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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
I've gotten fairly comfortable with most of my openers (phoenix, robo, 3 stalker, blink) holding any 4gates, but I don't really know how to progress this matchup into a later game. In PvZ/T I use pretty macro oriented builds, but PvP is giving me fits. I don't play aggressively enough, and seemingly don't know how to get into the later stages of PvP. Not sure if this requires replays of my awful PvPs, or if this belonged in simple q/a. | ||
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JCKE
United States52 Posts
On February 15 2013 19:03 kuruptt wrote: I did try to do mc 1 gate, however I scouted the 2 barracks so I instantly put down 2 gateways for the incoming push, this is why I guess the rest of my tech was late. What do you mean some of my probe production was off? you only did 2 chronos (should be at least 3 unless you're going for some sort of aggression), paused probe production for like 20 seconds after 17supply.. stopped watching your nexus after that | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On February 16 2013 04:25 Durp wrote: I know this is a little map dependent, but what builds are currently easiest to use to set up a macro PvP. I've gotten fairly comfortable with most of my openers (phoenix, robo, 3 stalker, blink) holding any 4gates, but I don't really know how to progress this matchup into a later game. In PvZ/T I use pretty macro oriented builds, but PvP is giving me fits. I don't play aggressively enough, and seemingly don't know how to get into the later stages of PvP. Not sure if this requires replays of my awful PvPs, or if this belonged in simple q/a. Stargate robo is my personal favourite build for playing a solid macro game, but any of those openers apart from blink are pretty good at setting up a macro PvP. (Blink obs is decent on some maps as well). If you both have an expansion and a both building a robo bay, you can pretty be sure that you are heading towards a macro PvP (there are some 2 base colossi timing attacks that are strong, but most of the time it will mean a longer game.) It is safe to put down a second robo and a forge in this situation and look to take ur 3rd base relatively quickly. From here you just work towards getting the ultimate PvP composition and hopefully get a good engagement that will win you the game. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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probeater
124 Posts
i might also add that i had a 3rd base that just finished and even though he had much better upgrades (3-0-3 vs 1-0-2), with more colossi + immortals i still lost. what should i do against someone going fast 2 forges? | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
On February 16 2013 04:25 Durp wrote: One good option for playing for a macro PvP is a 2 or 3 gate FE build. One good build I've used a lot is a 3 stalker rush into defensive 2 gate expand. The basic build goes 3 stalker rush -> 2 sentries -> 5:40ish nexus -> robo -> 2 more sentries -> 3rd gate. You have to scout well with your 3 stalkers and initial probe to make it work, as it can't hold a 4 gate straight up (obviously) and to hold against fast blink all-ins you have to delay your observer and make an immortal out of your robo immediately. But you should theoretically be able to hold any all-in with decent macro/micro and transition into a macro game with a decent advantage. I know this is a little map dependent, but what builds are currently easiest to use to set up a macro PvP. I've gotten fairly comfortable with most of my openers (phoenix, robo, 3 stalker, blink) holding any 4gates, but I don't really know how to progress this matchup into a later game. In PvZ/T I use pretty macro oriented builds, but PvP is giving me fits. I don't play aggressively enough, and seemingly don't know how to get into the later stages of PvP. Not sure if this requires replays of my awful PvPs, or if this belonged in simple q/a. Another good FE build I've seen is an aggressive 3 gate expand into robo, where you put on some 3 gate pressure to delay your opponent's expansion/scout, then transition into a macro game from there. I think the original build is Eifer's, but if you want to see it executed well I know Remark (GM on NA) does it in almost all of his PvPs, so you could take a look at his stream for reference. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Additionally, between double robo and a defender's advantage he shouldn't have a timing to kill your third (it really doesn't exist in PvP when colossus production starts to kick in), so on paper you should have been able to defend it. Just make sure to pump colossi/gateway units if you take your third and your opponent doesn't; don't play overly greedy by cutting units heavily to get to charge/archons/extra gates. @poster above me: remark's build is fucking sick. Get his replay pack here on TL, it's very worth looking at. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On February 16 2013 08:36 Chandra wrote: One good option for playing for a macro PvP is a 2 or 3 gate FE build. One good build I've used a lot is a 3 stalker rush into defensive 2 gate expand. The basic build goes 3 stalker rush -> 2 sentries -> 5:40ish nexus -> robo -> 2 more sentries -> 3rd gate. You have to scout well with your 3 stalkers and initial probe to make it work, as it can't hold a 4 gate straight up (obviously) and to hold against fast blink all-ins you have to delay your observer and make an immortal out of your robo immediately. But you should theoretically be able to hold any all-in with decent macro/micro and transition into a macro game with a decent advantage. Another good FE build I've seen is an aggressive 3 gate expand into robo, where you put on some 3 gate pressure to delay your opponent's expansion/scout, then transition into a macro game from there. I think the original build is Eifer's, but if you want to see it executed well I know Remark (GM on NA) does it in almost all of his PvPs, so you could take a look at his stream for reference. Eifer's 3 gate expand is a great build, and i'd suggest anyone who wants to learn how to play PvP watch some of Eifer's vods (unfortunately he doesn't play competitive anymore). Remark's stream is also good, but in terms of play and commentary lvl, i don't know a better stream than Eifer's. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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probeater
124 Posts
@Teoita: so you're saying i should never get a 2nd forge? and should i get shield then instead of armor? and just so i know, against a 4gate when going 3 stalker rush, should i only deny pylons in the main/natural? and should i kill the pylon before the stalker/zealot/probe? | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 17 2013 00:12 probeater wrote: yes Minigun is very good, it helps me alot when he's coaching plat/diamonds on-stream too @Teoita: so you're saying i should never get a 2nd forge? and should i get shield then instead of armor? and just so i know, against a 4gate when going 3 stalker rush, should i only deny pylons in the main/natural? and should i kill the pylon before the stalker/zealot/probe? You should engage their army before the probe gets to put down any pylons. If you do that you effectively shut down a 4 gate. PvP you want attack upgrades first. Once those are done, getting shields is generally better than armor actually because armor isn't gonna do much. You'll want a colossus/immortal/archon army which benefits more from shield upgrades because you want archons tanking as much as possible. If nobody can attack the other, PvP sometimes makes it to a carrier transition. Shield upgrades obviously benefit that as well. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On February 17 2013 00:12 probeater wrote: yes Minigun is very good, it helps me alot when he's coaching plat/diamonds on-stream too @Teoita: so you're saying i should never get a 2nd forge? and should i get shield then instead of armor? and just so i know, against a 4gate when going 3 stalker rush, should i only deny pylons in the main/natural? and should i kill the pylon before the stalker/zealot/probe? You priority for killing stuff is probe -> stalker -> zealot -> pylons. In general he shouldn't be able to get pylons down until his first round of warpins (as your stalkers will be outnumbered then). A well executed 3 stalker rush will force the first round of units to be warped in away from your base, rather than at a pylon at your ramp. Don't bother with the second forge imo. You are better off rushing straight for +3 attack. Armor and shield upgrades are too expensive and not really worth it. If someone is silly enough to go double forge (tons of people do for some reason) you can play greedier with your tech/expansions. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
On February 17 2013 00:50 Teoita wrote: You priority for killing stuff is probe -> stalker -> zealot -> pylons. In general he shouldn't be able to get pylons down until his first round of warpins (as your stalkers will be outnumbered then). A well executed 3 stalker rush will force the first round of units to be warped in away from your base, rather than at a pylon at your ramp. Don't bother with the second forge imo. You are better off rushing straight for +3 attack. Armor and shield upgrades are too expensive and not really worth it. If someone is silly enough to go double forge (tons of people do for some reason) you can play greedier with your tech/expansions. Adding a second Forge is definitely a way to get ahead. Colossus' defensive advantage is so that any attack before max is probably a waste (3 base plus, I mean). To be honest, PvP lategame simply isn't "figured out" in comparison to the other matchups. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
a) The timings for expansions, forges, support bays, second robos and mothership tech are much, much more standardized, as there's way to exploit a build that isn't well timed. b) Colossus count isn't all that matters, and indeed it's possible to attack with a low colossus if you are ahead from the early/midgame. c) Again, armor upgrades aren't worth the investment. There isn't a single game of PvP in the last 9 months at least in which a pro invested heavily into armor upgrades or shields for good reason. | ||
