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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 28 2011 02:04 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 17:54 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 11:19 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 07:16 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 05:56 Squigly wrote:
How many SCVs is good at 10 min?
I play a 2 rax expo in tvp and drop my expo at 6 min, Generally up and running by 9 as i make it in base.
On a side note i find it annoying that a T expo takes a full minute longer to go up than a P one on maps where you cant build it at your nat due to losing to 3 gate pressure etc.
I am for 35 at 10 min and often get that, rarely more. Constsnt produciton off 1 base i should have 41 by 10 min so i dont mind missing that few to get expo and stim/conc etc.
Tbh i think ive answered my own question lol. 35 is fine as with mules on 2 bases that will never put me behind
If you start your expo at 6:00, by 10:00 you should have 48 scvs, since the 2nd CC will make a few also by then. Try to have constant scv production; 35 and 48 are very different numbers. I appreciate the help, but your math is incorrect. No possible way you could have more than 45, and its not very feasible to have more than 40 tbh. 40 would be awesome SC production, barely missing any time at all apart from the needed couple for stim etc. 35 includes missing the odd 1 or 2 due to micro, and 1 SB. I think getting supply blocked once in the first 100 supply is fine. I tsnot optimal, but an 80 supply SB really isnt that bad. You are right insofar as my math is incorrect. Starting an expo at 6:00, it's not 48 that you can get, but rather, 45 (because you cut a few scvs while making the orbital). On the other hand, you say that it's not very feasible to have more than 40... but on my first try I easily got 45. 40 is shitty scv production because you cut 5 scvs for no reason. 35 scvs, your production target, is not good because you cut 1 scv every minute, or 1 in 4 scvs.45 scvs in 10 minutes, expoing at 6:00 (a pretty late expo): http://www.livestream.com/blazinghand/video?clipId=pla_a2e7bdfa-b695-4eed-9c2c-ee227b5bf916So... whereas I was off by 3 scvs in my estimation due to forgetting about the 2nd orbital time... you're still off by 10 scvs. this is roughly 20% of your economy. Are you really OK with that? Getting supply blocked once is NEVER ok in your first 100 supply. Also, what? cutting scvs to get stim? >.> Id actually forgotten about the cutting scvs for oribtal time, so its more like 43. Say i cut 3 scvs in the first 10 min. Thats obviously reasonable. My goal is now 40. Getting supply blocked puts me down maybe 2 or 3 scvs. Lol at 6 min expo being late. Also getting supply blocked once isnt a game changer. I cut scvs for: Stim, a bunker or 2 to defend against a 3 gate expo push, i dunno mabye am early factory for quick meds. Overall 35 is fine. Watch Pro TvP, do they have more than 40? Very rarely. I dont need any more answers. I appreciate the input. But i have my answer  If I could have 40, well go me, those 5 scvs are not really gonna change the outcome of a game.
It's not "more like 43" because of the Orbital; the number of scvs you can make is 48 if you don't make an orbital, 45 if you do. You either cut SCVs or you don't; cutting 1 or 2 happens, but cutting all the way down to 40... that's huge. If you make only 40 SCVs, you're still cutting 10% of the time. 45 scvs is optimal, 43 is acceptable for good macro, and 40 is what you want to do if you 'd like to arbitrarily give your opponent at 10% economic advantage.
You claimed that more than 40 scvs happens "Very rarely" in pro games...
So, at your behest, I ARBITRARILY PICKED THE FIRST TvP ON GOMTV:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/66064
zenexbyun vs nshseotassadar
Here's what happens to byun's scv count:
loses an scv at 5:30
and another at 5:35 during his bunker rush.
starts his command center a little later than 6:00 (a 2 rax bunker rush expo instead of a 1 rax FE)
At 10:00 he has 41 scvs, DESPITE having lost 2, AND DESPITE the later expansion. This means that he had 43+ scvs if he hadn't lost any.
So you say Pro TvP "very rarely" has more than 40? If byun hadn't suicidef 2 scvs during his bunker rush, he'd have had 43. Byun isn't the best Terran player, either; despite being an excellent pro, there are better than him-- he wouldn't cut at all and would be at 45 . I'd think that getting supply blocked and cutting 10% of your scvs isn't normal in high level play, and cutting scvs to make bunkers isn't normal either, for me OR for professionals.
There are very, very few game mechanics as important as constant SCV production. I encourage you to work towards a goal of not cutting scvs and not getting supply blocked.
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On August 28 2011 02:15 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 02:03 Numy wrote:On August 28 2011 02:00 Maxie wrote:
Quick 2 rax (TvZ) question: how do you know when it's time to end the aggression and go home?
I guess it's very risky to continue the aggression if you lose your scvs building the bunker, or if there's a spine crawler going down, but I'd like some general 2raxing advice. Just go out and play it. You will die a few times and learn or you will pull back too early and lose later coz of it. Either way you gaining the experience you need. No real way to figure out gamesense without playing. Noone can tell you how to judge a game while you playing. Had a feeling that I would get a response like that, I guess I'll just go out there and practice it... so far I haven't had great success with it, though, either I deal no damage at all or I kill off his natural, go home thinking that my opponent is way behind and macro up only to realize he wasn't that much behind at all. My zerg friend who is high masters says that I should keep being aggressive after a successful 2rax, thoughts on that?
