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On August 31 2011 13:20 whistle wrote:Hey I've been wondering this for a long time too so I decided to rip a pro game. It wasn't an all-in but got 3 gate stargate before the nexus so you could probably cut a probe or two, redirect a chrono boost from the nexus onto the core, and warp in units instead of a nexus for an all-in. Don't really know about the changes though... wait for some better players to respond! + Show Spoiler +Genius vs TOP GSL August Code S Ro8 Set1 @ XNFortress since Genius went for a void ray build May not be entirely accurate since it's based off a vod but here's what I've got: 9 Pylon 13 Gateway 14 Assimilator 16 Pylon 17 Cybernetics Core --> Stalker and Warpgate, both chrono boosted 18 Assimilator 25 (@150 Gas) Stargate 26 (@100 Gas) Sentry 28 (@300 Minerals) 2x Gateway (26 total probes, supplies assume you don't lose one) 30 (250/150) Void Ray, chrono boosted - he starts his at 5:15 33 Nexus (6:10, before 1st warp which consisted of sentries) I believe his chrono boost usage is as follows: 1 - nexus 2 - nexus 3 - nexus 4/5 - gateway [stalker]/core simultaneously 6 - core 7 - void ray 8 - nothing Reverse engineered based off warpgate research timing as well as the fact that he used a chrono boost at 5:15 on the void ray Hope this helps [edit for formatting/grammar]
Lol I was actually studying this game and writing down the build order as you replied.
Thanks for the help 
@Lakona
thanks for the link, will definable have to study this game as well.
Looks like I should not have too much trouble to adding another build into my boX line up
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Your scouting and BO was pretty good up until you saw the 1-1-1 coming.
At that point you should'nt have started a robo bay - start chrono'ing out non stop immortals and drop a 4th gateway. Also, far too many stalkers - you need to concentrate on zealots to fend off the push with just enough stalkers to deal with the banshees. Micro your stalkers to focus the banshees, immortals to deal with the tanks and the rest to deal with... the rest ahem .
On the scouting you saw the 1-1-1 and his army massing at his rally point, then flew your observer away... you had no idea on when he was pushing out. If you had left your observer there you would have seen him push out at 7:30, a full minute after you identified the 1-1-1... so the scout time and the push time would have given you close to 2 full minutes to arrange a nice welcoming party for him. 2 minutes of chrono'd immortals and zealots with a handful of probes would have completely owned his push.
Your chronoboost use was pretty poor during the engagement. From the moment the push arrived at about 8 minutes until you fended it off at 16 minutes you used chrono 3 times and you were consistently floating 300-600 minerals - at one point it spiked up to 900.
Finally dont be afraid to pull probes... remember you have an expo up and he doesnt. If you lose a few probes you can get them back pretty quickly and still be ahead.
You may want to read QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) for some more specifics.
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When is it advantageous to block a zerg's expo with a pylon? Not something I've ever actually done... is it only if they're trying to go hatch first? Should you do it every time they try to go hatch first?
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On August 31 2011 21:16 Lakona wrote:
When is it advantageous to block a zerg's expo with a pylon? Not something I've ever actually done... is it only if they're trying to go hatch first? Should you do it every time they try to go hatch first?
If they try to go hatch first, block it. You will be ahead quite a bit but make sure they don't expand in the location of their third either. Unless you want them to of course (for 4gating etc). I usually block hatcheries when they go 14pool or later as well if they only make 2 zerglings, as this delays them a lot. If the zerg makes 4 lings the pylon will go down too fast. You can also cancel the pylon before it finishes to not invest as much minerals.
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On August 31 2011 21:16 Lakona wrote:
When is it advantageous to block a zerg's expo with a pylon? Not something I've ever actually done... is it only if they're trying to go hatch first? Should you do it every time they try to go hatch first?
Almost always if thats your style. I've beem practising this style and I've had about 80% success with it so far... but its only for short games where you dont want to face the zerg in a macro race.
Have a look at Hister's PvZ pylon pressure build for specifics.
Edit: Sorry I misread the question - you were talking about blocking the expo, not the ramp... 
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Stupid question: what is the best response to a hatchery building inside your base (when you go FFE)? In my game, as soon as I found it I put a pylon next to it and then a cannon. He waited for my cannon to finish and then canceled the hatchery. (So he got his money back while I'm stuck with a useless cannon.)
As I was writing this, I realized that starting a cannon right before the hatch is about to finish is probably optimal.
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On August 31 2011 23:37 eugalp wrote:
Stupid question: what is the best response to a hatchery building inside your base (when you go FFE)? In my game, as soon as I found it I put a pylon next to it and then a cannon. He waited for my cannon to finish and then canceled the hatchery. (So he got his money back while I'm stuck with a useless cannon.)
