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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^
Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30, you need to double wall off and just delay the build. If its the 2 base same thing of setting up Defense and not dying. Since CCs can be built in your base, you should be able to make a few bunkers / tanks to hold off (dont know if you have factory with the Thorzain build).
After you hold off the bane bust and stabilize, just go back to doing your build unless you find other options to transition. Without a replay its hard to really go into what you need to cut from your build to hold on 1-2 base bane busts.
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On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30
No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT.
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On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^
If we're speaking about 2base baneling bust with 30ish drones, which is an outdated build, then just having hellions/Marines and a few bunker (3-4) can hold it with proper control. You'll see it coming anyway because your hellions will notice an unusual amount of lings.
The most common all in however will be a roach/bling/ling all in which is really powerful. The main problem here is to scout it because a smart zerg will just show you a few roaches in order to deter your hellions. So getting the information can be hard. I don't know if it's possible to hold it with fast medivacs, maybe if you out-micro your opponent really hard but it's not something I'd like to rely on.
The best way to deal with this kind of all in is to get a fast tank with siege mode, a recent game between Stephano and ThorZaIN demonstrate perfectly how a single tank can help dramatically to deal with this. If you want to imitate ThorZaIN (which is a good idea :p), a build like 1rax CC, fac, CC, 4/6 hellions +2 rax, siege tank + siege mode should be safe against most of the all ins, you just need to distinguish a baneling bust, a roach ling and a roach ling bling with a few pieces of information.
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On February 15 2012 04:04 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ If we're speaking about 2base baneling bust with 30ish drones, which is an outdated build, then just having hellions/Marines and a few bunker (3-4) can hold it with proper control. You'll see it coming anyway because your hellions will notice an unusual amount of lings. The most common all in however will be a roach/bling/ling all in which is really powerful. The main problem here is to scout it because a smart zerg will just show you a few roaches in order to deter your hellions. So getting the information can be hard. I don't know if it's possible to hold it with fast medivacs, maybe if you out-micro your opponent really hard but it's not something I'd like to rely on. The best way to deal with this kind of all in is to get a fast tank with siege mode, a recent game between Stephano and ThorZaIN demonstrate perfectly how a single tank can help dramatically to deal with this. If you want to imitate ThorZaIN (which is a good idea :p), a build like 1rax CC, fac, CC, 4/6 hellions +2 rax, siege tank + siege mode should be safe against most of the all ins, you just need to distinguish a baneling bust, a roach ling and a roach ling bling with a few pieces of information.
in fact i can go no gas FE -> 2 gas -> reactor Hellion instead of the 16 gas Hellions?
i want to do 2 maybe 3 different styles with this 3 OC style.
1. into TMM with fast ghosts (like Bomber)
2. into Cloak Banshee into Thor+Bf hellion
3. directly into Mech
I notice that many korean pro "just" go no gas fe into reactor hellion FE and don't do the 16 gas like thorzain. And i want to figure out what is the better style ^^
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On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT.
Im glad we agree, thanks for answering Saaaa's question ^^
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On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT.
Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow.
Those aren't fun.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun.
When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units.
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On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units.
There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes.
It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles.
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Hi, I was demoted out of masters this season and I feel my TvZ is to blame. I am trying to copy a build Jinro does essentially, and it seems like most of my games end in a similar way: to counter attacks.
If there is any chance someone could check these two replays out and point out what I could improve I would be grateful. Things I would like to know specifically:
1) Is it generally a good idea to get an earlier Armory for Thors if I scan a Spire and see no third yet?
2) Perhaps have my early 3rd base become a PF?
3) Am I being too aggressive in general? Am I using my army poorly/just making the wrong decisions with it?
Thanks in advance if anyone checks these out:
Game1: http://www.2shared.com/file/5SzdAiyg/loss_vs_Z_CloudKingdom1.html
Game2 (same map, but a little better): http://www.2shared.com/file/5-qGoAFJ/loss_vs_Z_CloudKingdom2.html
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units. There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes. It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles.
Yeah I mean if he's making a real 2 base attack with 30+ drones it's an entirely different category, but by then you'll have already started your third CC.