Passive aggressive. Just take map towers and control. Don't commit to his base.
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On August 28 2011 03:32 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 02:04 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 17:54 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 11:19 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 07:16 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 05:56 Squigly wrote:
How many SCVs is good at 10 min?
I play a 2 rax expo in tvp and drop my expo at 6 min, Generally up and running by 9 as i make it in base.
On a side note i find it annoying that a T expo takes a full minute longer to go up than a P one on maps where you cant build it at your nat due to losing to 3 gate pressure etc.
I am for 35 at 10 min and often get that, rarely more. Constsnt produciton off 1 base i should have 41 by 10 min so i dont mind missing that few to get expo and stim/conc etc.
Tbh i think ive answered my own question lol. 35 is fine as with mules on 2 bases that will never put me behind
If you start your expo at 6:00, by 10:00 you should have 48 scvs, since the 2nd CC will make a few also by then. Try to have constant scv production; 35 and 48 are very different numbers. I appreciate the help, but your math is incorrect. No possible way you could have more than 45, and its not very feasible to have more than 40 tbh. 40 would be awesome SC production, barely missing any time at all apart from the needed couple for stim etc. 35 includes missing the odd 1 or 2 due to micro, and 1 SB. I think getting supply blocked once in the first 100 supply is fine. I tsnot optimal, but an 80 supply SB really isnt that bad. You are right insofar as my math is incorrect. Starting an expo at 6:00, it's not 48 that you can get, but rather, 45 (because you cut a few scvs while making the orbital). On the other hand, you say that it's not very feasible to have more than 40... but on my first try I easily got 45. 40 is shitty scv production because you cut 5 scvs for no reason. 35 scvs, your production target, is not good because you cut 1 scv every minute, or 1 in 4 scvs.45 scvs in 10 minutes, expoing at 6:00 (a pretty late expo): http://www.livestream.com/blazinghand/video?clipId=pla_a2e7bdfa-b695-4eed-9c2c-ee227b5bf916So... whereas I was off by 3 scvs in my estimation due to forgetting about the 2nd orbital time... you're still off by 10 scvs. this is roughly 20% of your economy. Are you really OK with that? Getting supply blocked once is NEVER ok in your first 100 supply. Also, what? cutting scvs to get stim? >.> Id actually forgotten about the cutting scvs for oribtal time, so its more like 43. Say i cut 3 scvs in the first 10 min. Thats obviously reasonable. My goal is now 40. Getting supply blocked puts me down maybe 2 or 3 scvs. Lol at 6 min expo being late. Also getting supply blocked once isnt a game changer. I cut scvs for: Stim, a bunker or 2 to defend against a 3 gate expo push, i dunno mabye am early factory for quick meds. Overall 35 is fine. Watch Pro TvP, do they have more than 40? Very rarely. I dont need any more answers. I appreciate the input. But i have my answer If I could have 40, well go me, those 5 scvs are not really gonna change the outcome of a game. It's not "more like 43" because of the Orbital; the number of scvs you can make is 48 if you don't make an orbital, 45 if you do. You either cut SCVs or you don't; cutting 1 or 2 happens, but cutting all the way down to 40... that's huge. If you make only 40 SCVs, you're still cutting 10% of the time. 45 scvs is optimal, 43 is acceptable for good macro, and 40 is what you want to do if you 'd like to arbitrarily give your opponent at 10% economic advantage. You claimed that more than 40 scvs happens "Very rarely" in pro games... So, at your behest, I ARBITRARILY PICKED THE FIRST TvP ON GOMTV: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/66064zenexbyun vs nshseotassadar Here's what happens to byun's scv count: loses an scv at 5:30 and another at 5:35 during his bunker rush. starts his command center a little later than 6:00 (a 2 rax bunker rush expo instead of a 1 rax FE) At 10:00 he has 41 scvs, DESPITE having lost 2, AND DESPITE the later expansion. This means that he had 43+ scvs if he hadn't lost any. So you say Pro TvP "very rarely" has more than 40? If byun hadn't suicidef 2 scvs during his bunker rush, he'd have had 43. Byun isn't the best Terran player, either; despite being an excellent pro, there are better than him-- he wouldn't cut at all and would be at 45 . I'd think that getting supply blocked and cutting 10% of your scvs isn't normal in high level play, and cutting scvs to make bunkers isn't normal either, for me OR for professionals. There are very, very few game mechanics as important as constant SCV production. I encourage you to work towards a goal of not cutting scvs and not getting supply blocked.
Wow aggressive. you clearly didnt read my post. I said thanks, but i dont need more advice. So again, thanks for the post, but i dont need more advice.
I will respond to your post even though your being a dick for little reason (that i can think of at least):
1) I said i know i should have 40. 40 is good. 40 is ive done great. Go me. 35 is fine. It really is. Maybe not at pro level but at diamond/master it is.
2) Also its intersting you discount his bunker, and then ignore mine. Good effort.
3) You say he has 41, and is a good pro. Hmm so I should have 41 too? Thats follows. I should also never get SB. I should have my builds perfect. Emp perfectly, concave nicely, while dropping.
