1rax CC, fac, CC, 4/6 hellions +2 rax, siege tank + siege mode should be safe against most of the all ins, you just need to distinguish a baneling bust, a roach ling and a roach ling bling with a few pieces of information. in fact i can go no gas FE -> 2 gas -> reactor Hellion instead of the 16 gas Hellions? i want to do 2 maybe 3 different styles with this 3 OC style. 1. into TMM with fast ghosts (like Bomber) 2. into Cloak Banshee into Thor+Bf hellion 3. directly into Mech I notice that many korean pro "just" go no gas fe into reactor hellion FE and don't do the 16 gas like thorzain. And i want to figure out what is the better style ^^ I use a pretty good opening to 1rax FE into mech, shamelessly stolen from MKP: 1rax FE - double gaz - reactor hellion - second fac asap (@100 gaz after 1st fac) produce siege tank and siege mode, get an armory asap and start +1 then +2. Then you transition either into a fast 3rd CC or add 3fac. The beauty of getting an early +2 is that Thors will two shot mutas, and that allows you to all in or expand easily against someone who goes muta. I don't really like Bomber's opening so I can't talk about it however, there is a thread in this section about it, a daya[9] daily and obviously some vods from his stream. Tho he really likes to mess around while streamzing so I'd be careful about it. As long as cloack banshees are concerned it's basically the same thing you'd do in TvT against a 1rax FE -3rax play. You get double gas then reactor hellion and a cloack banshee. just throw down your 3rd after that, before it'd be really greedy. The most important thing is to understand why those all ins are powerful and how your build can react to it. Then you try to balance your gas/mineral ratio according to your goal (if you go mech stockpilling gas isn't that bad for exemple).
Do you have any replays of the MKP style? i think this sounds interesting.. i normally do the mvp build with rely on thors+bf hellion in fact no gas fe -> reactor hellion fe into thor+bf hellion maybe tanks later...
I do a combination of the 3OC build of mkp, mvp and puma... it's like
no gas fe -> reactor hellion fe -> siegemode+tanks asap after 4hellions -> add 2 rax -> 2 ebays
i think you can hold any roach ling aggression with it because u will have 2-3 tanks with sigemode when it hits but i think about the thorzain 16 gas to be safe against ling bling attacks...
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After a lot of games and wins/losses I was wondering if someone would mind watching a replay of mine to tell what was wrong with my game?
http://drop.sc/112556
Also this is new to me: A siege rush is quicker than a Cloaked banshee? Or am I doing my build wrong?
http://drop.sc/112560
Also, both my opponents had skyrocketting APM's, what's the deal with that?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On February 15 2012 13:49 Awmaface wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 13:28 scarper65 wrote:
So far in the new season, I've had three TvTs that have all been 30+ minutes, and I've lost every single one of them after building up a decent army and economic lead within the first 10-15 minutes. I feel like I just start to lose concentration and my apm and decision making really suffers after 30 or more minutes. I was wondering if there are any good builds that will win or lose the game within 10 minutes, as long as the game ends. I don't want to try some cheesy harassment build only for them to defend and have it transition in a semi-normal game. I'm looking for an extremely powerful 1 base build that is completely all in. Do the Marine/Tank/Banshee push. 10 SD 12 Rax 13 Gas 16 OC 17 SD Factory @ 100 Gas Take 2nd gas Reactor on Rax Starport Tech lab after you start 2nd Tank begin Siege It should move out around 3-4 Tank 2 Banshee Get Siege for your Tanks, Banshee can be cloakless (they are mainly to spot for your tanks) and can even snipe their tanks or run around and kill off SCV which forces them to pull their army to deal with your banshee, in which then you set tanks up in the front and push. You can even bring a few (6-8) scvs to repair tanks/banshees and even build bunkers ^^
It's also worth noting that when using this build, if your opponent starts making vikings it can be worth it to make vikings of your own, and you have a reactor to help it out.