On February 15 2012 06:03 Fake)Plants wrote:Hi, I was demoted out of masters this season and I feel my TvZ is to blame. I am trying to copy a build Jinro does essentially, and it seems like most of my games end in a similar way: to counter attacks. If there is any chance someone could check these two replays out and point out what I could improve I would be grateful. Things I would like to know specifically: 1) Is it generally a good idea to get an Armory for Thors if I scan a Spire and see no third? 2) Perhaps have my early 3rd base become a PF? 3) Am I being too aggressive in general? Thanks in advance if anyone checks these out: Game1: http://www.2shared.com/file/5SzdAiyg/loss_vs_Z_CloudKingdom1.htmlGame2 (same map, but a little better): http://www.2shared.com/file/5-qGoAFJ/loss_vs_Z_CloudKingdom2.html
I'd love to take a look, but unfortunately my computer doesn't interact well with 2shared. Could you possibly use drop.sc? I think sc2replayed is fine as well, or star2.org.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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On February 15 2012 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units. There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes. It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles. Yeah I mean if he's making a real 2 base attack with 30+ drones it's an entirely different category, but by then you'll have already started your third CC.
When, I'd say, terrans are weakest in those 3 OC builds. My man henry, who floats in top 30-50 NA GM always roach bane busts any T he sees that does triple OC and hellions. I faced a Z who did it 2 games in a row yesterday. Without fast siege, or amazing bunker + wall placement and control, you're so fucked doing ANYTHING against roach bane busts.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units. There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes. It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles. Yeah I mean if he's making a real 2 base attack with 30+ drones it's an entirely different category, but by then you'll have already started your third CC. When, I'd say, terrans are weakest in those 3 OC builds. My man henry, who floats in top 30-50 NA GM always roach bane busts any T he sees that does triple OC and hellions. I faced a Z who did it 2 games in a row yesterday. Without fast siege, or amazing bunker + wall placement and control, you're so fucked doing ANYTHING against roach bane busts.
I could see that being effective. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate at the top of level of play though, since if this was a build the zerg could scout and counter perfectly, it wouldn't be used by like kas and those guys right? Or else they'd just lose every time they use it. If the statement is "terrans are weakest" I think it should be refined to "defending certain allins can be very tricky" as a more accurate statement of the drawback of a 3 OC build.
Hey FakeY took a look at your game. Here are my semi-comprehensive written notes:
+ Show Spoiler +
Fakey v a Zerg
TvZ
That map
12-- proxy rax
why are you doing
13 gas
delayed reactor for reactor hellion expand, got an overlord, had the option to bunker rush
didn't cut scvs.
2nd orbital finishes at 6:56
3rd obrital should finish at 8:13
11:45, 3rd orbital lifts off.
how was scv production
1st orbital has been making scvs for 11:10 - 670 seconds - 39.5 scvs
2nd orbital has been making scvs for 4:50 - 290 seconds - 17 scvs
3rd orbital has been making scvs for 3:32 - 210 seconds - 12.5 scvs
we should have 69 scvs
we have 53 scvs
we have cut 16 scvs-- that's a quarter of our scvs.
This is BAD. Do not cut scvs
step 1) try not to cut a quarter of your scvs
Other observerations: no combat shields
a couple of thoughts for your push around 13:30
1) leave a marine on the watchtower
2) don't stream reinforcements across the map
Why two armories? go for 2 engineering bays, 1 armory
Mech armor should be secondary to extra infantry upgrades
the reason you're banking tons of gas is that you're on 4 gasses and haven't teched to medivacs and you only have 1 factory. Add factories and starports to produce tech units, use engineering bays to spend gas on upgrades, consider getting combat shields
saturation issues: you're oversatured at your nat
The marine/tank push: what are you doing? You don't have a goal with this push, or if there is one I can't see it.
