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On February 01 2012 10:33 krooked wrote:I know that some have them on one hotkey, but I think the norm is different hotkeys. To my own problem: Just played a TvZ on metalopolis, a map I hate in TvZ. I do the reactor hellion expo into 111 hellion elevator. He deals with it without any drone losses and the game proceeds. I push his third and kill it, then he lures me into a trap with shitloads of banes and I lose my push. From there it goes to lategame and I mass ghosts, but he just keeps having a huge muta ball. How the hell do I deal with this? I can't be running around unsieging my tanks, I can't leave my tanks, I can't just build thors, and turrets are obviously futile at this point. Any help? I would love feedback on: -The 111 execution ( I havent done it before) -Should I be content with killing his third and let him get back into the game? How do I react to this -When do I stop getting ghosts? I feel its hard to know if he commits to a hivetech, and how heavily he commits to it, before it is too late. - How do I deal with lategame mass muta? - How should Metalopolis be played TvZ in general? Tank/marine that is. edit: derp here's the replay :D http://drop.sc/101413
Didn't really like the execution of the hellion elevator. First of all, it's really helpful to have your 2 other hellions support from the low ground -- it makes it nearly impossible for the lings to kill your hellions. Also, no reason not to have the medivac stay at the base outskirts. You should be able to scoot and shoot the lings, and you ultimately want to be able to save your hellions if possible. You did a decent, but not fantastic, job of keeping up production at home.
The bunker/planetary wall is effective, particularly since you were up in harvesters all game, but also be aware that 4 rax will wall the outside ramp, and you'll be needing to add rax anyway.
You get too aggressive with your marines when you push his third. You want your marines to stay close to your tanks -- it helps to protect your marines from banelings, and your tanks from lings and mutas. As a result, your marine numbers get too low and you lose a lot to the mutas.
You push with 3 tanks at 16:30. That is really too few to be cost effective, unless you're also putting out a drop or attacking in two places. You want to push out with a force of 5 or 6 tanks, and drop with marines to set up a good sieging location for your main army. This is compounded by not expanding behind this push, which you comfortably could have.
Also, more turrets, particularly at your third, would have been okay. You had a great army composition to fight the mutas, so he couldn't really use them to fight. That means you can afford to be more defensive at home to neutralize the threat. If you had 2 more turrets at your third, you would have prevented a much, much greater loss. It's kind of like the chess concept of making your worst piece better when you can't find a good tactic. This positional strengthening also works in SC2 -- if you're in a position where you can only siege up mid-map and can't really advance, expand and sure up your position at home.
The bad marine positioning and lack of tanks REALLY comes back to hurt you at 18:15. Not only do you lose your third, but you lose your whole army because you can't focus the banelings and your marines are out of position. If your marines were in the middle of the tanks behind the thors, you might have survived with enough marines to force back his mutas and/or snipe the third and fourth.
The game's really over at this point, and the zerg not really recognizing his advantage kept you in the game a LOT longer. Work on army positioning and compositions, and I would try to work in drops a little more, too. It's true that mutas make things a bit harder, but if you can keep the zerg responsible for a couple of locations, you can keep strengthening your economy and get your army in good positions to attack.
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On January 31 2012 14:44 ThePianoDentist wrote:
hi, in a situation in a TvZ where i open with delayed gas on 16 to get a fast cc i scout the zerg mining convincingly more than 100 gas so I know a roach or baneling bust is coming. How should i react, do i have enough time to go for factory and get siege mode? should i put a techlab on the barracks for a marauder incase its roaches. i find it usually impossible to wall against banelings to make it unbreakable (meaing i wall but part of the wall is weak supply depots or bunkers) this early on so is it wise to put a bunker protecting cc and some production just incase banelings break through and I cannot close up the hole in time?
I put up a bigger wall with bunkers and barracks usually... and if you go reactor hellion opening and a bit of micro you can hold a baneling bust just fine.
For roaches, just build a bunker or 2 and get marauders out.
BTW if you wall with another round of barracks you don't have to wall completely again imo. I mean if the banes and lings just can get through 1 hole in the wall you will be able to kill them really quickly.
