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On August 23 2011 03:29 Carrera26 wrote: I use Halby's Uber Ups build for TvZ
(mass upgraded marine medivac)
Very very high percentage, but the one tactic I keep losing to is a big 9-10 minute baneling bust. I usually have most of my Raxes on the low ground to eat up the banelings, and they do to a great degree, but if the Zerg commits a LOT to that bust (like 40-50+ blings) it still gets through and I have a very hard time spending my $$$ to re-up before the follow-up slings and blings.
I feel like if I could read this coming I could pre-split a bunch of sacrificial marines up front and protect enough to keep the natural mining. I don't want to do this blind through as they would be far less help any other big pushes protected behind raxes and bunkers.
Thoughts are scouting, floating raxe(s) at about 7 minutes or maybe just an extra layer or 2 of naked raxes to soak up more blings. (I usually float a lot of Minerals before push-out @ 12-15 minutes) I do like the thought that flying raxes might provoke Mutas or Hydras, both of which suck hard vs. mass marine. I'm looking for a no-gas or gas-light option as early on all my gas is going to the upgrades and Medivacs that make this build so powerful.
Anyone else do the Uber Ups and found a good solution?
Thanks
Only way I can imagine to hold 50+ banelings with just marine medivac is a lot of bunkers with buildings infront :X
Why not build like a single banshee to kill a bunch of them safely?
I don't know, going tankless and (presumably) hellionless against zerg seems a little strange. You can still double engineering bay while making medivacs and tanks...
@imr.e I've been something like: 12 rax 13 refinery ->2 in gas 1 marine and OC supply depot reactor when marine is done Command Center when 400 mins constant marines factory at 100 gas 3rd depot. bunker at the ramp. 2nd gas and 3rd scv in first gas tech lab on factory when done-> seige tank. then seige mode and second tank. -> expand when safe add 2 more factories, ghost academies and armories.
you should be ok against a 1 gate as you will have a fast command center and can tech really hard.
Had some trouble scouting with this build though and against 3/4 gate void. Don't know if I could fit a hellion in perhaps.
Sorry if this has already been discussed, I browsed through but didn't see anything. My problem/question is in regards to the new Korean influence on TvT. I am not a big fan of going mass mech builds, but can't stop it either. What I think I would like to do is a relatively standard opener with a fairly quick expo...not necessarily FE, but ~5:30-6:30. Get to a 3/1/1/ or a 2/2/1 and then tech up to BC's.
Questions are: 1) Can you sustain that tech on 2 bases? 2) Does anybody have a comparable build or recommendations that I can review? 3) What are potential weaknesses/vulnerabilities to this strat? 4) Any other thoughts or rec's on the best way to deal with Mass Mech w/o going Mass Mech?
On August 23 2011 07:03 Belial154 wrote: Sorry if this has already been discussed, I browsed through but didn't see anything. My problem/question is in regards to the new Korean influence on TvT. I am not a big fan of going mass mech builds, but can't stop it either. What I think I would like to do is a relatively standard opener with a fairly quick expo...not necessarily FE, but ~5:30-6:30. Get to a 3/1/1/ or a 2/2/1 and then tech up to BC's.
Questions are: 1) Can you sustain that tech on 2 bases? 2) Does anybody have a comparable build or recommendations that I can review? 3) What are potential weaknesses/vulnerabilities to this strat? 4) Any other thoughts or rec's on the best way to deal with Mass Mech w/o going Mass Mech?
Why would you build additional racks when going mech? Teching to BCs on 2 base is really not a good idea as he can probably just walk in and kill you with superior tank number if he is scouting you at all. Vulnerabilities should be quite obvious... few tanks, few units in general, few upgrades, countered by vikings.
Marauder tank is quite solid against pure mech, but harass is pretty bad with it, he just has to use orbitals for expansions so you can't kill them with drops and SCVs will mostly just escape. Requires upgrade diversity too...
On August 22 2011 09:35 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I've been going marine tank every game in TVT but starting with cloak banshee for harassment. Is cloak banshee's still a viable strategy if I want to go Mech TvT? I've never tried pure mech before in TvT, is it the 1/1/1 build? Can I do 1/2/1?
Any information about pure mech in TvT is much appreciated.
Cloak banshee is of course a viable strategy, but a bit risky in Mech TvT. Problem is that most people who play mech got the timing for cloak banshee adapted in their build, as most mech openings evolve around (blue flame) hellions and a starport afterwards. If your opponent goes marine tank, it obviously can still do a bit damage. If the player opens defensive with viking and than raven, you are quite behind because raven play is quite standard mech TvT (pdd).