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probeater
124 Posts
On February 17 2013 00:50 Teoita wrote: You priority for killing stuff is probe -> stalker -> zealot -> pylons. In general he shouldn't be able to get pylons down until his first round of warpins (as your stalkers will be outnumbered then). A well executed 3 stalker rush will force the first round of units to be warped in away from your base, rather than at a pylon at your ramp. Don't bother with the second forge imo. You are better off rushing straight for +3 attack. Armor and shield upgrades are too expensive and not really worth it. If someone is silly enough to go double forge (tons of people do for some reason) you can play greedier with your tech/expansions. what happens if he manages to start a pylon before im able to kill the probe? am i screwed? | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 17 2013 01:50 probeater wrote: what happens if he manages to start a pylon before im able to kill the probe? am i screwed? No you're not. You still have time to kill the units before the pylon finishes so he doesn't have high ground vision and by now your sentry should be out and ready to forcefield if he warps on the low ground and tries to get up. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
If it starts at the bottom of your ramp, you should just ff his units off while your ranged units kill it. In this case, you also fucked up, but less horribly. It takes 4 stalker shots to kill a probe, so with 3 stalkers on the map you should be able to kill at least one probe. It's trickier vs people that bring 2 probes with their 4gate, but you should prevent a pylon from going up at the top of your ramp regardless. | ||
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probeater
124 Posts
On February 14 2013 06:42 DarkLordOlli wrote: Sentries. You won't have the overwhelming amount of gateway units to take a direct engagement so you'll need to rely on forcefields. Depending on what you scout you might wanna make 1-2 immortals for safety but if you feel like you can skip them without taking a risk, do it. This will allow you to tech up faster. Teoita said exactly the opposite: On February 14 2013 08:33 Teoita wrote: With Mc's 1gate FE your standing army should always be stronger than what a terran has at any point in time basically, that's the whole point of the build.. Also you shouldn't have 2 stalkers and 2 sentries only. Assuming you warped in the 2 sentries, you should have one more gateway ready for an extra zealot. That force can easily clean up that bio army. The replay vs mvp in monk's thread is very, very good to study early game defense. who's right here? | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 17 2013 03:31 probeater wrote: i just looked back at the post when i asked about terran 1 basing me...DarkLord and Teoita both responded, DarkLord saying: Teoita said exactly the opposite: who's right here? What I was talking about is the specific scenario of a 2rax which is really the only frequently used build that can immediately pressure you if you do a 1gate expand, aside from crazy marine/SCV all ins. You won't be able to take that engagement head on without using the advantage of terrain, specifically ramps to forcefield. So we don't actually contradict each other. Once your economy kicks in vs a terran that expands later than you, your army should always be stronger as Teoita said. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On February 17 2013 03:38 DarkLordOlli wrote: What I was talking about is the specific scenario of a 2rax which is really the only frequently used build that can immediately pressure you if you do a 1gate expand, aside from crazy marine/SCV all ins. You won't be able to take that engagement head on without using the advantage of terrain, specifically ramps to forcefield. So we don't actually contradict each other. Once your economy kicks in vs a terran that expands later than you, your army should always be stronger as Teoita said. I disagree. Once you have your first round of units your army will be stronger than the Terran's, especially if you have an early sentry for Guardian Shield (with a safe build like kcdc's). The only tricky/scary moment is when he's pushing right before your warpgates are ready, if and only if he has brought 3 or more scv's with the push. In that case, simply stay at your ramp, and if he tries to ignore the nexus and push up ff and kill his stuff. Once warpgate is ready, warp in the first round of units (having a pylon close to your ramp allows you to do so on the low ground which is really nice) and clean up his pressure. Mc's build invests so much into units off the first gateway, you can always beat a terran's army in your natural, except maaaybe if he's doing some wierd pressure right before the 4th unit (3rd stalker) is out (i'm not entirely sure on that though). The tradeoff is less sentries, less probes and a slower warpgate. | ||
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