I thought i said i dont really have an issue being SB once in the first 100 supply. Ill check. Oh yes, i did. Thanks for reading my post before posting. I make mistakes, and getting SB once is so small compared to others i really dont care about it for now.
4) Are you saying every tvp i should 1 rax FE. You say it like everything apart form it is some weird build thats having a really late expo. How many 1 rax expos have you seen at this mlg. Is it most of TvP? I thought not.
5) Ive just realised you think im a pro. Im actually not. Sorry for the confusion. Now I have clarified that, and youve read my posts, i say again. Thank you for the input. Please Please Please stop posting replies. Youve gone out of your way to try and help. Thanks. I honestly appreciate the effort. But i dont want anymore replies.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 28 2011 04:42 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 03:32 Blazinghand wrote:On August 28 2011 02:04 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 17:54 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 11:19 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 07:16 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 05:56 Squigly wrote:
How many SCVs is good at 10 min?
I play a 2 rax expo in tvp and drop my expo at 6 min, Generally up and running by 9 as i make it in base.
On a side note i find it annoying that a T expo takes a full minute longer to go up than a P one on maps where you cant build it at your nat due to losing to 3 gate pressure etc.
I am for 35 at 10 min and often get that, rarely more. Constsnt produciton off 1 base i should have 41 by 10 min so i dont mind missing that few to get expo and stim/conc etc.
Tbh i think ive answered my own question lol. 35 is fine as with mules on 2 bases that will never put me behind
If you start your expo at 6:00, by 10:00 you should have 48 scvs, since the 2nd CC will make a few also by then. Try to have constant scv production; 35 and 48 are very different numbers. I appreciate the help, but your math is incorrect. No possible way you could have more than 45, and its not very feasible to have more than 40 tbh. 40 would be awesome SC production, barely missing any time at all apart from the needed couple for stim etc. 35 includes missing the odd 1 or 2 due to micro, and 1 SB. I think getting supply blocked once in the first 100 supply is fine. I tsnot optimal, but an 80 supply SB really isnt that bad. You are right insofar as my math is incorrect. Starting an expo at 6:00, it's not 48 that you can get, but rather, 45 (because you cut a few scvs while making the orbital). On the other hand, you say that it's not very feasible to have more than 40... but on my first try I easily got 45. 40 is shitty scv production because you cut 5 scvs for no reason. 35 scvs, your production target, is not good because you cut 1 scv every minute, or 1 in 4 scvs.45 scvs in 10 minutes, expoing at 6:00 (a pretty late expo): http://www.livestream.com/blazinghand/video?clipId=pla_a2e7bdfa-b695-4eed-9c2c-ee227b5bf916So... whereas I was off by 3 scvs in my estimation due to forgetting about the 2nd orbital time... you're still off by 10 scvs. this is roughly 20% of your economy. Are you really OK with that? Getting supply blocked once is NEVER ok in your first 100 supply. Also, what? cutting scvs to get stim? >.> Id actually forgotten about the cutting scvs for oribtal time, so its more like 43. Say i cut 3 scvs in the first 10 min. Thats obviously reasonable. My goal is now 40. Getting supply blocked puts me down maybe 2 or 3 scvs. Lol at 6 min expo being late. Also getting supply blocked once isnt a game changer. I cut scvs for: Stim, a bunker or 2 to defend against a 3 gate expo push, i dunno mabye am early factory for quick meds. Overall 35 is fine. Watch Pro TvP, do they have more than 40? Very rarely. I dont need any more answers. I appreciate the input. But i have my answer If I could have 40, well go me, those 5 scvs are not really gonna change the outcome of a game. It's not "more like 43" because of the Orbital; the number of scvs you can make is 48 if you don't make an orbital, 45 if you do. You either cut SCVs or you don't; cutting 1 or 2 happens, but cutting all the way down to 40... that's huge. If you make only 40 SCVs, you're still cutting 10% of the time. 45 scvs is optimal, 43 is acceptable for good macro, and 40 is what you want to do if you 'd like to arbitrarily give your opponent at 10% economic advantage. You claimed that more than 40 scvs happens "Very rarely" in pro games... So, at your behest, I ARBITRARILY PICKED THE FIRST TvP ON GOMTV: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/66064zenexbyun vs nshseotassadar Here's what happens to byun's scv count: loses an scv at 5:30 and another at 5:35 during his bunker rush. starts his command center a little later than 6:00 (a 2 rax bunker rush expo instead of a 1 rax FE) At 10:00 he has 41 scvs, DESPITE having lost 2, AND DESPITE the later expansion. This means that he had 43+ scvs if he hadn't lost any. So you say Pro TvP "very rarely" has more than 40? If byun hadn't suicidef 2 scvs during his bunker rush, he'd have had 43. Byun isn't the best Terran player, either; despite being an excellent pro, there are better than him-- he wouldn't cut at all and would be at 45 . I'd think that getting supply blocked and cutting 10% of your scvs isn't normal in high level play, and cutting scvs to make bunkers isn't normal either, for me OR for professionals. There are very, very few game mechanics as important as constant SCV production. I encourage you to work towards a goal of not cutting scvs and not getting supply blocked. Wow aggressive. you clearly didnt read my post. I said thanks, but i dont need more advice. So again, thanks for the post, but i dont need more advice. I will respond to your post even though your being a dick for little reason (that i can think of at least): 1) I said i know i should have 40. 40 is good. 40 is ive done great. Go me. 35 is fine. It really is. Maybe not at pro level but at diamond/master it is. 2) Also its intersting you discount his bunker, and then ignore mine. Good effort. 3) You say he has 41, and is a good pro. Hmm so I should have 41 too? Thats follows. I should also never get SB. I should have my builds perfect. Emp perfectly, concave nicely, while dropping. I thought i said i dont really have an issue being SB once in the first 100 supply. Ill check. Oh yes, i did. Thanks for reading my post before posting. I make mistakes, and getting SB once is so small compared to others i really dont care about it for now. 4) Are you saying every tvp i should 1 rax FE. You say it like everything apart form it is some weird build thats having a really late expo. How many 1 rax expos have you seen at this mlg. Is it most of TvP? I thought not. 5) Ive just realised you think im a pro. Im actually not. Sorry for the confusion. Now I have clarified that, and youve read my posts, i say again. Thank you for the input. Please Please Please stop posting replies. Youve gone out of your way to try and help. Thanks. I honestly appreciate the effort. But i dont want anymore replies.