You slow down and turn back, letting him counter-attack. you also leave your wall down
I think you need to choose between pressuring him and retreating quickly, and really going balls to the wall. You took a long attack route that was low-risk, but difficult/slow to retreat along. as a result, he was able to counter. Your rallies were like they would be if you were all-inning him, so your wall was down, and when you didn't all-in, he could counter
And here's a VoD review of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308583994
Hope this helps
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On February 15 2012 04:17 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:04 sAsImre wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ If we're speaking about 2base baneling bust with 30ish drones, which is an outdated build, then just having hellions/Marines and a few bunker (3-4) can hold it with proper control. You'll see it coming anyway because your hellions will notice an unusual amount of lings. The most common all in however will be a roach/bling/ling all in which is really powerful. The main problem here is to scout it because a smart zerg will just show you a few roaches in order to deter your hellions. So getting the information can be hard. I don't know if it's possible to hold it with fast medivacs, maybe if you out-micro your opponent really hard but it's not something I'd like to rely on. The best way to deal with this kind of all in is to get a fast tank with siege mode, a recent game between Stephano and ThorZaIN demonstrate perfectly how a single tank can help dramatically to deal with this. If you want to imitate ThorZaIN (which is a good idea :p), a build like 1rax CC, fac, CC, 4/6 hellions +2 rax, siege tank + siege mode should be safe against most of the all ins, you just need to distinguish a baneling bust, a roach ling and a roach ling bling with a few pieces of information. in fact i can go no gas FE -> 2 gas -> reactor Hellion instead of the 16 gas Hellions? i want to do 2 maybe 3 different styles with this 3 OC style. 1. into TMM with fast ghosts (like Bomber) 2. into Cloak Banshee into Thor+Bf hellion 3. directly into Mech I notice that many korean pro "just" go no gas fe into reactor hellion FE and don't do the 16 gas like thorzain. And i want to figure out what is the better style ^^
I use a pretty good opening to 1rax FE into mech, shamelessly stolen from MKP:
1rax FE - double gaz - reactor hellion - second fac asap (@100 gaz after 1st fac) produce siege tank and siege mode, get an armory asap and start +1 then +2. Then you transition either into a fast 3rd CC or add 3fac. The beauty of getting an early +2 is that Thors will two shot mutas, and that allows you to all in or expand easily against someone who goes muta.
I don't really like Bomber's opening so I can't talk about it however, there is a thread in this section about it, a daya[9] daily and obviously some vods from his stream. Tho he really likes to mess around while streamzing so I'd be careful about it.
As long as cloack banshees are concerned it's basically the same thing you'd do in TvT against a 1rax FE -3rax play. You get double gas then reactor hellion and a cloack banshee. just throw down your 3rd after that, before it'd be really greedy.
The most important thing is to understand why those all ins are powerful and how your build can react to it. Then you try to balance your gas/mineral ratio according to your goal (if you go mech stockpilling gas isn't that bad for exemple).
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On February 15 2012 07:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units. There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes. It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles. Yeah I mean if he's making a real 2 base attack with 30+ drones it's an entirely different category, but by then you'll have already started your third CC. When, I'd say, terrans are weakest in those 3 OC builds. My man henry, who floats in top 30-50 NA GM always roach bane busts any T he sees that does triple OC and hellions. I faced a Z who did it 2 games in a row yesterday. Without fast siege, or amazing bunker + wall placement and control, you're so fucked doing ANYTHING against roach bane busts. I could see that being effective. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate at the top of level of play though, since if this was a build the zerg could scout and counter perfectly, it wouldn't be used by like kas and those guys right? Or else they'd just lose every time they use it. If the statement is "terrans are weakest" I think it should be refined to "defending certain allins can be very tricky" as a more accurate statement of the drawback of a 3 OC build.
Hey FakeY took a look at your game. Here are my semi-comprehensive written notes: + Show Spoiler +
Fakey v a Zerg
TvZ
That map
12-- proxy rax
why are you doing
13 gas
delayed reactor for reactor hellion expand, got an overlord, had the option to bunker rush
didn't cut scvs.
2nd orbital finishes at 6:56
3rd obrital should finish at 8:13
11:45, 3rd orbital lifts off.
how was scv production
1st orbital has been making scvs for 11:10 - 670 seconds - 39.5 scvs
2nd orbital has been making scvs for 4:50 - 290 seconds - 17 scvs
3rd orbital has been making scvs for 3:32 - 210 seconds - 12.5 scvs
we should have 69 scvs
we have 53 scvs
we have cut 16 scvs-- that's a quarter of our scvs.
This is BAD. Do not cut scvs
step 1) try not to cut a quarter of your scvs
Other observerations: no combat shields
a couple of thoughts for your push around 13:30
1) leave a marine on the watchtower
2) don't stream reinforcements across the map
Why two armories? go for 2 engineering bays, 1 armory
Mech armor should be secondary to extra infantry upgrades
the reason you're banking tons of gas is that you're on 4 gasses and haven't teched to medivacs and you only have 1 factory. Add factories and starports to produce tech units, use engineering bays to spend gas on upgrades, consider getting combat shields
saturation issues: you're oversatured at your nat
The marine/tank push: what are you doing? You don't have a goal with this push, or if there is one I can't see it.