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On February 01 2012 09:10 Gugg wrote:
[...]
PS: Anyone else hate turtling, and people who doesn't answer?
There's almost nothing to be added to what Blazinghead said but just remember that against a turtler, every victory in an engagment for you means a lot more than in the normal case. He may have something in the bank but if you deny him expansions, there is not much he can really do, nor can he really have so many production facilities in a single base. And there's no reason for you, ever, not to be producing units (unless you're perhaps cutting down on unit production to expand and/or tech that you can't do while sustaining production from all your facilities).
Also, if you struggle with TvT, go get Thorzain's build.
In essence: gasless OC opening and fast expand with a depot before the CC, then get a second rax and then two gasses as soon as you're able, with third rax as soon as second finishes. Get the reactor on the first rax as soon as you're able, followed by tech lab on second (start shield) and reactor on third. Get an OC on expo as soon as CC is finished. But never, never cut on SCV and marine production. Around 6:30 get an e-bay and start +1 attack as soon as finished. Then start a factory, start a reactor on it when finished, and starport; switch addons to give reactor to starport (make 2 medivacs) and build tech lab with factory (start siege tech right away), and get stim as soon as shield finishes. You can leave with a single tank and two medivacs (and with stim done), it will be enough. You can take a third while moving out, as your opponent will have plenty on his hands (you should win outright anyway), so hotkey that third command centre of yours and remember to produce SCVs from it while you're attacking. Find the time to build depots (unless you're in danger of a terrible mismicro, getting your production right is more important than managing your combat) or build some in advance because you still want to be making marines, tanks and fliers while you're fighting on the opponent's doorstep. Don't be pressured to avoid getting supply blocked but if you do avoid being supply blocked, it is a great thing and great advantage.
With this build, Thorzain, whose opponent was a powerful progamer too and was actually doing a similar build with almost the exact same type and number of buildings in the end, managed to have about a dozen marines more than his opponent. It is actually possible to defeat tank play with this build, too. Mass marine cheese can defeat it if not scouted (may need bunkers or something). You will probably be attacked in many games before you move out, so be prepared to pull SCVs to help defend. Remember to get the shield as soon as possible because it matters a lot for your defence in such cases (you need it before 7:30, which is the timing of a number of popular pushes). This build should take care of your TvT needs.
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(1) what should be my reactions if I scout a protoss with double gas?
(2) Which timings do i have to know e.g. for my ebay (DT) ?
(3) how do I find out what exactly is going on (unit compositions I see if I poke with a scv) ?
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I use the thorzain build too in tvt and its easy to hold any 1-1-1 or tank/push because early combat shield.
however how do u deal with blue flamme drop hellion or reaper/hellion drop? I have my b2 up so its really hard to defend both places with only marines. The opponent can just drop anywhere in my base and i have to split my marines but they get crushed by hellions.
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On February 02 2012 19:39 Monkay wrote:
(1) what should be my reactions if I scout a protoss with double gas?
(2) Which timings do i have to know e.g. for my ebay (DT) ?
(3) how do I find out what exactly is going on (unit compositions I see if I poke with a scv) ?
Also really need help with this. How do I determine if he's going colossi, ht/archon or just double forge? I have no idea right now and rely on scans, would be cool if I could put that energy into mules.
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On February 02 2012 20:29 zende wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 19:39 Monkay wrote:
(1) what should be my reactions if I scout a protoss with double gas?
(2) Which timings do i have to know e.g. for my ebay (DT) ?
(3) how do I find out what exactly is going on (unit compositions I see if I poke with a scv) ? Also really need help with this. How do I determine if he's going colossi, ht/archon or just double forge? I have no idea right now and rely on scans, would be cool if I could put that energy into mules.
SCV scout and scan if you can't see.
You can check upgrades at like 12(?) minutes and you can probably figure out if it's double forge at that point too.
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On February 02 2012 19:59 Yohsc2 wrote:
I use the thorzain build too in tvt and its easy to hold any 1-1-1 or tank/push because early combat shield.
however how do u deal with blue flamme drop hellion or reaper/hellion drop? I have my b2 up so its really hard to defend both places with only marines. The opponent can just drop anywhere in my base and i have to split my marines but they get crushed by hellions.