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as a dick or aggressive  Sorry... I'm just trying to be helpful.
1) I think that producing scvs constantly is pretty easy, and that anyone in diamond league and above should be able to do it, and anyone who cant should focus on that ASAP as a crucial mechanical skill.
2) I do not make any statements regarding his bunker; I talk about the scvs he lost while trying to build it. If you bunker rush and lose an scv, then yes, you'll be down an scv. However, if you don't bunker rush, or if you bunker rush and don't lose an scv, then you shouldn't be down an scv. In fact, if you bunker your own front (as is pretty normal) there's no reason you should lose an scv or cut an scv.
3) He made 43 by the 10:00 mark... but the thing is, it's substantially easier to make scvs than it is to EMP, concave, drop, or anything. To have constant scv production takes 4 apm... you should really hammer that down. Also, getting supply blocked in the first 100 food is an enormous problem. The number of timing attacks that happen in the early game that can crush a guy who gets supply blocked at the right time is enormous; and to discount this issue is a huge mistake.
4) I think that a 2 rax pressure attack that makes a bunker and brings 2 scvs will have a much later expansion than a 1 rax FE, which I consider pretty standard on large maps. I'm sorry if my implication was that anything other than 1 rax FE was bad; rather I meant, a 6:00 expand is considered pretty "late" or "safe," and other standard builds like 1 gate FE will have an economic advantage over this build. My bad.
5) Finally, I don't think you're a pro-- you're clearly not if your initial thought is 35 scvs at 10:00 is OK, and you refine this only to 40 when it's clear that 45 is what is possible with a 6:00 expo. I think you're a player who's trying to improve. An important element of improving is not cutting 10% of your scvs.
As long as you reply and put words in my mouth, I will reply and clarify myself. When you stop attributing statements to me that I didn't make, I'll consider not helping people who need help. But I have a basic responsibility to at the very least address claims about what I've said, especially if I believe I'm being incorrectly quoted.
Hope this helps.
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On August 28 2011 04:54 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 04:42 Squigly wrote:On August 28 2011 03:32 Blazinghand wrote:On August 28 2011 02:04 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 17:54 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 11:19 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 07:16 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 05:56 Squigly wrote:
How many SCVs is good at 10 min?
I play a 2 rax expo in tvp and drop my expo at 6 min, Generally up and running by 9 as i make it in base.
On a side note i find it annoying that a T expo takes a full minute longer to go up than a P one on maps where you cant build it at your nat due to losing to 3 gate pressure etc.
I am for 35 at 10 min and often get that, rarely more. Constsnt produciton off 1 base i should have 41 by 10 min so i dont mind missing that few to get expo and stim/conc etc.
