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luzu
Netherlands5 Posts
My standard opening is 1 rax expand into MMM-G, by any direct attack my army gets demolished. Even if i Emped 80% of the HT's and archon army, I still get demolished while studderstepping. Is there a specific buildorder needed to beat this combo? Help would be really appreciated  | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
Check out Demuslim's stream for examples | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 02 2011 18:18 deeshoo wrote: Blazinghand, interesting opener. Mind sharing a replay so I can just get a glimpse into your decision making as to what and how much to pick off? I've been having similar troubles with getting into the mid/late game in TvT, since at my current level (diamond), everybody and their mom just does a 1base timing attack until I die, or opens cloaked banshee. http://drop.sc/31201 Here's a replay in which I won using 1/1/1 against some poorly executed reaper 1-base garbage. Here's an overview of a replay in which I won using this 1/1/1 against a much faster expo. http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294064550 Here is said replay: http://drop.sc/31200 As a general rule you need to scout aggressively with this build and respond appropriately. On September 02 2011 18:40 Maxie wrote: I feel like the 1gas 1-1-1 gets your expansion pretty late, I've been doing more or less what Demuslim does - 15 gas -> cc->factory->second gas->starport and then go from there. Check out Demuslim's stream for examples That's something I would do if I were as skilled as demuslim, and i'll certainly think about working on that play style. As it stands, I'm okay somewhat delaying my expo in order to have those vital tech structures out earlier. | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
That's something I would do if I were as skilled as demuslim, and i'll certainly think about working on that play style. As it stands, I'm okay somewhat delaying my expo in order to have those vital tech structures out earlier. It's a valid point, the 15gas exp can be somewhat risky, as I've noticed - generally a bunker at the ramp is enough, but the timing can be quite tight (i.e just got your viking out when a banshee reaches your base). I've also had some trouble against a 3 tank marine/tank push, but there I think the issue was that I stayed on hellion production for too long when I should've transitioned into siege tanks way earlier (also scouted it too late). In general I really like the opening though... I'll use the 1gas 1-1-1 "expansion" build some more and see how I like it after a decent number of games. I'm a bit curious, though, what units/upgrades do you get before the expansion, generally? Hellions and blue flame, only hellions, siege tank,a viking, etc? Just wondering since the amount of minerals and gas is very limited at that point, and I'd like to be safe but still get the expansion as fast as possible. Edit: just doing some very basic testing vs computer: 15 gas expand: cc @ 3:46 factory @ 4:03 13 gas 1 gas only 1-1-1 before expand: -factory @ 3:25 -cc @ 5:07 | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:38 Maxie wrote: Well, I got my answer - you're not getting any addons before the cc. Yeah, there's no way you have the gas to support any addons, except maybe a non-cloak banshee. That's why it's a 4 hellion drop with red flame-- red flame is all you got, and that medivac (and the tech it took to get medivacs and hellions) is most of your gas. You don't take a 2nd gas, which lets you have a larger mineral income necessary to expand. | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
So i am now having trouble with protoss players doing heavy gateway immortal pushes around the 9 minute mark. It will be right before i have medvacs. I usually do the 1 rax fe or 2 rax. However 2 rax early pressure dies to this sort of thing. And the only way i can hold it off is if i have 3 bunkers with repair. So my question is, when i scan and see 5+ gates with robo should i just delay my medvacs and get more rax to hold. I just never know how many ammounts of units i need to defend and how much i should tech up (upgrades/medvacs). Thanks! | ||
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Clonze
Canada281 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:33 radiantshadow92 wrote: Hi again, So i am now having trouble with protoss players doing heavy gateway immortal pushes around the 9 minute mark. It will be right before i have medvacs. I usually do the 1 rax fe or 2 rax. However 2 rax early pressure dies to this sort of thing. And the only way i can hold it off is if i have 3 bunkers with repair. So my question is, when i scan and see 5+ gates with robo should i just delay my medvacs and get more rax to hold. I just never know how many ammounts of units i need to defend and how much i should tech up (upgrades/medvacs). Thanks! Marines with stim/shield destroy gateway units/immortals. Unless the forcefields are really good. You should try a more aggressive strategy: Gasless expand into a 3-4rax ghost push, Only bio upgrade: stim. be marine heavy and when 1st ghost pops out you push. (this should hit well before 9minutes) Make sure you don't wait too long to build factory while pushing, not sure of the exact timing though. When your ghost push hits he might have a colossus out, in which case you can pull back and expand again while going vikings (maybe even 2nd starport vikings) -A tip to hold protoss aggression is to have your scvs repairing on the "otherside" of the bunker. That way protoss can't forcefield scvs away. If they do then their zealots won't be able to attack it Edit: to get a better idea of what i'm talking about you should watch MLG raleigh TvP games. A lot of them include bio ghost pressure. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
I'm kinda offracing T from Z during this season to see if i can maintain, but i don't understand shit at TvT. ( Bu i can make hellions, so i maintain my rating x) ) When you're opening with a fast blueflame hellion drop, how do you deal with fast siege tank pushes ? Last time i had that scenario, his push get to my base right as my medivac was at his. But even if i kill a lot of scv, i feel like the fact that my tanks are so late make me lose too much stuff. :/ Any tips ? | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
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deeshoo
United States319 Posts
On September 03 2011 12:38 lorkac wrote: Are there better ways to get post wall off scouting in TvT apart from a scan or a reaper? Float a building, fly a viking, do a drop, poke his front to see what comes to shoo you away | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