What works for me is a gas first banshee build on close air maps like metal or shattered temple which can surprise people (see Thorzain vs Slayers Taeja GSTL).
The basis for a mech build is 1/1/1 with added factories after throwing down your cc. I personally open hellions and vikings for scouting and harassing.
On August 23 2011 07:03 Belial154 wrote: Sorry if this has already been discussed, I browsed through but didn't see anything. My problem/question is in regards to the new Korean influence on TvT. I am not a big fan of going mass mech builds, but can't stop it either. What I think I would like to do is a relatively standard opener with a fairly quick expo...not necessarily FE, but ~5:30-6:30. Get to a 3/1/1/ or a 2/2/1 and then tech up to BC's.
Questions are: 1) Can you sustain that tech on 2 bases? 2) Does anybody have a comparable build or recommendations that I can review? 3) What are potential weaknesses/vulnerabilities to this strat? 4) Any other thoughts or rec's on the best way to deal with Mass Mech w/o going Mass Mech?
1) You cannot sustain BC tech on 2 bases. Realistically, as a tank player with 2 factories you're not going to be able to tech to BC safely on fewer than 4 bases without ceding the Viking advantage you desperately need to make BCs effective or maintaining the minimum number of tanks required to hold off a push -- especially with only 1 starport, which means you can't produce vikings and battlecruisers at the same time. 2) If you want a build that CAN go for BCs fairly quickly and deal with mech, consider toying around with iEchoic& which is basically Hellion/Viking until you have air control, then Banshees until he has Thors, then Battlecruisers. This build will have to be very careful to hold air control and not get outHellioned by a meching opponent, however; losing either the ground or the air battle can be devastating to your economy. 3) Rushing BC on 2 base will almost certainly get you killed, and even if you get a BC out, with only 1 starport to produce either vikings or BCs, your opponent's fleet of vikings and land units will likely be able to stop you. 4) If you want to fight against Mech, you're best off going for regular Marine/Tank play, but cutting marines for marauders and dropping him; Mech's mobile unit, the Hellion, struggles against Marauder drops. An air transition is reasonable, but Mech can do this as well as you, so do your best to hold onto air control. Your best option is to just try to take more bases and out-macro him like a normal TvT.
Mech isn't a silver bullet that you need your own silver bullet to deal with; it's just dumping minerals into units that are better against workers and worse against addons, tanks, and air units. Adjust accordingly.
Hey guys, looking to offrace as random on my NA account(love the SEA+NA bundle).
Just looking for the current stable build orders for all matchups for terran. Looking at the terran build orders in the "SC2 Recommended builds" thread they seem a little outdated. I know mech is all the rage in TvT and TvZ atm while vP bio and ghost play seems favorable.
On August 23 2011 15:16 feelo wrote: Hey guys, looking to offrace as random on my NA account(love the SEA+NA bundle).
Just looking for the current stable build orders for all matchups for terran. Looking at the terran build orders in the "SC2 Recommended builds" thread they seem a little outdated. I know mech is all the rage in TvT and TvZ atm while vP bio and ghost play seems favorable.
If you look for macro oriented builds I'd advise to do 2rax in TvZ (bunker pressure, CC, 2 gaz, Factory -> starport + reactor for drops, or 2 factories hellion for a quick 3rd, or 2 factories tanks for a timing push before mutas/infestor)
1rax FE for TvP, the follow up is usually 2raxes asap, bunker (3 at least if one basing toss), then 2gaz and either tech, or 1rax/Ghost academy for a ghost timing push (extremely powerful until mid/high master, decent after) or 2 more raxes and a fast 3rd (dangerous against fast colo but that's not the actual metagame and you've to look for a flank). (there is a thread dealing with it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257228).
In TvT I use polt openings: rax/gaz/OC/2marines. Then if you want to go bio mech : reactor on the rax, switch with the factory, 4 hellions, port for banshee/raven/viking, CC, switch the reactor on the rax, 2 more raxes. For a mech opening: 2nd gaz, tech lab on the factory, port, banshee (switch tech lab), CC, switch again, blue flame + hellion + marines, 2 more factories.
When is a good time to go out and engage Zerg in big maps (Antiga, Taldarim, Shakuras) and how should you do it?
In a map like Typhoon, you can go for third for example and set up from there. But in Tal'darim, how do you choose the engagement spot? What should I do?