Tbh i think ive answered my own question lol. 35 is fine as with mules on 2 bases that will never put me behind
If you start your expo at 6:00, by 10:00 you should have 48 scvs, since the 2nd CC will make a few also by then. Try to have constant scv production; 35 and 48 are very different numbers. I appreciate the help, but your math is incorrect. No possible way you could have more than 45, and its not very feasible to have more than 40 tbh. 40 would be awesome SC production, barely missing any time at all apart from the needed couple for stim etc. 35 includes missing the odd 1 or 2 due to micro, and 1 SB. I think getting supply blocked once in the first 100 supply is fine. I tsnot optimal, but an 80 supply SB really isnt that bad. You are right insofar as my math is incorrect. Starting an expo at 6:00, it's not 48 that you can get, but rather, 45 (because you cut a few scvs while making the orbital). On the other hand, you say that it's not very feasible to have more than 40... but on my first try I easily got 45. 40 is shitty scv production because you cut 5 scvs for no reason. 35 scvs, your production target, is not good because you cut 1 scv every minute, or 1 in 4 scvs.45 scvs in 10 minutes, expoing at 6:00 (a pretty late expo): http://www.livestream.com/blazinghand/video?clipId=pla_a2e7bdfa-b695-4eed-9c2c-ee227b5bf916So... whereas I was off by 3 scvs in my estimation due to forgetting about the 2nd orbital time... you're still off by 10 scvs. this is roughly 20% of your economy. Are you really OK with that? Getting supply blocked once is NEVER ok in your first 100 supply. Also, what? cutting scvs to get stim? >.> Id actually forgotten about the cutting scvs for oribtal time, so its more like 43. Say i cut 3 scvs in the first 10 min. Thats obviously reasonable. My goal is now 40. Getting supply blocked puts me down maybe 2 or 3 scvs. Lol at 6 min expo being late. Also getting supply blocked once isnt a game changer. I cut scvs for: Stim, a bunker or 2 to defend against a 3 gate expo push, i dunno mabye am early factory for quick meds. Overall 35 is fine. Watch Pro TvP, do they have more than 40? Very rarely. I dont need any more answers. I appreciate the input. But i have my answer If I could have 40, well go me, those 5 scvs are not really gonna change the outcome of a game. It's not "more like 43" because of the Orbital; the number of scvs you can make is 48 if you don't make an orbital, 45 if you do. You either cut SCVs or you don't; cutting 1 or 2 happens, but cutting all the way down to 40... that's huge. If you make only 40 SCVs, you're still cutting 10% of the time. 45 scvs is optimal, 43 is acceptable for good macro, and 40 is what you want to do if you 'd like to arbitrarily give your opponent at 10% economic advantage. You claimed that more than 40 scvs happens "Very rarely" in pro games... So, at your behest, I ARBITRARILY PICKED THE FIRST TvP ON GOMTV: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/66064zenexbyun vs nshseotassadar Here's what happens to byun's scv count: loses an scv at 5:30 and another at 5:35 during his bunker rush. starts his command center a little later than 6:00 (a 2 rax bunker rush expo instead of a 1 rax FE) At 10:00 he has 41 scvs, DESPITE having lost 2, AND DESPITE the later expansion. This means that he had 43+ scvs if he hadn't lost any. So you say Pro TvP "very rarely" has more than 40? If byun hadn't suicidef 2 scvs during his bunker rush, he'd have had 43. Byun isn't the best Terran player, either; despite being an excellent pro, there are better than him-- he wouldn't cut at all and would be at 45 . I'd think that getting supply blocked and cutting 10% of your scvs isn't normal in high level play, and cutting scvs to make bunkers isn't normal either, for me OR for professionals. There are very, very few game mechanics as important as constant SCV production. I encourage you to work towards a goal of not cutting scvs and not getting supply blocked. Wow aggressive. you clearly didnt read my post. I said thanks, but i dont need more advice. So again, thanks for the post, but i dont need more advice. I will respond to your post even though your being a dick for little reason (that i can think of at least): 1) I said i know i should have 40. 40 is good. 40 is ive done great. Go me. 35 is fine. It really is. Maybe not at pro level but at diamond/master it is. 2) Also its intersting you discount his bunker, and then ignore mine. Good effort. 3) You say he has 41, and is a good pro. Hmm so I should have 41 too? Thats follows. I should also never get SB. I should have my builds perfect. Emp perfectly, concave nicely, while dropping. I thought i said i dont really have an issue being SB once in the first 100 supply. Ill check. Oh yes, i did. Thanks for reading my post before posting. I make mistakes, and getting SB once is so small compared to others i really dont care about it for now. 4) Are you saying every tvp i should 1 rax FE. You say it like everything apart form it is some weird build thats having a really late expo. How many 1 rax expos have you seen at this mlg. Is it most of TvP? I thought not. 5) Ive just realised you think im a pro. Im actually not. Sorry for the confusion. Now I have clarified that, and youve read my posts, i say again. Thank you for the input. Please Please Please stop posting replies. Youve gone out of your way to try and help. Thanks. I honestly appreciate the effort. But i dont want anymore replies. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as a dick or aggressive Sorry... I'm just trying to be helpful. 1) I think that producing scvs constantly is pretty easy, and that anyone in diamond league and above should be able to do it, and anyone who cant should focus on that ASAP as a crucial mechanical skill. 2) I do not make any statements regarding his bunker; I talk about the scvs he lost while trying to build it. If you bunker rush and lose an scv, then yes, you'll be down an scv. However, if you don't bunker rush, or if you bunker rush and don't lose an scv, then you shouldn't be down an scv. In fact, if you bunker your own front (as is pretty normal) there's no reason you should lose an scv or cut an scv. 3) He made 43 by the 10:00 mark... but the thing is, it's substantially easier to make scvs than it is to EMP, concave, drop, or anything. To have constant scv production takes 4 apm... you should really hammer that down. Also, g etting supply blocked in the first 100 food is an enormous problem. The number of timing attacks that happen in the early game that can crush a guy who gets supply blocked at the right time is enormous; and to discount this issue is a huge mistake. 4) I think that a 2 rax pressure attack that makes a bunker and brings 2 scvs will have a much later expansion than a 1 rax FE, which I consider pretty standard on large maps. I'm sorry if my implication was that anything other than 1 rax FE was bad; rather I meant, a 6:00 expand is considered pretty "late" or "safe," and other standard builds like 1 gate FE will have an economic advantage over this build. My bad. 5) Finally, I don't think you're a pro-- you're clearly not if your initial thought is 35 scvs at 10:00 is OK, and you refine this only to 40 when it's clear that 45 is what is possible with a 6:00 expo. I think you're a player who's trying to improve. An important element of improving is not cutting 10% of your scvs. As long as you reply and put words in my mouth, I will reply and clarify myself. When you stop attributing statements to me that I didn't make, I'll consider not helping people who need help. But I have a basic responsibility to at the very least address claims about what I've said, especially if I believe I'm being incorrectly quoted.Hope this helps.