On February 15 2012 18:53 Daedalus SEA wrote:
I have problems in TvT mainly. I really HATE these tank vikings fests. They also make the match alot longer. Anyone have any good builds on 1 base strategies vs Terran? I know Awmaface has posted the Marine Tank Banshee build but what if the other Terran player has vikings?
Another solid all-in build that will end the game, one way or another, is a Proxy Thor Rush. It's a strong all-in, it's good against banshees, and if it doesn't work you will surely lose!
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 Oc
100 gas -> Factory, hidden somewhere near your opponent's base, such as in the gold base on shattered temple
Take another refinery
100 more gas -> armory
25 more gas -> Tech lab on Factory, then Thor
Pull ~10 scvs (leaving 2 on each geyser) and all your marines, and push out across the map to meet up with your thor. Use repair to win the game. Bank one scan if he took a quick gas in case of banshees-- wait for it to get close, then use the thor and marines to kill it quickly.
Also, if for whatever reason your opponent is making vikings or something you can laugh maniacally as your thor slaughters them relentlessly-- blood shall flow and it shall empower you, making you stronger, warmer, more energized. Soon there will be nobody left to stand against you. Soon the thor shall reign supreme.
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On February 15 2012 18:53 Daedalus SEA wrote:
I have problems in TvT mainly. I really HATE these tank vikings fests. They also make the match alot longer. Anyone have any good builds on 1 base strategies vs Terran? I know Awmaface has posted the Marine Tank Banshee build but what if the other Terran player has vikings?
If you want a more gimmicky all in, you can just 3 rax. With or without SCV pull.
10 sd
12 rax
13 gas
16 oc
17 sd
after 1st marine, make reactor on 1st rax
@~3:45 make 2 more Rax (Rax count 3)
3rd Supply depot and keep this scv builds sd to make sure you dont get supply blocked!
at 25 supply (3 marines are out, 2 are qued) stop SCV production
when 2 rax are complete, throw down 2 tech labs
When tech labs are complete, 2 Maraders and research Combat Shield (you can get stim, concuss, but i prefer shields)
Move out when you have 4 Mara and ~11 Marines (~6:25). youll hit your opp before siege is complete, and even before a banshee is out. You should be about equal in Marines, and at 7:10 your shields should kick in. If you spot tanks, maras blow up the tanks, bunkers you should also be able to breach since mara do so much damage to them (you can wait until 6 mara if there is a bunker and your scared, also waiting for these 2 additional mara will guarantee Combat Shield is up, but then they might have siege upgraded, which is why i dont like stim first since its 60 seconds longer then Combat Shield) ^^
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
If you do a 3 rax stim all-in, I highly recommend hiding your 2nd and 3rd rax, if not proxying them, simply because you can lose to a scan if you have them in your main. When I 3 rax stim all-in TvT I always hide raxes 2 and 3.
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On February 15 2012 20:40 KenDM wrote:After a lot of games and wins/losses I was wondering if someone would mind watching a replay of mine to tell what was wrong with my game? http://drop.sc/112556Also this is new to me: A siege rush is quicker than a Cloaked banshee? Or am I doing my build wrong? http://drop.sc/112560Also, both my opponents had skyrocketting APM's, what's the deal with that?
The easiest change i would make is make sure to have a scv building them supply depots. The 2 rax build order was off in the Toss game, and getting supply blocked gave you enough minerals to expo, but you really need units if your doing an aggressive opening. If your were supply block, the 2 rax could have been a lot better.
The TvT, yes, a Tank timing can hit you starting around 7:10 if they hit with 2 tanks with Siege. researching cloak usually finishes around the 8 min mark, so he will have a little bit of a lead. Something to also consider when doing a cloak banshee or tank build, get a reactor on your barracks, having more marines early will help holding off some of these pushes, or at least delay them until your banshee is ready to deal damage. And again the same supply blockage problem happened after your first Banshee was out (around 43 supply). Need those supply depots building!
