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On February 13 2012 01:51 MadeOfPotato wrote: Hey guys, NA Terran player here. As far as my upgrades from the tech labs, considering mainly factory and bio unit use, what is a generally good wat to prioritize my tech upgrades? I generally go something like: (Shells first if playing Protoss) > Shield > (Blue flame here if playing Zerg) > Siege Tech > Stimpack And then it branches off there based on the matchup. Is this a generally solid tech tree for some basic builds like 3 rax 1 fact, or should I be prioritizing some things over others? Obviously this will differ between the build I'm doing, but the majority of my builds don't require any tech upgrades besides these first anyways.
Sorry if that sounds a little convoluted...
3 rax 1 fact isn't a standard basic build.
It depends on race, and what opening you are going.
TvT If you go combat first, you're safer against BF/banshees. Stim you can be aggressive earlier. Shells if you proxy marauder, or they iechoic you. For me, I go CS/Stim, no shells unless bio vs mech.
TvP shells first if you go marauders at all. Combat shields if you plan to play defensively, as it helps against 4/5/6/7gate rushes. Stim to line up with medics, or for early pressure is the norm, I'd say. I personally tend to do stim after shells, and shields last, for some reason. I'm also uber aggressive. 2 rax can be aggressive with shells -> shields as well, but that's a reactor rax then TL rax. It's more marine focused, and only makes sense since it's an early timing, you go with the fast upgrade that aids in the major unit in your army at that time.
TvZ I'd say stim first, almost always. Beyond the rare case of a +1/CS marine push. Blue flame is an archaic and unneeded upgrade, unless you are dedicating to mech full. Otherwise, do not get it. It's a 150/150 sink that doesn't pay dividends at all well, as opposed to say, earlier stim.
My personal preference: TvZ - stim/cs in that order, to press with early elevators and hit before mutas. TvP shells/shield/stim for passive play or shells/stim/shield for aggression. TvT CS/stim to faster medics.
Thanks, really helped a lot. :D Just one question, about the TvZ part. Would you even get blue flame or even hellions at all in this matchup then, or do you perfer just some marines? If no blue flame, would it be better to start my first factory off with just a reactor then?
On February 13 2012 01:51 MadeOfPotato wrote: Hey guys, NA Terran player here. As far as my upgrades from the tech labs, considering mainly factory and bio unit use, what is a generally good wat to prioritize my tech upgrades? I generally go something like: (Shells first if playing Protoss) > Shield > (Blue flame here if playing Zerg) > Siege Tech > Stimpack And then it branches off there based on the matchup. Is this a generally solid tech tree for some basic builds like 3 rax 1 fact, or should I be prioritizing some things over others? Obviously this will differ between the build I'm doing, but the majority of my builds don't require any tech upgrades besides these first anyways.
Sorry if that sounds a little convoluted...
3 rax 1 fact isn't a standard basic build.
It depends on race, and what opening you are going.
TvT If you go combat first, you're safer against BF/banshees. Stim you can be aggressive earlier. Shells if you proxy marauder, or they iechoic you. For me, I go CS/Stim, no shells unless bio vs mech.
TvP shells first if you go marauders at all. Combat shields if you plan to play defensively, as it helps against 4/5/6/7gate rushes. Stim to line up with medics, or for early pressure is the norm, I'd say. I personally tend to do stim after shells, and shields last, for some reason. I'm also uber aggressive. 2 rax can be aggressive with shells -> shields as well, but that's a reactor rax then TL rax. It's more marine focused, and only makes sense since it's an early timing, you go with the fast upgrade that aids in the major unit in your army at that time.
TvZ I'd say stim first, almost always. Beyond the rare case of a +1/CS marine push. Blue flame is an archaic and unneeded upgrade, unless you are dedicating to mech full. Otherwise, do not get it. It's a 150/150 sink that doesn't pay dividends at all well, as opposed to say, earlier stim.
My personal preference: TvZ - stim/cs in that order, to press with early elevators and hit before mutas. TvP shells/shield/stim for passive play or shells/stim/shield for aggression. TvT CS/stim to faster medics.
Thanks, really helped a lot. :D Just one question, about the TvZ part. Would you even get blue flame or even hellions at all in this matchup then, or do you perfer just some marines? If no blue flame, would it be better to start my first factory off with just a reactor then?