This build is indeed very vulnerable to the reaper-hellion allin. If you don't have a clue that it's coming you're probably just dead. If you manage to scout it(scan etc), keep your marines close to the edge of your base and try to catch him when he has the hellions in the medivac, or if he does something sloppy. It's very hard, but if you let him in your main uncontested you're dead.
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On February 02 2012 19:39 Monkay wrote:
(1) what should be my reactions if I scout a protoss with double gas?
(2) Which timings do i have to know e.g. for my ebay (DT) ?
(3) how do I find out what exactly is going on (unit compositions I see if I poke with a scv) ?
(1) Scout again later, because it could literally be anything: sentry-heavy expand, DT expand, VR all-in, one-base Immortal bust, one-base Colossus (didn't see this one for ages, though), Blink all-in, etc. You have to check the amount of energy on his Nexus (VR all-ins typically save up Nexus energy), his pylon count and location (you should see 3 pylons before you leave his base, otherwise it's likely he proxied one somewhere; check possible proxy locations with a SCV if it's the case), and later if he has an expand or not, and his unit composition (how many units and which kill your poking SCV... only Stalkers may mean Blink all-in, few units on the ramp with few/none Sentries and late Nexus may mean DT expand, etc.).
(2) DTs come around the 7' mark, so if you suspect DT play don't use your third MULE and have an EB ready.
(3) Scans, drops, poke with army, SCV scouts, flying Factory scout.
On February 02 2012 20:56 Bwall wrote:
This build is indeed very vulnerable to the reaper-hellion allin.
If you refer to the Reaper Hellion elevator, it's not an all-in at all.
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On January 31 2012 08:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Blazing -- lol sad thing is I didn't know this...
I was SO much APM manually splitting and sieging as they get where I want them. This is a life saver haha. I can turn it down to 180 apm now. Phew.
<---- noob T.
Completely changed my TvZ when I learned it  I'm ready to rematch you btw 
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I always stop building SCVs at around the 50/60/70 mark, anyone got any tips to remind myself to do it?
Such as, everytime I X, build an SCV.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Ok guys i'm gonna be a bit tied up in the next couple of days, but I'll be able to answer short questions. No replay analysis from me until next week though Y_Y
On February 02 2012 23:32 TRnoSki wrote:
I always stop building SCVs at around the 50/60/70 mark, anyone got any tips to remind myself to do it?
Such as, everytime I X, build an SCV.
Unfortunately, building SCV is the highest-frequency macro action you'll take (3.5 times per in-game minute), so there is no metric by which to remember to build scvs other than building scvs. I like to get into a rhythm of every few seconds cycling through my production buildings, including my CC, to make sure they're making stuff.
Also, 70 scvs is considered by many to be entirely acceptable, given terran's access to mules.
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any way to deselect ghosts/vikings from my main army faster than doing that by shift+ click manually every single type of unwanted unit? i keep ghosts, vikings, bio in separate groups but in some high pressure situations i have to hotkey them all together, then when i want to rehotkey them fast on different keys it gets messy.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On February 02 2012 23:55 jupiter6 wrote:
any way to deselect ghosts/vikings from my main army faster than doing that by shift+ click manually every single type of unwanted unit? i keep ghosts, vikings, bio in separate groups but in some high pressure situations i have to hotkey them all together, then when i want to rehotkey them fast on different keys it gets messy.
If you use shift+control+click on a ghost wireframe, you can get rid of ALL the ghosts with a single click rather than having to deselect them all individually.
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A few questions:
How many turrets do I need to be safe from cloacked banshees? Or should I get a viking and a raven instead?
How do I stop a one base attack with like 4 banshees, a few tanks and marines? (the one you use against protoss)
In the higher leagues, will there be more or less 1 base play? (I'm in silver and sometimes play against gold) I've lost almost all my TvTs in wich my opponent didn't take a second base, my early game really needs improvement I guess.
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On February 03 2012 00:28 kranten wrote:
A few questions:
How many turrets do I need to be safe from cloacked banshees? Or should I get a viking and a raven instead?