As I was writing this, I realized that starting a cannon right before the hatch is about to finish is probably optimal.
Start the cannon so that it will be 3/4 when the hatch finishes. Do not forget to wall off the front though as a lot of zergs will ling all in you from that point.
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On August 31 2011 23:37 eugalp wrote:
Stupid question: what is the best response to a hatchery building inside your base (when you go FFE)? In my game, as soon as I found it I put a pylon next to it and then a cannon. He waited for my cannon to finish and then canceled the hatchery. (So he got his money back while I'm stuck with a useless cannon.)
As I was writing this, I realized that starting a cannon right before the hatch is about to finish is probably optimal.
I think you might need 2 cannons to be safe vs inbase hatch if he makes roaches. And you need to kill larva if he saves so he cant spawn 3 roaches at once and just run to your minneralline with them
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On August 31 2011 23:53 GrassEater wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 23:37 eugalp wrote:
Stupid question: what is the best response to a hatchery building inside your base (when you go FFE)? In my game, as soon as I found it I put a pylon next to it and then a cannon. He waited for my cannon to finish and then canceled the hatchery. (So he got his money back while I'm stuck with a useless cannon.)
As I was writing this, I realized that starting a cannon right before the hatch is about to finish is probably optimal. I think you might need 2 cannons to be safe vs inbase hatch if he makes roaches. And you need to kill larva if he saves so he cant spawn 3 roaches at once and just run to your minneralline with them
yeah depends on when you catch it, if you catch it when it first starts 1 cannon will be fine, the issue is that they will probably cancel and try to start again out of range. meaning that when scouted early a toss needs to send a probe by it so it can chase the drone and block future hatches, or more pylon cannons need to built again.
if its about done or finished i suggest 3 cannons as it really needs to go down as soon as possible, if roaches start gathering in numbers and a queen in your main, its over.
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On September 01 2011 00:05 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 23:53 GrassEater wrote:On August 31 2011 23:37 eugalp wrote:
Stupid question: what is the best response to a hatchery building inside your base (when you go FFE)? In my game, as soon as I found it I put a pylon next to it and then a cannon. He waited for my cannon to finish and then canceled the hatchery. (So he got his money back while I'm stuck with a useless cannon.)
As I was writing this, I realized that starting a cannon right before the hatch is about to finish is probably optimal. I think you might need 2 cannons to be safe vs inbase hatch if he makes roaches. And you need to kill larva if he saves so he cant spawn 3 roaches at once and just run to your minneralline with them yeah depends on when you catch it, if you catch it when it first starts 1 cannon will be fine, the issue is that they will probably cancel and try to start again out of range. meaning that when scouted early a toss needs to send a probe by it so it can chase the drone and block future hatches, or more pylon cannons need to built again. if its about done or finished i suggest 3 cannons as it really needs to go down as soon as possible, if roaches start gathering in numbers and a queen in your main, its over.
Start 2 cannons right next to the hatchery when it's about 3/4 done, cancel both if he cancels. If he makes units get a surround on the eggs with probes before they hatch.
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On August 31 2011 17:45 Lumpybd wrote:Your scouting and BO was pretty good up until you saw the 1-1-1 coming. At that point you should'nt have started a robo bay - start chrono'ing out non stop immortals and drop a 4th gateway. Also, far too many stalkers - you need to concentrate on zealots to fend off the push with just enough stalkers to deal with the banshees. Micro your stalkers to focus the banshees, immortals to deal with the tanks and the rest to deal with... the rest ahem . On the scouting you saw the 1-1-1 and his army massing at his rally point, then flew your observer away... you had no idea on when he was pushing out. If you had left your observer there you would have seen him push out at 7:30, a full minute after you identified the 1-1-1... so the scout time and the push time would have given you close to 2 full minutes to arrange a nice welcoming party for him. 2 minutes of chrono'd immortals and zealots with a handful of probes would have completely owned his push. Your chronoboost use was pretty poor during the engagement. From the moment the push arrived at about 8 minutes until you fended it off at 16 minutes you used chrono 3 times and you were consistently floating 300-600 minerals - at one point it spiked up to 900. Finally dont be afraid to pull probes... remember you have an expo up and he doesnt. If you lose a few probes you can get them back pretty quickly and still be ahead. You may want to read QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) for some more specifics.
So Colossus is bad against 1-1-1? Oh and the reason I didn't make zealots was because one time another Terran did a 1-1-1 to me and I made Zealots and he bm'd me saying "that's what you get for making Zealots thanks for the free kills" lol.
So next time I should just attack head on with Immortals and Zealots, and possibly pull probes? I'm worried that I'll get demolished if he has good siege tank spread. Btw thanks for the reply!