Blue flame only if you go mech. I do reactor out hellions, but my TvZ is very, very odd. I do reaper/hellion into a double medic marine hellion reaper stim timing.
Yes, reactor hellions, with micro, can do just as much damage as BF, without all the investment.
I would say the norm is to reactor hellion FE, from there it's either double OC, or 3 rax 1 fac hellion/marine stim timing, 1-1-1 reactor hellion marine banshee, hellion marine elevator, etc etc.
Hello, I'm interested in playing mech in TvT but I have no idea how I should open up. Does anyone have a good replay I can study for learning to play mech? I'm masters league so I can be quite flexible i guess.
Hi, I've been having a lot of trouble with my decision making once i'm maxed. Generally I have good macro before I get maxed, but once I do, in every matchup, I have trouble with things like, where do I put my army, where/how many production facilities to add, and how i should go about trading against terrans with tanks, and protoss with AOE (I think its easiest to just drop zergs to death and that works for me w/e). I really need some help with this as my mechanics are solid, but have awful decision making past 19 or 20 minutes. Sorry if this post is really general, but anything would help me!
On February 13 2012 06:33 VAGZ wrote: Hello, I'm interested in playing mech in TvT but I have no idea how I should open up. Does anyone have a good replay I can study for learning to play mech? I'm masters league so I can be quite flexible i guess.
You can use Cloak Banshee expand, or 1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory as soon as possible → Starport (and then your follow-up depends on whether your opponent is agressive or not), or a gas first → 1-1-1 opening with things like Cloak-less Banshees, or Marine/Hellions elevators, etc., after which you transition to mech. In TvT, all roads lead to Rome.
I realize my build might be a little archaic, given its from six months ago, but I'm really uncomfortable with the Bomber-esque style thats become popular and I'd like to keep as much pressure as I can on the Z player.
I'm not sure how I lost that TvZ, but almost all of my losses come from games like that. Is it that I'm so far behind in upgrades that lets him push me back? What else could I have done better? I felt like my initial push and my drops were very good, but I wasn't able to fully capitalize on it. Should I have pulled back and pushed out again at 1/1?
On February 13 2012 06:33 VAGZ wrote: Hello, I'm interested in playing mech in TvT but I have no idea how I should open up. Does anyone have a good replay I can study for learning to play mech? I'm masters league so I can be quite flexible i guess.
You can use Cloak Banshee expand, or 1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory as soon as possible → Starport (and then your follow-up depends on whether your opponent is agressive or not), or a gas first → 1-1-1 opening with things like Cloak-less Banshees, or Marine/Hellions elevators, etc., after which you transition to mech. In TvT, all roads lead to Rome.
The "1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory as soon as possible" is risky if your opponent opens really aggressiv. I usually go with a 15 gas (to get a little bit of a faster cc) opening just like you do against zerg, execpt I get tanks right away. This is usually really save just because siege Tanks are so good defensively.
On February 13 2012 18:16 Jimmy Raynor wrote: Can anyone point me to the exact build order that demuslim has been doing with reactor hellions and 3 or 2 rax (not sure) push?
All the replays from IEM Brazil are already avaiable for download, you might search there!
1. I see many players float a building, like rax or factory, when engaging in battles. What is the purpose of this?
2. Bio question. The standard build order is 3 rax first....or is it not? And EBay, factory, starport, which one first? Am I right in saying rax first, then expand, then factory, starport, and lastly, Ebay?
3. Connected to question 2. How many rax per base? I see pros having 5 rax on 2 bases. Isnt this simply too few?
On February 13 2012 21:26 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Two T quesitons:
1. I see many players float a building, like rax or factory, when engaging in battles. What is the purpose of this?
Usually the building is originally there for scouting purposes, to see if its safe to engage, get a units count etc. But why a lot of players float this over an engaged army is hoping that some of the opponents shots will attack the building and not their own army. It acts as a buffer in most cases.
Floating buildings can also be used as a magnet to pull out the opp forces to engage, or pull away an army if you are getting ready to do drops/attack the front
2. Bio question. The standard build order is 3 rax first....or is it not?
3 rax is a 1 base play (assuming you also get addons for the 3 rax). Its really hard to transition out of it, but its a strong 1 base play, so depending on your play style can it be "standard", but a lot of higher end players no longer 3 rax.