In TvZ im having issues dealing with ultras. Typically i go marine tank with ups and try to do drops, but they typically go ling ultra and then throw in some infestors. How do I deal with this? am i doing a poor strat against ultras?
On August 26 2011 02:53 Bleak wrote: When is a good time to go out and engage Zerg in big maps (Antiga, Taldarim, Shakuras) and how should you do it?
In a map like Typhoon, you can go for third for example and set up from there. But in Tal'darim, how do you choose the engagement spot? What should I do?
I think it depends a lot when in the game you're at. But let's say you've got siege, stim, +1, and you're doing a 2 base marine/tank attack on tal'darim against zerg to cover for your expo. You're at the 2:00 spawn and he's at the 10:00 spawn. There's three major "spots" in getting from your base to his base, where his counter-attack routes and your vulnerability vary;
1) just outside your nat, when he first sees you pushing out with his zergling on the xel'naga. From here until you reach the tower, he has a counter-attack route only through your third, and has a flank route coming from the south. You want to siege up, clear the xel'naga, then leap-frog to the xel'naga tower. 2) on the xel'naga, you've cut off the northern counter-attack route, but there is now a longer counter attack route that swings around south and goes into your natural. There's also a long flank route. You probably want to leave a marine on this tower as you push onwards, now trying to always have some sieged tanks in case he tries to engage you early. This is when he's most likely to counter-attack at your natural, which is why you want some dudes hanging out there (reinforcements should come in waves, not trickles) 3) on his creep; now you're in danger towne and need to use scans to kill creep. harass his min line or an extractor or something... but if you can't get the creep to recede in time it's time to go home. He has a million ways to flank and counter-attack you, and it's hard to get reinforcements over there. Hopefully your third is up, though, and you're going to be OK retreating. alternatively, you might be 2-base all-inning, in which case you have enough tanks and marines (and +1 attack for your tanks) that you can edge along the lowground cliff and annoy him to death.
On August 26 2011 02:58 Deadpoetic0077 wrote: In TvZ im having issues dealing with ultras. Typically i go marine tank with ups and try to do drops, but they typically go ling ultra and then throw in some infestors. How do I deal with this? am i doing a poor strat against ultras?
Drops are EXCELLENT against ling/ultra with infestors. Without mutalisks he can't take map control, and with his gas units being so slow, by dropping in different places you can deal some damage and spread him thin.
That being said, I'd recommend making some marauders if you see ultralisks. They're less susceptible to Fungal Growth, and they deal a lot of damage, and they share grades with your marines. Try to focus down his ultralisks with your bio, since tanks won't splash them much.
On August 26 2011 02:58 Deadpoetic0077 wrote: In TvZ im having issues dealing with ultras. Typically i go marine tank with ups and try to do drops, but they typically go ling ultra and then throw in some infestors. How do I deal with this? am i doing a poor strat against ultras?
Drops are EXCELLENT against ling/ultra with infestors. Without mutalisks he can't take map control, and with his gas units being so slow, by dropping in different places you can deal some damage and spread him thin.
That being said, I'd recommend making some marauders if you see ultralisks. They're less susceptible to Fungal Growth, and they deal a lot of damage, and they share grades with your marines. Try to focus down his ultralisks with your bio, since tanks won't splash them much.[/QUOTE]
Thx for the response! Also, when is it good/ bad to clump tanks vs all races? Do you want to put them in a line? parallel with their army? or do you want to spread them out?
The other issue i have is infestor brood lord. I also sometimes play bio mech vs zerg either going marine tank or hellion marine tank with the hellions out early for map control. but recently I've been having some issues with this when my opponent gets infestors and broods. any vikings i have out he neural parasites with the infestors and uses some to fungal my marines. then sends in the lings once hes gotten at least one fungal off to clean up the marines which having seige tanks just obliterates my marines too.
Here is a link to my most recent game with this issue.
I know i got my vikings out late which is a big reason i lost, but even with a few more, the infestors can just tear them apart. with fungals or bu using neura parasite to either land them or to take out my other vikings.
Anyone have any tips for what i could have done or anything i can even do vs this?
I Know that i had a crap ton of minerals saved up and i needed a lot more production facilities in order to keep up with the macro, but im only really talking about what can be done against this. It happens in the last couple minutes of the game.