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On September 01 2011 02:32 1ll0gic wrote:
So Colossus is bad against 1-1-1? Oh and the reason I didn't make zealots was because one time another Terran did a 1-1-1 to me and I made Zealots and he bm'd me saying "that's what you get for making Zealots thanks for the free kills" lol.
So next time I should just attack head on with Immortals and Zealots, and possibly pull probes? I'm worried that I'll get demolished if he has good siege tank spread. Btw thanks for the reply!
Immortal/zealot composition is one often effective way to handle it. I find that QTIP guide really annoying though because he seems to have this attitude of "my preferred way is the only correct way and everything else is wrong." There are definitely multiple options, the key factor is whether you can actually execute them well. Here's a recent example of stopping a 1/1/1 with a primarily stalker/collosus composition:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Midas_vs_(P)NEXTREME__sc2rep_com_20110831/13016
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One of the games of Puma vs MC recently, I think MLG? Was pretty awesome even if MC lost. He used phoenixes blink stalkers and dark templars to be as effective as possible in a basetrade scenario.
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On September 01 2011 04:47 Lakona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 02:32 1ll0gic wrote:
So Colossus is bad against 1-1-1? Oh and the reason I didn't make zealots was because one time another Terran did a 1-1-1 to me and I made Zealots and he bm'd me saying "that's what you get for making Zealots thanks for the free kills" lol.
So next time I should just attack head on with Immortals and Zealots, and possibly pull probes? I'm worried that I'll get demolished if he has good siege tank spread. Btw thanks for the reply! Immortal/zealot composition is one often effective way to handle it. I find that QTIP guide really annoying though because he seems to have this attitude of "my preferred way is the only correct way and everything else is wrong." There are definitely multiple options, the key factor is whether you can actually execute them well. Here's a recent example of stopping a 1/1/1 with a primarily stalker/collosus composition: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Midas_vs_(P)NEXTREME__sc2rep_com_20110831/13016
Did you miss the section in QTIP's guide called "Alternative Methods?"
There are other ways of handling the 1-1-1 but the method outlined in his guide is hands down more versatile and safer.
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On September 01 2011 04:47 Lakona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 02:32 1ll0gic wrote:
So Colossus is bad against 1-1-1? Oh and the reason I didn't make zealots was because one time another Terran did a 1-1-1 to me and I made Zealots and he bm'd me saying "that's what you get for making Zealots thanks for the free kills" lol.
So next time I should just attack head on with Immortals and Zealots, and possibly pull probes? I'm worried that I'll get demolished if he has good siege tank spread. Btw thanks for the reply! Immortal/zealot composition is one often effective way to handle it. I find that QTIP guide really annoying though because he seems to have this attitude of "my preferred way is the only correct way and everything else is wrong." There are definitely multiple options, the key factor is whether you can actually execute them well. Here's a recent example of stopping a 1/1/1 with a primarily stalker/collosus composition: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Midas_vs_(P)NEXTREME__sc2rep_com_20110831/13016
That is most definitely what I was not trying to accomplish with my guide. There are other ways to handle the push, and I have outlined the most notable ones in my "Alternative Methods" section. More importantly - though it was a guide, I encouraged discussion of other methods as well. Sorry if you found my tone annoying (honestly surprised by this).
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Canada13392 Posts
On September 01 2011 06:08 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 04:47 Lakona wrote:On September 01 2011 02:32 1ll0gic wrote:
So Colossus is bad against 1-1-1? Oh and the reason I didn't make zealots was because one time another Terran did a 1-1-1 to me and I made Zealots and he bm'd me saying "that's what you get for making Zealots thanks for the free kills" lol.
So next time I should just attack head on with Immortals and Zealots, and possibly pull probes? I'm worried that I'll get demolished if he has good siege tank spread. Btw thanks for the reply! Immortal/zealot composition is one often effective way to handle it. I find that QTIP guide really annoying though because he seems to have this attitude of "my preferred way is the only correct way and everything else is wrong." There are definitely multiple options, the key factor is whether you can actually execute them well. Here's a recent example of stopping a 1/1/1 with a primarily stalker/collosus composition: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Midas_vs_(P)NEXTREME__sc2rep_com_20110831/13016 That is most definitely what I was not trying to accomplish with my guide. There are other ways to handle the push, and I have outlined the most notable ones in my "Alternative Methods" section. More importantly - though it was a guide, I encouraged discussion of other methods as well. Sorry if you found my tone annoying (honestly surprised by this).
Yeah QTIPS guide is very good actually. Though I personally prefer not to expand since I feel that because of MULEs the terran gets to be at a point of disadvantage at the point at which he mines out before you. Ive seen optikzero do some cool stuff like get 2 immortals and 4 gates and then a stargate. He pushes out with 2 immortals at which point either the Terran is moving out at an earlier timing about the map or is in his base waiting for a delayed push. You can often kill the bunker and get a few free units if the Terran has siege mode a little late at this point. If they have siege mode you can basicaly contain them just outside siege range while getting 2 or 3 phoenix in order to harass and poke at any poorly placed banshees.