And EBay, factory, starport, which one first? Am I right in saying rax first, then expand, then factory, starport, and lastly, Ebay?
This question has everything to do with match up and your own play style. Some people like getting a faster ebay and more rax before tech to SP, some like SP before ebay, and some like getting a 3rd before any of it. Again it depends on the match up, what is scouted, your play style, and even the map.
3. Connected to question 2. How many rax per base?
A rule of thumb is 3 production buildings per base. How many rax per base is also a question of teching up, and assuming you are going bio over mech (as mech only needs 1 rax) the rax count can change.
Break down of income: 1 Base ~800 minerals (+200 for mules) and ~200 gas per base per minute SCV Minerals per minute = 176 Marine Minerals per minute = 112 (multiple this number for the amount of production slots for marines, ie if you have a reactor rax, x2 = 224) supply depot Minerals per minute = 200
For the 3 rax (2 reactor 1 tech lab constant Marine production), the numbers look something like this: 176 - SCV 560 = 112*5 - Marines 200 - Supply Depots 936
I see pros having 5 rax on 2 bases. Isnt this simply too few?
See the above numbers real quick. Also pros will usually have upgrades going, and SP with reactor making Medivacs. Also pros try to also get expansions up unless they are doing a 2 base big push, so they want to be under utlization in order to build an additional CC.
On February 13 2012 06:33 VAGZ wrote: Hello, I'm interested in playing mech in TvT but I have no idea how I should open up. Does anyone have a good replay I can study for learning to play mech? I'm masters league so I can be quite flexible i guess.
You can use Cloak Banshee expand, or 1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory as soon as possible → Starport (and then your follow-up depends on whether your opponent is agressive or not), or a gas first → 1-1-1 opening with things like Cloak-less Banshees, or Marine/Hellions elevators, etc., after which you transition to mech. In TvT, all roads lead to Rome.
The "1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory as soon as possible" is risky if your opponent opens really aggressiv.
Not really. With proper scouting, you can fend off everything your opponent throws at you, including Reaper/Hellion/Medivac elevators, gas first Marine/Hellion/Banshees front poke, etc.
Ideally, when playing mech, you do not want to start with Tanks right away—they are costly, and because they are rather immobile, they give neither map control nor harass possibilities, and this passivity allows your opponent to play without having to fear anything in the next few minuts. (Blue Flame) Hellions and (Cloak) Banshees are better units to start mech, but of course, depending on your opening/your opponent's agressivity, you may have to get Tanks. In the 1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory → Starport opening (basically a delayed 1-1-1 after expansion), the purpose is to be able to build Tanks if necessary, but really, you skip them if you don't need them, i. e. if your opponent also went 1 rax FE, or CC first (in that case, you can tech Cloaked Banshees or Blue Flame Hellions straight away).
In TvP and TvT, I like to use a 1 rax expand into 4 rax, and then tech up into medivacs, and ghosts as well if I am playing TvP. I usually move out right after stim finishes, taking an expansion behind this, as I have found from watching my replays that almost always my opponent has no army then. If my push doesn't destroy the enemy I rebuild my army and push out once I have a decent medivac count, as well as tanks (TvT) or ghosts (TvP).When should I add an engineering bay or two if I like to play this style? Since I am pretty low level I am usually floating 700 minerals or so by the time stim finishes and I push out, so would that be a good time to build engineering bays?
On February 14 2012 10:46 Striker.superfreunde wrote: Hi again!
Is there any opening or pressure timing push against 3 gate robo into exe into Colossus?
Thank you!
If they are straight teching to Col on 1 base, it should mean they have a lot of Zealots, and Col. So really you can open up any build, and pressure with marines, but just make sure to run away. If they dont have sentries/high stalker count, you can usually use this information that they are teching up (usually to robo/col tech).
If they still are not making immortals, then you should try and get a SP up fast. The SP can make vikings and you can usually start poking with 4 vikings (and your army a little behind, atleast 2 medis also help). Since they are mostly Zealots if they are straight teching col on 1 base, the stalker count will be low, so you have a chance of picking off a col (best case scenario). After the Col is retreating/dead, you need to kite the main army the best you can using stutter step (or hellion bursts if you made hellions).