On August 26 2011 03:41 Deadpoetic0077 wrote: The other issue i have is infestor brood lord. I also sometimes play bio mech vs zerg either going marine tank or hellion marine tank with the hellions out early for map control. but recently I've been having some issues with this when my opponent gets infestors and broods. any vikings i have out he neural parasites with the infestors and uses some to fungal my marines. then sends in the lings once hes gotten at least one fungal off to clean up the marines which having seige tanks just obliterates my marines too.
Here is a link to my most recent game with this issue.
I know i got my vikings out late which is a big reason i lost, but even with a few more, the infestors can just tear them apart. with fungals or bu using neura parasite to either land them or to take out my other vikings.
Anyone have any tips for what i could have done or anything i can even do vs this?
I Know that i had a crap ton of minerals saved up and i needed a lot more production facilities in order to keep up with the macro, but im only really talking about what can be done against this. It happens in the last couple minutes of the game.
Lucky sir, you get a 30-minute in-depth commentary from me. I'm a 500pt master T, so not great, but acceptable enough at the basics to give you some coaching.
Very very high percentage, but the one tactic I keep losing to is a big 9-10 minute baneling bust. I usually have most of my Raxes on the low ground to eat up the banelings, and they do to a great degree, but if the Zerg commits a LOT to that bust (like 40-50+ blings) it still gets through and I have a very hard time spending my $$$ to re-up before the follow-up slings and blings.
I feel like if I could read this coming I could pre-split a bunch of sacrificial marines up front and protect enough to keep the natural mining. I don't want to do this blind through as they would be far less help any other big pushes protected behind raxes and bunkers.
Thoughts are scouting, floating raxe(s) at about 7 minutes or maybe just an extra layer or 2 of naked raxes to soak up more blings. (I usually float a lot of Minerals before push-out @ 12-15 minutes) I do like the thought that flying raxes might provoke Mutas or Hydras, both of which suck hard vs. mass marine. I'm looking for a no-gas or gas-light option as early on all my gas is going to the upgrades and Medivacs that make this build so powerful.
Anyone else do the Uber Ups and found a good solution?
Thanks
Only way I can imagine to hold 50+ banelings with just marine medivac is a lot of bunkers with buildings infront :X
Why not build like a single banshee to kill a bunch of them safely?
I don't know, going tankless and (presumably) hellionless against zerg seems a little strange. You can still double engineering bay while making medivacs and tanks...
I really like this style of TvZ, but are there any notable disadvantages compared to marine/tank?
recently i won a game vs a toss with ghostmech eventually transitioning to upgraded battlecruisers and vikings after that... I really liked it.
What are your thoughts about bcs in a mech army? I forced void rays, then crushed everything with tanks, thors ghost hellions, vikings and bcs, slowpushing with turrets and sensorial towers
On August 26 2011 03:41 Deadpoetic0077 wrote: The other issue i have is infestor brood lord. I also sometimes play bio mech vs zerg either going marine tank or hellion marine tank with the hellions out early for map control. but recently I've been having some issues with this when my opponent gets infestors and broods. any vikings i have out he neural parasites with the infestors and uses some to fungal my marines. then sends in the lings once hes gotten at least one fungal off to clean up the marines which having seige tanks just obliterates my marines too.
Here is a link to my most recent game with this issue.
I know i got my vikings out late which is a big reason i lost, but even with a few more, the infestors can just tear them apart. with fungals or bu using neura parasite to either land them or to take out my other vikings.
Anyone have any tips for what i could have done or anything i can even do vs this?
I Know that i had a crap ton of minerals saved up and i needed a lot more production facilities in order to keep up with the macro, but im only really talking about what can be done against this. It happens in the last couple minutes of the game.
Lucky sir, you get a 30-minute in-depth commentary from me. I'm a 500pt master T, so not great, but acceptable enough at the basics to give you some coaching.
your starports take 2 minutes and 30 seconds to make vikings after you see he's going broodlord, mostly because you get supply blocked.
Get ghosts against infestors
harass and pressure with your initial hellions to force lings and prevent zerg from droning
reactor hellion expo usually involed an addon swap, make reactor on rax then swap it into factory for hellions.
make scvs
don't float 5k/3k
Thanks again for the response! :D ill check out that vod
and yea i know that game wasnt really a good match usually im a lot better at my macro, that was just the most recent game i could find in my replay file for showing that issue. But thank you nonetheless
On August 26 2011 23:23 Gyro_SC2 wrote: In TvP , if you wall and the protoss do a void ray opening. How do you survive ? Are you forced the give your supply?
walling off with a barracks is never good vs toss... ur better off walling with 2 supplies and a bunker
EPT
iEchoic&
(((