You slow down and turn back, letting him counter-attack. you also leave your wall down
I think you need to choose between pressuring him and retreating quickly, and really going balls to the wall. You took a long attack route that was low-risk, but difficult/slow to retreat along. as a result, he was able to counter. Your rallies were like they would be if you were all-inning him, so your wall was down, and when you didn't all-in, he could counter
And here's a VoD review of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308583994Hope this helps
It's a coinflip, that flips more for them than terran. It requires a lot of bunkers and fast tanks to stop. At best, it resets tank count, and keeps T pinned to 2 base, 3 OC. Zerg can then transition to take 4 and 5 base, and go mutas and just run rampant. The roach ling, or roach bane to muta transition is the hardest to pick up the right timing, for me at least.
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On February 15 2012 07:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. + Show Spoiler +
When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units.
There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes. It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles. Yeah I mean if he's making a real 2 base attack with 30+ drones it's an entirely different category, but by then you'll have already started your third CC. When, I'd say, terrans are weakest in those 3 OC builds. My man henry, who floats in top 30-50 NA GM always roach bane busts any T he sees that does triple OC and hellions. I faced a Z who did it 2 games in a row yesterday. Without fast siege, or amazing bunker + wall placement and control, you're so fucked doing ANYTHING against roach bane busts. I could see that being effective. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate at the top of level of play though, since if this was a build the zerg could scout and counter perfectly, it wouldn't be used by like kas and those guys right? Or else they'd just lose every time they use it. If the statement is "terrans are weakest" I think it should be refined to "defending certain allins can be very tricky" as a more accurate statement of the drawback of a 3 OC build.
Hey FakeY took a look at your game. Here are my semi-comprehensive written notes: + Show Spoiler +Fakey v a Zerg TvZ That map 12-- proxy rax why are you doing 13 gas delayed reactor for reactor hellion expand, got an overlord, had the option to bunker rush didn't cut scvs. 2nd orbital finishes at 6:56 3rd obrital should finish at 8:13 11:45, 3rd orbital lifts off. how was scv production 1st orbital has been making scvs for 11:10 - 670 seconds - 39.5 scvs 2nd orbital has been making scvs for 4:50 - 290 seconds - 17 scvs 3rd orbital has been making scvs for 3:32 - 210 seconds - 12.5 scvs we should have 69 scvs we have 53 scvs we have cut 16 scvs-- that's a quarter of our scvs. This is BAD. Do not cut scvs step 1) try not to cut a quarter of your scvs Other observerations: no combat shields a couple of thoughts for your push around 13:30 1) leave a marine on the watchtower 2) don't stream reinforcements across the map Why two armories? go for 2 engineering bays, 1 armory Mech armor should be secondary to extra infantry upgrades the reason you're banking tons of gas is that you're on 4 gasses and haven't teched to medivacs and you only have 1 factory. Add factories and starports to produce tech units, use engineering bays to spend gas on upgrades, consider getting combat shields saturation issues: you're oversatured at your nat The marine/tank push: what are you doing? You don't have a goal with this push, or if there is one I can't see it. You slow down and turn back, letting him counter-attack. you also leave your wall down I think you need to choose between pressuring him and retreating quickly, and really going balls to the wall. You took a long attack route that was low-risk, but difficult/slow to retreat along. as a result, he was able to counter. Your rallies were like they would be if you were all-inning him, so your wall was down, and when you didn't all-in, he could counter And here's a VoD review of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308583994Hope this helps
Wow, thanks a lot for the advice. Looks like I was blind to the fact that my play was so sloppy. Seriously man thanks for the effort, will put a lot of this to work.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 15 2012 08:57 Fake)Plants wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 07:53 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 06:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:On February 15 2012 01:15 saaaa wrote:
i want to focus more on 3CC builds but is it possible to hold baneling busts with this build?
i think the 3CC opening of thorzain with 16 gas is quite nice because you dont delay your first hellions so much but i dont like his follow up ^^ Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. + Show Spoiler +
When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units.