If you are having big issues remembering supply depots, set up what i call a Union Worker, which is a single scv per base whose job it is to build supply depots. As soon as you have an idle scv, F1, b, s, click, no longer supply blocked for the future!
Dont ever worry about apm. ^^
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On February 16 2012 02:03 Blazinghand wrote:
If you do a 3 rax stim all-in, I highly recommend hiding your 2nd and 3rd rax, if not proxying them, simply because you can lose to a scan if you have them in your main. When I 3 rax stim all-in TvT I always hide raxes 2 and 3.
Agreed, try and hide the 3 rax all in, simply doing a basic 2 sd 1 rax wall off should be enough, and if they have a scv in your base, you usually can kill it before you add 2 more raxs. ^^
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hi im not sure if this has already been asked but what is the standard macro style in TvT if you could post a BO and replays if possible
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On February 16 2012 06:31 Nseven wrote:
hi im not sure if this has already been asked but what is the standard macro style in TvT if you could post a BO and replays if possible
My standard is the 1 gas 1-1-1 expo banshee. This is an economical banshee rush that does not suffer build order loss. You make a banshee, take a reasonably timed expansion, and you have the tech to defend an all-in. Banshee lets you harass your way into the game against quicker expo builds, and you have lots of tech. Expo starts at about 5:30.
TvT: 1 gas banshee expo
+ Show Spoiler +12 rax
13 refinery then three on gas
16 marine, constant marine production from here forwards.
17 orbital command
17 supply depot
18 factory
22 starport when factory finishes
22 tech lab on factory
23 supply depot to complete your wall.
after tech lab is finished, move factory off of it to make room for starport
27 Command Center
fly your starport onto your tech lab
30 banshee
From this point, take your 2nd gas, add production, and produce marines and hellions. You won't be producing gas units from your rax or factory really until you have your 2nd gas up. Make sure to react appropriately to your opponent's build using the scouting a banshee gives you.
Against other tech builds, you're fine. Against a fast expand, either CC first or off of 1 rax, you NEED to do damage, but with your banshee, this is totally doable-- practice microing banshees against marines.
I used this very build in my placement match for the season
Replay: http://drop.sc/112841
FP VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/c/24785
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On February 15 2012 13:14 Awmaface wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 11:41 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
If in a TvT your opponent is turtling, what is the best way to break their turtle, that is when you both have 200/200 armies and you are on about 6 bases? Even after securing the positional and economic advantage I always have trouble actually taking out their tanks. I have tried banshees, but with a million missile turrrets everywhere it doesn't work very well. I have also tried throwing wave after wave of non-tank units at my opponent, but I can never manage to get up the choke into their main. So what should I be doing to kill them? If you and your opponent are in an ol' fashion tank line battle, air control is key. Dont try and straight A+move into his army (unless hes unsieged and out of position). Gaining air control you can then gain vision for your own tanks, in which he'll have to scan to see your tanks to return fire. Also if you have air control you can either try and do medivac bombs (dropping on his tanks, his tanks splash damage his own tanks) or you can even make a few BCs to break through these lines. Tanks are also very immobile, which means if you have a mainly bio army, drops become your friend. If they have turret rings, you can even try and have a Raven use a PDD to eat up missile shots in order to drop your bio, and clean up the turrets and deal damage. Bottom line, the 2 keys are (1) air control and (2) patience ^^
Thank you. The raven idea will actually help me a lot with this, especially if my opponent is turtling their base, or on their natural too. I also didn't think of using BC's to help break the tank line.
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I really need some help against a terran who turtles. Here is a replay.\
Other than the fairly obvious blunders such as an awful supply block at 19, and the ghost in my main destroying everything at the end of the game, what could I have done to defend against something like this? I a m clueless as to how I could have not died to the battlecruisers, and somehow gotten through his turtle.
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EPT