Im not even gonna read this. I really dont want anymore advice on this topic. Thank you for your time. Have a nice day.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 28 2011 05:03 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 04:54 Blazinghand wrote:On August 28 2011 04:42 Squigly wrote:On August 28 2011 03:32 Blazinghand wrote:On August 28 2011 02:04 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 17:54 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 11:19 Squigly wrote:On August 27 2011 07:16 Blazinghand wrote:On August 27 2011 05:56 Squigly wrote:
How many SCVs is good at 10 min?
I play a 2 rax expo in tvp and drop my expo at 6 min, Generally up and running by 9 as i make it in base.
On a side note i find it annoying that a T expo takes a full minute longer to go up than a P one on maps where you cant build it at your nat due to losing to 3 gate pressure etc.
I am for 35 at 10 min and often get that, rarely more. Constsnt produciton off 1 base i should have 41 by 10 min so i dont mind missing that few to get expo and stim/conc etc.
Tbh i think ive answered my own question lol. 35 is fine as with mules on 2 bases that will never put me behind
If you start your expo at 6:00, by 10:00 you should have 48 scvs, since the 2nd CC will make a few also by then. Try to have constant scv production; 35 and 48 are very different numbers. I appreciate the help, but your math is incorrect. No possible way you could have more than 45, and its not very feasible to have more than 40 tbh. 40 would be awesome SC production, barely missing any time at all apart from the needed couple for stim etc. 35 includes missing the odd 1 or 2 due to micro, and 1 SB. I think getting supply blocked once in the first 100 supply is fine. I tsnot optimal, but an 80 supply SB really isnt that bad. You are right insofar as my math is incorrect. Starting an expo at 6:00, it's not 48 that you can get, but rather, 45 (because you cut a few scvs while making the orbital). On the other hand, you say that it's not very feasible to have more than 40... but on my first try I easily got 45. 40 is shitty scv production because you cut 5 scvs for no reason. 35 scvs, your production target, is not good because you cut 1 scv every minute, or 1 in 4 scvs.45 scvs in 10 minutes, expoing at 6:00 (a pretty late expo): http://www.livestream.com/blazinghand/video?clipId=pla_a2e7bdfa-b695-4eed-9c2c-ee227b5bf916So... whereas I was off by 3 scvs in my estimation due to forgetting about the 2nd orbital time... you're still off by 10 scvs. this is roughly 20% of your economy. Are you really OK with that? Getting supply blocked once is NEVER ok in your first 100 supply. Also, what? cutting scvs to get stim? >.> Id actually forgotten about the cutting scvs for oribtal time, so its more like 43. Say i cut 3 scvs in the first 10 min. Thats obviously reasonable. My goal is now 40. Getting supply blocked puts me down maybe 2 or 3 scvs. Lol at 6 min expo being late. Also getting supply blocked once isnt a game changer. I cut scvs for: Stim, a bunker or 2 to defend against a 3 gate expo push, i dunno mabye am early factory for quick meds. Overall 35 is fine. Watch Pro TvP, do they have more than 40? Very rarely. I dont need any more answers. I appreciate the input. But i have my answer If I could have 40, well go me, those 5 scvs are not really gonna change the outcome of a game. It's not "more like 43" because of the Orbital; the number of scvs you can make is 48 if you don't make an orbital, 45 if you do. You either cut SCVs or you don't; cutting 1 or 2 happens, but cutting all the way down to 40... that's huge. If you make only 40 SCVs, you're still cutting 10% of the time. 45 scvs is optimal, 43 is acceptable for good macro, and 40 is what you want to do if you 'd like to arbitrarily give your opponent at 10% economic advantage. You claimed that more than 40 scvs happens "Very rarely" in pro games... So, at your behest, I ARBITRARILY PICKED THE FIRST TvP ON GOMTV: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/66064zenexbyun vs nshseotassadar Here's what happens to byun's scv count: loses an scv at 5:30 and another at 5:35 during his bunker rush. starts his command center a little later than 6:00 (a 2 rax bunker rush expo instead of a 1 rax FE) At 10:00 he has 41 scvs, DESPITE having lost 2, AND DESPITE the later expansion. This means that he had 43+ scvs if he hadn't lost any. So you say Pro TvP "very rarely" has more than 40? If byun hadn't suicidef 2 scvs during his bunker rush, he'd have had 43. Byun isn't the best Terran player, either; despite being an excellent pro, there are better than him-- he wouldn't cut at all and would be at 45 . I'd think that getting supply blocked and cutting 10% of your scvs isn't normal in high level play, and cutting scvs to make bunkers isn't normal either, for me OR for professionals. There are very, very few game mechanics as important as constant SCV production. I encourage you to work towards a goal of not cutting scvs and not getting supply blocked. Wow aggressive. you clearly didnt read my post. I said thanks, but i dont need more advice. So again, thanks for the post, but i dont need more advice. I will respond to your post even though your being a dick for little reason (that i can think of at least): 1) I said i know i should have 40. 40 is good. 40 is ive done great. Go me. 35 is fine. It really is. Maybe not at pro level but at diamond/master it is. 2) Also its intersting you discount his bunker, and then ignore mine. Good effort. 