There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes. It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles. Yeah I mean if he's making a real 2 base attack with 30+ drones it's an entirely different category, but by then you'll have already started your third CC. When, I'd say, terrans are weakest in those 3 OC builds. My man henry, who floats in top 30-50 NA GM always roach bane busts any T he sees that does triple OC and hellions. I faced a Z who did it 2 games in a row yesterday. Without fast siege, or amazing bunker + wall placement and control, you're so fucked doing ANYTHING against roach bane busts. I could see that being effective. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate at the top of level of play though, since if this was a build the zerg could scout and counter perfectly, it wouldn't be used by like kas and those guys right? Or else they'd just lose every time they use it. If the statement is "terrans are weakest" I think it should be refined to "defending certain allins can be very tricky" as a more accurate statement of the drawback of a 3 OC build.
Hey FakeY took a look at your game. Here are my semi-comprehensive written notes: + Show Spoiler +Fakey v a Zerg TvZ That map 12-- proxy rax why are you doing 13 gas delayed reactor for reactor hellion expand, got an overlord, had the option to bunker rush didn't cut scvs. 2nd orbital finishes at 6:56 3rd obrital should finish at 8:13 11:45, 3rd orbital lifts off. how was scv production 1st orbital has been making scvs for 11:10 - 670 seconds - 39.5 scvs 2nd orbital has been making scvs for 4:50 - 290 seconds - 17 scvs 3rd orbital has been making scvs for 3:32 - 210 seconds - 12.5 scvs we should have 69 scvs we have 53 scvs we have cut 16 scvs-- that's a quarter of our scvs. This is BAD. Do not cut scvs step 1) try not to cut a quarter of your scvs Other observerations: no combat shields a couple of thoughts for your push around 13:30 1) leave a marine on the watchtower 2) don't stream reinforcements across the map Why two armories? go for 2 engineering bays, 1 armory Mech armor should be secondary to extra infantry upgrades the reason you're banking tons of gas is that you're on 4 gasses and haven't teched to medivacs and you only have 1 factory. Add factories and starports to produce tech units, use engineering bays to spend gas on upgrades, consider getting combat shields saturation issues: you're oversatured at your nat The marine/tank push: what are you doing? You don't have a goal with this push, or if there is one I can't see it. You slow down and turn back, letting him counter-attack. you also leave your wall down I think you need to choose between pressuring him and retreating quickly, and really going balls to the wall. You took a long attack route that was low-risk, but difficult/slow to retreat along. as a result, he was able to counter. Your rallies were like they would be if you were all-inning him, so your wall was down, and when you didn't all-in, he could counter And here's a VoD review of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308583994Hope this helps Wow, thanks a lot for the advice. Looks like I was blind to the fact that my play was so sloppy. Seriously man thanks for the effort, will put a lot of this to work.
No problem, we all have sloppiness, and sometimes it's hard to see it yourself. I think that the scv cutting aside, a more purposeful marine/tank push (either more able to retreat after a poke, or more aggressive about going after the third), and earlier medivacs would have been great. I forgot to note that you did eventually get a 2nd ebay which is great, but I really don't think a 2nd armory is necessary that early for standard play. I like to ramp up my factories to have more tank production as I take more bases, and quicker medivacs would have helped.
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On February 15 2012 09:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 08:57 Fake)Plants wrote:On February 15 2012 07:53 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 06:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On February 15 2012 05:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 15 2012 03:51 TheDwf wrote:On February 15 2012 03:33 Awmaface wrote:
[quote]
Im not familiar with the Thorzain build you are talking about, but to hold off 1 base baneling bust that hits around 5:30 No one does 1-base Baneling bust. I mean, maybe in Gold league or lower, but at some point all Zergs go hatch first in ZvT. Or they just delay it slightly, and hit at like 7-8 minutes with 20-24 drones and make a 2 base bane bust that actually hurts, and waves and waves of lings follow. Those aren't fun. + Show Spoiler +
When doing any sort of build, if you scout the zerg going pool first (for a 1 base baneling bust) or if you scout him mining past 100 gas with a hatch first build (for a 2 base attack) you play more defensively. Taking a quick third CC is a reasonable build, especially on maps with choked naturals, but if you should scout a 1-basing zerg or a zerg who's not making drones, or massing lings, or mining a lot of gas (with your hellions or your scv), you should not take a quick third, and instead prepare for an all-in by making additional bunkers and producing units.