How do I stop a one base attack with like 4 banshees, a few tanks and marines? (the one you use against protoss)
In the higher leagues, will there be more or less 1 base play? (I'm in silver and sometimes play against gold) I've lost almost all my TvTs in wich my opponent didn't take a second base, my early game really needs improvement I guess.
1. There isn't really a number - you have to learn how to cover the important buildings in your base with as few turrets at possible. If you sim city well, I would say 1-2 at every orbital and then add some around your production buildings so he cant pick those off. Remember that turrets give sight even if it's out of range to attack. This means that even if your turret doesn't hit the banshee, it gives you detection making your marines able to hit the banshee even if it's cloaked.
2. I just won a game where I 1 rax FE'd against this build and I managed to hold the push. It's important that you scout it as early as possible. What I did was that I rushed my factory & starport to get my siege tanks+siege tech and a viking out, all while I delayed his push by poking at his army while it was walking to my base, making him siege and waste time.
So basically, save your mules for scans and get tanks of your own. Preferably get a raven from your starport but if time (and gas) is not allowing it, go for a fast viking to get air dominance making him unable to push.
3. I'd say there's much less 1 base play. People almost always FE against me except some 1 basing terrans and a couple of protosses.
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On February 02 2012 19:39 Monkay wrote:
(1) what should be my reactions if I scout a protoss with double gas?
(2) Which timings do i have to know e.g. for my ebay (DT) ?
(3) how do I find out what exactly is going on (unit compositions I see if I poke with a scv) ?
idk 1 and 3 but for #2 i know that cloaked units cant be at ur base until after 7 min so if u ever scout sooner than that and sence dt's but dont want to save scans then cut some gas and try to have at least 1 turret up by the 7 min mark
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On February 02 2012 23:39 Blazinghand wrote:Ok guys i'm gonna be a bit tied up in the next couple of days, but I'll be able to answer short questions. No replay analysis from me until next week though Y_Y Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 23:32 TRnoSki wrote:
I always stop building SCVs at around the 50/60/70 mark, anyone got any tips to remind myself to do it?
Such as, everytime I X, build an SCV. Unfortunately, building SCV is the highest-frequency macro action you'll take (3.5 times per in-game minute), so there is no metric by which to remember to build scvs other than building scvs. I like to get into a rhythm of every few seconds cycling through my production buildings, including my CC, to make sure they're making stuff. Also, 70 scvs is considered by many to be entirely acceptable, given terran's access to mules.
Ok, Thank you very much, I am going to try and get into the habbit of cycling through my buildings.
Also, another question...turrent placement.
When I play, and there is potentially crippling blow from mutas incoming, I will put turrents at locations where they could come from around my base(s), but when I watch streams, I notice that players will put about 2 or 3 turrents in a line at certain locations, so basically, why should I stack up turrents instead of spreading? The only thing I can think of is if they come at me, a cluter of turrents can do much more damage than just the one, but surely that opens up gaps which mutas can exploit and get to production buildings etc.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On February 03 2012 00:28 kranten wrote:
In the higher leagues, will there be more or less 1 base play? (I'm in silver and sometimes play against gold) I've lost almost all my TvTs in wich my opponent didn't take a second base, my early game really needs improvement I guess.
HO HO HO
in higher leagues, there's no 1 basse play from zerg, but there's a hilarious amount of it from Protoss and other Terrans. 3 Gate VRs, 3 Gate Robo, etc-- and the 2 base protoss all-ins are glorious as well.
On February 03 2012 01:12 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 19:39 Monkay wrote:
(1) what should be my reactions if I scout a protoss with double gas?
(2) Which timings do i have to know e.g. for my ebay (DT) ?
(3) how do I find out what exactly is going on (unit compositions I see if I poke with a scv) ? idk 1 and 3 but for #2 i know that cloaked units cant be at ur base until after 7 min so if u ever scout sooner than that and sence dt's but dont want to save scans then cut some gas and try to have at least 1 turret up by the 7 min mark
Double gas from protoss means "tech all-in" or "slow expand". check for expos. If he doesn't expand, he's all-inning you with either sentries or tech units such as void rays, blink stalker, DTs, Immortals, 1 base Colo, etc.
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EPT