3) You say he has 41, and is a good pro. Hmm so I should have 41 too? Thats follows. I should also never get SB. I should have my builds perfect. Emp perfectly, concave nicely, while dropping. I thought i said i dont really have an issue being SB once in the first 100 supply. Ill check. Oh yes, i did. Thanks for reading my post before posting. I make mistakes, and getting SB once is so small compared to others i really dont care about it for now. 4) Are you saying every tvp i should 1 rax FE. You say it like everything apart form it is some weird build thats having a really late expo. How many 1 rax expos have you seen at this mlg. Is it most of TvP? I thought not. 5) Ive just realised you think im a pro. Im actually not. Sorry for the confusion. Now I have clarified that, and youve read my posts, i say again. Thank you for the input. Please Please Please stop posting replies. Youve gone out of your way to try and help. Thanks. I honestly appreciate the effort. But i dont want anymore replies. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as a dick or aggressive Sorry... I'm just trying to be helpful. 1) I think that producing scvs constantly is pretty easy, and that anyone in diamond league and above should be able to do it, and anyone who cant should focus on that ASAP as a crucial mechanical skill. 2) I do not make any statements regarding his bunker; I talk about the scvs he lost while trying to build it. If you bunker rush and lose an scv, then yes, you'll be down an scv. However, if you don't bunker rush, or if you bunker rush and don't lose an scv, then you shouldn't be down an scv. In fact, if you bunker your own front (as is pretty normal) there's no reason you should lose an scv or cut an scv. 3) He made 43 by the 10:00 mark... but the thing is, it's substantially easier to make scvs than it is to EMP, concave, drop, or anything. To have constant scv production takes 4 apm... you should really hammer that down. Also, g etting supply blocked in the first 100 food is an enormous problem. The number of timing attacks that happen in the early game that can crush a guy who gets supply blocked at the right time is enormous; and to discount this issue is a huge mistake. 4) I think that a 2 rax pressure attack that makes a bunker and brings 2 scvs will have a much later expansion than a 1 rax FE, which I consider pretty standard on large maps. I'm sorry if my implication was that anything other than 1 rax FE was bad; rather I meant, a 6:00 expand is considered pretty "late" or "safe," and other standard builds like 1 gate FE will have an economic advantage over this build. My bad. 5) Finally, I don't think you're a pro-- you're clearly not if your initial thought is 35 scvs at 10:00 is OK, and you refine this only to 40 when it's clear that 45 is what is possible with a 6:00 expo. I think you're a player who's trying to improve. An important element of improving is not cutting 10% of your scvs. As long as you reply and put words in my mouth, I will reply and clarify myself. When you stop attributing statements to me that I didn't make, I'll consider not helping people who need help. But I have a basic responsibility to at the very least address claims about what I've said, especially if I believe I'm being incorrectly quoted.Hope this helps. Im not even gonna read this. I really dont want anymore advice on this topic. Thank you for your time. Have a nice day.
Ok, you too. Feel free to drop by with any additional questions <3
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Hi all, just looking for some general answers to TvT with a mech composition. After the initial harass, I tend to produce siege tanks with that first factory before I start making hellions with additional hellions for some defense, but I noticed in some of the TvT's from MLG that those pro terrans tend to start amassing blue flame hellions right from the get go and getting siege mode later on. Is this something more based off their scouting information or are they trying to get map control? I feel like it's difficult to defend with that, but then again if you've got map control (or at least fighting for it) your base should be safe from anything crazy. Can someone verify this for me?
Also, assuming I want to get a relatively fast 3rd, how many of each production facility should I go for? On 2 bases I tend to get 3 factories (1 reactor, 2 tech lab) and a reactor'ed starport, all constantly producing stuff. Is this a good number? And once I get onto 3+ bases, how many of each production facility should I have? Or would this be more dependant on what I scout (i.e. if I really want to fight for air control, more starports, if I lost air control completely, more factories for thor production????)
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hi all
I need some help about colossi and vikings count if he have about 3 colossi how much viking do i need ?
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your Country52797 Posts
On August 28 2011 18:48 SickbasterD wrote:
hi all
I need some help about colossi and vikings count if he have about 3 colossi how much viking do i need ?
10 unless he has mass blink stalkers (more) or air (more)
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Hi all, Im looking for a safe opening in TvT that allows me to transition into Mech Mid/Lategame.
One Problem i struggle with in that matchup is that i often don't know what my enemy is going to do , so how and when in tvt matchups do u scout to get a good amount of information?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:19 TehTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 18:48 SickbasterD wrote:
hi all
I need some help about colossi and vikings count if he have about 3 colossi how much viking do i need ? 10 unless he has mass blink stalkers (more) or air (more)
I'd also recommend getting +1 air weapons as you get 6+ vikings, since it increases their damage output, and you'll have an idle armory anyways.