There are so many stronger all ins that come off two base that you won't be able to reliantly scout well, and with hellions or unit pokes. They require amazing luck in scans, and map control. IE, roach ling bane, or just roach bane timing pushes. It's very easy to pull from gas, or block a ramp/sim city a terran out. Scans are very important if you can't put your finger on their opening, and you're playing slow, defensive macro styles. Yeah I mean if he's making a real 2 base attack with 30+ drones it's an entirely different category, but by then you'll have already started your third CC. When, I'd say, terrans are weakest in those 3 OC builds. My man henry, who floats in top 30-50 NA GM always roach bane busts any T he sees that does triple OC and hellions. I faced a Z who did it 2 games in a row yesterday. Without fast siege, or amazing bunker + wall placement and control, you're so fucked doing ANYTHING against roach bane busts. I could see that being effective. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate at the top of level of play though, since if this was a build the zerg could scout and counter perfectly, it wouldn't be used by like kas and those guys right? Or else they'd just lose every time they use it. If the statement is "terrans are weakest" I think it should be refined to "defending certain allins can be very tricky" as a more accurate statement of the drawback of a 3 OC build.
Hey FakeY took a look at your game. Here are my semi-comprehensive written notes: + Show Spoiler +Fakey v a Zerg TvZ That map 12-- proxy rax why are you doing 13 gas delayed reactor for reactor hellion expand, got an overlord, had the option to bunker rush didn't cut scvs. 2nd orbital finishes at 6:56 3rd obrital should finish at 8:13 11:45, 3rd orbital lifts off. how was scv production 1st orbital has been making scvs for 11:10 - 670 seconds - 39.5 scvs 2nd orbital has been making scvs for 4:50 - 290 seconds - 17 scvs 3rd orbital has been making scvs for 3:32 - 210 seconds - 12.5 scvs we should have 69 scvs we have 53 scvs we have cut 16 scvs-- that's a quarter of our scvs. This is BAD. Do not cut scvs step 1) try not to cut a quarter of your scvs Other observerations: no combat shields a couple of thoughts for your push around 13:30 1) leave a marine on the watchtower 2) don't stream reinforcements across the map Why two armories? go for 2 engineering bays, 1 armory Mech armor should be secondary to extra infantry upgrades the reason you're banking tons of gas is that you're on 4 gasses and haven't teched to medivacs and you only have 1 factory. Add factories and starports to produce tech units, use engineering bays to spend gas on upgrades, consider getting combat shields saturation issues: you're oversatured at your nat The marine/tank push: what are you doing? You don't have a goal with this push, or if there is one I can't see it. You slow down and turn back, letting him counter-attack. you also leave your wall down I think you need to choose between pressuring him and retreating quickly, and really going balls to the wall. You took a long attack route that was low-risk, but difficult/slow to retreat along. as a result, he was able to counter. Your rallies were like they would be if you were all-inning him, so your wall was down, and when you didn't all-in, he could counter And here's a VoD review of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308583994Hope this helps Wow, thanks a lot for the advice. Looks like I was blind to the fact that my play was so sloppy. Seriously man thanks for the effort, will put a lot of this to work. No problem, we all have sloppiness, and sometimes it's hard to see it yourself. I think that the scv cutting aside, a more purposeful marine/tank push (either more able to retreat after a poke, or more aggressive about going after the third), and earlier medivacs would have been great. I forgot to note that you did eventually get a 2nd ebay which is great, but I really don't think a 2nd armory is necessary that early for standard play. I like to ramp up my factories to have more tank production as I take more bases, and quicker medivacs would have helped.
Well that second armory was a mistake, not part of my plans haha, but that just falls under that sloppiness umbrella. I need to develop a better game plan in order to play more efficiently, and you've given me a skeleton to work with at least!
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If in a TvT your opponent is turtling, what is the best way to break their turtle, that is when you both have 200/200 armies and you are on about 6 bases? Even after securing the positional and economic advantage I always have trouble actually taking out their tanks. I have tried banshees, but with a million missile turrrets everywhere it doesn't work very well. I have also tried throwing wave after wave of non-tank units at my opponent, but I can never manage to get up the choke into their main. So what should I be doing to kill them?
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EPT