My question would be: what would be the safest followup? IIRC casters tend to mention when a player goes for extra raxes (or fast medivacs), something along the lines of "they NEED to deal damage now". Upgrade heavy and quite fast third, how does that sound? Thoughts? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 03 2011 12:27 Noocta wrote: I'm in a bit of a loss right now in TvT. I'm kinda offracing T from Z during this season to see if i can maintain, but i don't understand shit at TvT. ( Bu i can make hellions, so i maintain my rating x) ) When you're opening with a fast blueflame hellion drop, how do you deal with fast siege tank pushes ? Last time i had that scenario, his push get to my base right as my medivac was at his. But even if i kill a lot of scv, i feel like the fact that my tanks are so late make me lose too much stuff. :/ Any tips ? The trick is, while you wait for blue flame and your medivac, be active with your first hellion or two, taking xel nagas and seeing if he pushes out. Have your medivac pick up the hellions in your base, then rendez-vous with your other dudes on the (controlled-by-you) map and ferry them into his base. If you see a tank push coming, if you think you can harass and keep him at home, do it. If he's already on his way and won't turn around, swap your factory and your starport and make a banshee. Use your hellions to kill his marines, or at least reduce them to small numbers, so your banshee can force his push to retreat. This will buy you time to transition to whatever you'd like. | ||
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luzu
Netherlands5 Posts
My standard opening is 1 rax expand into MMM-G, by any direct attack my army gets demolished. Even if i Emped 80% of the HT's and archon army, I still get demolished while studderstepping. Is there a specific buildorder needed to beat this combo? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 03 2011 17:34 Maxie wrote: Opinions on the different followups to a 1 rax FE in TvP? I find that while in TvZ my main build order is 99% planned up to 10 minutes, I end up doing very different things from game to game once the expansion is up - sometimes I go for upgrades, sometimes faster medivacs or more raxes, etc. My question would be: what would be the safest followup? IIRC casters tend to mention when a player goes for extra raxes (or fast medivacs), something along the lines of "they NEED to deal damage now". Upgrade heavy and quite fast third, how does that sound? Thoughts? Don't really pay attention to what casters are saying. It's more for entertainment than actual advice. I'd say the safest option is the one you outlined. Getting medivacs just after you start you +1 and stim going. If you go fast medivacs that's also quite nice as you can buy yourself a lot of time to get extra production or even sneak in a very fast third. You don't have to do damage when going fast medivacs or extra raxes before medivacs. On September 03 2011 21:04 luzu wrote: Hello , lately I have been struggling with the TvP matchup, where the protoss goes for Zealot/Archon/Ht in the midgame and in the lategame Zealot/archon/HT + Colosus. My standard opening is 1 rax expand into MMM-G, by any direct attack my army gets demolished. Even if i Emped 80% of the HT's and archon army, I still get demolished while studderstepping. Is there a specific buildorder needed to beat this combo? There is no "build order" that beats "a whole gameplan" like that. I suggest opening a help thread with replays. No simple answer will help you out. | ||
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Clonze
Canada281 Posts
On September 03 2011 21:04 luzu wrote: Hello , lately I have been struggling with the TvP matchup, where the protoss goes for Zealot/Archon/Ht in the midgame and in the lategame Zealot/archon/HT + Colosus. My standard opening is 1 rax expand into MMM-G, by any direct attack my army gets demolished. Even if i Emped 80% of the HT's and archon army, I still get demolished while studderstepping. Is there a specific buildorder needed to beat this combo? HT+Colosus is a really late game army, i'm 100% sure that you made a ton of mistakes before the game reached this point. Sometimes you should look back on what you did and correct mistakes rather than look at the present and say, "How do i fix it so I don't lose a late game fight" But a good composition against zealot/archon/ht+colosus is: Marine(70% marine)/Marauder(30%)/ghost/medivac/viking At this stage of the game you should probably be at least 2-2 with bio, if not 3-3. You should also have air weapons at +1attack The way you should think of it is this. If protoss has colosus you want more marauders, if protoss has a lot of zealot/archon you want more marines. unfortunately if they have a lot of zealot/archon with some splashes of Storming hightemplar, you're going to have to land some good EMPs to keep your marines alive. | ||
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Clonze
Canada281 Posts
On September 03 2011 17:34 Maxie wrote: Opinions on the different followups to a 1 rax FE in TvP? I find that while in TvZ my main build order is 99% planned up to 10 minutes, I end up doing very different things from game to game once the expansion is up - sometimes I go for upgrades, sometimes faster medivacs or more raxes, etc. My question would be: what would be the safest followup? IIRC casters tend to mention when a player goes for extra raxes (or fast medivacs), something along the lines of "they NEED to deal damage now". Upgrade heavy and quite fast third, how does that sound? Thoughts? I feel like theres 2 ways to play 1rax (gasless FE) (obviously you play differently if you see the protoss doing something "all-in" or weird) 1) stim/+1weapons into reactor medivacs. When doing this version you should be out on the map with your main army (your army will crush his at this point if you have a good concave), if you scout a 3rd send 4 marauders to kill it while containing the protoss and building a 3rd base in your main. 2) Ghost/stim pressure. This was used a lot during mlg raleigh and its currently my favorite TvP build. Basically ghost pressure while teching to starport and fall back for a 3rd if the pressure wasnt working out. | ||
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Clonze
Canada281 Posts
On September 03 2011 12:27 Noocta wrote: I'm in a bit of a loss right now in TvT. I'm kinda offracing T from Z during this season to see if i can maintain, but i don't understand shit at TvT. ( Bu i can make hellions, so i maintain my rating x) ) When you're opening with a fast blueflame hellion drop, how do you deal with fast siege tank pushes ? Last time i had that scenario, his push get to my base right as my medivac was at his. But even if i kill a lot of scv, i feel like the fact that my tanks are so late make me lose too much stuff. :/ Any tips ? Make a bunker. then go for cloak banshees after the medivac finshes or get your tanks out faster. | ||
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PoopLord
537 Posts
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