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Hello i am terran player in Platinum. And have problems with my TvP. i just get stomped all the time versus protos. I failed at 1/1/1 few times i just can't find when to attack. Also if i go for fast expo he just go 4-gate and complete crushes me ... Ghost are un option but most of the times he just cheese me DT rush , proxy void ray, 2 gate proxy ... any major tips or link to a thread to my problem?
Thank you; GG and HF
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On August 29 2011 04:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 03:19 TehTemplar wrote:On August 28 2011 18:48 SickbasterD wrote:
hi all
I need some help about colossi and vikings count if he have about 3 colossi how much viking do i need ? 10 unless he has mass blink stalkers (more) or air (more) I'd also recommend getting +1 air weapons as you get 6+ vikings, since it increases their damage output, and you'll have an idle armory anyways.
If he's going colossi in mid-late game i'd say always get air attack. I can't say I've done the numbers but it seems logical if he's getting armour upgrades and vikings attack twice it will help out.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 30 2011 06:03 Zambozo wrote:
Hello i am terran player in Platinum. And have problems with my TvP. i just get stomped all the time versus protos. I failed at 1/1/1 few times i just can't find when to attack. Also if i go for fast expo he just go 4-gate and complete crushes me ... Ghost are un option but most of the times he just cheese me DT rush , proxy void ray, 2 gate proxy ... any major tips or link to a thread to my problem?
Thank you; GG and HF
Perhaps you could go for a middle ground of sorts? If you're having trouble dealing with all-ins, and also want an idea of when you yourself should go all-in, or when it's safe to expand, and you want to get a handle on 1-1-1 openings, let me point you towards Warden's 1/1/1 TvP. Warden details a lot of information on how to scout and react, and how to do a safe 1/1/1 expand, as well as when to all-in and how to fight various Protoss All-ins, along with many helpful replays.
Hope this helps.
EDIT:
On August 30 2011 06:05 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 04:16 Blazinghand wrote:On August 29 2011 03:19 TehTemplar wrote:On August 28 2011 18:48 SickbasterD wrote:
hi all
I need some help about colossi and vikings count if he have about 3 colossi how much viking do i need ? 10 unless he has mass blink stalkers (more) or air (more) I'd also recommend getting +1 air weapons as you get 6+ vikings, since it increases their damage output, and you'll have an idle armory anyways. If he's going colossi in mid-late game i'd say always get air attack. I can't say I've done the numbers but it seems logical if he's getting armour upgrades and vikings attack twice it will help out.
Ah, I said +1 after 6th viking because 6 vikings is the magic number that 2-shots colossi and the +1 will let you get up to 1-shotting levels more quickly. I hadn't thought about the colossus's relatively high armor and the fact that protoss would be going for armor upgrades too... it might be good to just start getting +1 air weapons as soon as you realize he's going colossi, so whatever vikings you have are as strong as possible.
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How do I know which upgrade (Stim, Shields, Concussive) I should research first?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 30 2011 07:15 DW-Unrec wrote:
How do I know which upgrade (Stim, Shields, Concussive) I should research first?
Depends on matchup and composition. There are a couple of specific timings you want in TvP where Concussive will let you kite a small number of gateway units during early pressure, but as a general rule, go for Stimpack first because it takes the longest, and get concussive before shields in TvP, and get Shields in TvZ since you're using marines, not marauders.
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On August 30 2011 07:15 DW-Unrec wrote:
How do I know which upgrade (Stim, Shields, Concussive) I should research first?
In TvZ get combat Shield first since you need to deal with ling pressure and possiable baeling bust
TvT get Stim first unless you going for a maruder heavy build then get concussive shell upgrade first bt only if you go maruder heavy
In TvP i get concussive shell first then stim after since maurders with shells can handle zealots and stalkers easly with shell upgrade
Hope this helps 
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Hello, I was wondering if anyone could give me a link to any top level turtling play as terran in tvz. I dont know if there is anything where people make planitary fortresses to block off attack paths or anything. I want to figure out a good tvz map and build that doesnt go in for the kill untill 4 bases or so.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 30 2011 09:10 terran151 wrote:
Hello, I was wondering if anyone could give me a link to any top level turtling play as terran in tvz. I dont know if there is anything where people make planitary fortresses to block off attack paths or anything. I want to figure out a good tvz map and build that doesnt go in for the kill untill 4 bases or so.
The first build that comes to mind is the classic Griffith's 4 Orbital Command Pressure Rush, which involves making 3 expos (starting in-base) before attacking. Sounds right up your alley, I'd say
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On August 30 2011 09:21 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 09:10 terran151 wrote:
Hello, I was wondering if anyone could give me a link to any top level turtling play as terran in tvz. I dont know if there is anything where people make planitary fortresses to block off attack paths or anything. I want to figure out a good tvz map and build that doesnt go in for the kill untill 4 bases or so. The first build that comes to mind is the classic Griffith's 4 Orbital Command Pressure Rush, which involves making 3 expos (starting in-base) before attacking. Sounds right up your alley, I'd say
Thanks. This will be a great resource. Don't want to reinvent the wheel if i dont have to.
edit: grammer
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EPT