Note: Do not try and kill them immediately! At this point you should just get your own 2nd and deny theirs as much as possible. In most cases, the 3 gate Col play is such a huge all in, they will prob leave right away. But if they dont, get the pretty common unit comp of Marine/Mara/Medivac, and have about 4 Vikings per Col (rule of thumb).
If they open up more 3 gate pressure (lots of early stalkers) then the col will be delayed and you should pump out Mara if you can and bunker up. Be careful to not make JUST Mara, as if they went robo they can still make Immortals and thatll ruin your day.
You can transition in most of the common builds in TvP. A few weeks ago i did a epi on TvP overview that you should check out. around the 24:30 i discuss openings, but transition to the above if scouting the Col. Mara/Vikings are in general the key units for fast Col.
On February 14 2012 13:50 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: In TvP and TvT, I like to use a 1 rax expand into 4 rax, and then tech up into medivacs, and ghosts as well if I am playing TvP.
You cant support that much gas on 2 base effectively if you are keeping up with your Macro (keeping money low) Pick one or the other Medi vs Ghost.
I usually move out right after stim finishes, taking an expansion behind this, as I have found from watching my replays that almost always my opponent has no army then. If my push doesn't destroy the enemy I rebuild my army and push out once I have a decent medivac count, as well as tanks (TvT) or ghosts (TvP).When should I add an engineering bay or two if I like to play this style? Since I am pretty low level I am usually floating 700 minerals or so by the time stim finishes and I push out, so would that be a good time to build engineering bays?
Related to ebay timing, go double ebay probably before your 3rd CC. If you want a time, I would guess around the 12-14 min mark to throw them down. Dont forget the armory when the upgrades are 3/4ths done to start 2-2.
But without looking at a replay, work on your upper right management (looking at the top right section of the screen aka your Resources) and make sure they are very low, you should have moments of having 0-0.
If you want to hit hard with your medivac timing, go for +1 as well. Been helping me out greatly. If your build is tight you can hit around 10.00 with, stim, shields, shells and +1 with two medivacs.
On February 13 2012 06:33 VAGZ wrote: Hello, I'm interested in playing mech in TvT but I have no idea how I should open up. Does anyone have a good replay I can study for learning to play mech? I'm masters league so I can be quite flexible i guess.
You can use Cloak Banshee expand, or 1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory as soon as possible → Starport (and then your follow-up depends on whether your opponent is agressive or not), or a gas first → 1-1-1 opening with things like Cloak-less Banshees, or Marine/Hellions elevators, etc., after which you transition to mech. In TvT, all roads lead to Rome.
The "1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory as soon as possible" is risky if your opponent opens really aggressiv.
Not really. With proper scouting, you can fend off everything your opponent throws at you, including Reaper/Hellion/Medivac elevators, gas first Marine/Hellion/Banshees front poke, etc.
Ideally, when playing mech, you do not want to start with Tanks right away—they are costly, and because they are rather immobile, they give neither map control nor harass possibilities, and this passivity allows your opponent to play without having to fear anything in the next few minuts. (Blue Flame) Hellions and (Cloak) Banshees are better units to start mech, but of course, depending on your opening/your opponent's agressivity, you may have to get Tanks. In the 1 rax FE → dual gas → Factory → Starport opening (basically a delayed 1-1-1 after expansion), the purpose is to be able to build Tanks if necessary, but really, you skip them if you don't need them, i. e. if your opponent also went 1 rax FE, or CC first (in that case, you can tech Cloaked Banshees or Blue Flame Hellions straight away).
Don't get me wrong I love to open 1 rax FE, dual gas, factory asap. I just find myself dying to 1-1-1 a lot... And yes you are right, opening with tanks is pretty bad and feels really weird... but it's for me the only way to defend a player going for fast tanks on 1 base. But I guess I should try harder to hold with marines, bunkers and hellions
On February 14 2012 19:36 TAAF wrote: Don't get me wrong I love to open 1 rax FE, dual gas, factory asap. I just find myself dying to 1-1-1 a lot... And yes you are right, opening with tanks is pretty bad and feels really weird... but it's for me the only way to defend a player going for fast tanks on 1 base.
Indeed, in this case you want Tanks and Siege Mode as soon as possible. The key is to have air superiority so that he cannot advance and/or harass your units with Banshees. I often get a Reactor after 4-5 Marines when going this opening, so you can swap with Starport to produce Vikings faster if he tries some one-base 1-1-1 push.
EPT