If the terran moves down the ramp and unsieges all his tanks you can often push in and do significant damage while expanding at this point. Otherwise, you can delay the push by poking and prodding whenever the Terran does decide to unsiege which causes them to have to siege again while you walk out of range of the tanks significantly slowing the push. Expand before you mine out and tech to collossi if you are able to see that they are gearing up to expand. remember they will mine out faster than you. Also get lots of zealots. If you can keep your initial pheonixes alive you can kill the banshees after you have cleaned up the ground army extremely effectively.
Though this is not super easy to do it is an option i have found more success with myself especially against the super fast 1 1 1s or plays which arent a 1 1 1 but are instead a well hidden 2 rax in comparison to the FE builds that others are proponents of. Though to be fair I am only diamond so it probably a result of the skill level that I have had some success holding the 1 1 1 with the optik zero method (only saw it 2 times on his stream one day).
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On September 01 2011 06:35 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 06:08 QTIP. wrote:On September 01 2011 04:47 Lakona wrote:On September 01 2011 02:32 1ll0gic wrote:
So Colossus is bad against 1-1-1? Oh and the reason I didn't make zealots was because one time another Terran did a 1-1-1 to me and I made Zealots and he bm'd me saying "that's what you get for making Zealots thanks for the free kills" lol.
So next time I should just attack head on with Immortals and Zealots, and possibly pull probes? I'm worried that I'll get demolished if he has good siege tank spread. Btw thanks for the reply! Immortal/zealot composition is one often effective way to handle it. I find that QTIP guide really annoying though because he seems to have this attitude of "my preferred way is the only correct way and everything else is wrong." There are definitely multiple options, the key factor is whether you can actually execute them well. Here's a recent example of stopping a 1/1/1 with a primarily stalker/collosus composition: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Midas_vs_(P)NEXTREME__sc2rep_com_20110831/13016 That is most definitely what I was not trying to accomplish with my guide. There are other ways to handle the push, and I have outlined the most notable ones in my "Alternative Methods" section. More importantly - though it was a guide, I encouraged discussion of other methods as well. Sorry if you found my tone annoying (honestly surprised by this). If they have siege mode you can basicaly contain them just outside siege range while getting 2 or 3 phoenix in order to harass and poke at any poorly placed banshees.
What if they just leap frog? That's how they inch closer to my base when they contain me, I'd imagine they could do the same if I tried to contain them.
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Canada13392 Posts
On September 01 2011 06:55 1ll0gic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 06:35 ZeromuS wrote:On September 01 2011 06:08 QTIP. wrote:On September 01 2011 04:47 Lakona wrote:On September 01 2011 02:32 1ll0gic wrote:
So Colossus is bad against 1-1-1? Oh and the reason I didn't make zealots was because one time another Terran did a 1-1-1 to me and I made Zealots and he bm'd me saying "that's what you get for making Zealots thanks for the free kills" lol.
So next time I should just attack head on with Immortals and Zealots, and possibly pull probes? I'm worried that I'll get demolished if he has good siege tank spread. Btw thanks for the reply! Immortal/zealot composition is one often effective way to handle it. I find that QTIP guide really annoying though because he seems to have this attitude of "my preferred way is the only correct way and everything else is wrong." There are definitely multiple options, the key factor is whether you can actually execute them well. Here's a recent example of stopping a 1/1/1 with a primarily stalker/collosus composition: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Midas_vs_(P)NEXTREME__sc2rep_com_20110831/13016 That is most definitely what I was not trying to accomplish with my guide. There are other ways to handle the push, and I have outlined the most notable ones in my "Alternative Methods" section. More importantly - though it was a guide, I encouraged discussion of other methods as well. Sorry if you found my tone annoying (honestly surprised by this). If they have siege mode you can basicaly contain them just outside siege range while getting 2 or 3 phoenix in order to harass and poke at any poorly placed banshees. What if they just leap frog? That's how they inch closer to my base when they contain me, I'd imagine they could do the same if I tried to contain them.
Still much slower than the alternative of them walking straight up to your base and it punishes them if they have a low tank number. If they have one tank sieged while moving 2 up then you can zip by lift the one tank with pheonix and attack into an unsieged position. If they move the tank without marines you can lift that tank and do some damage to it with your air units. Its all about slowing it down and taking advantage of anything you can. For example if the marines and a tank move up then try and snipe a raven or a banshee if the marines arent protecting it. Just having a few pheonix really adds another level to the decision making terran has to do and at lower levels they will definitely make more mistakes and since you are planning for that you can make better decisions.
Your decision making process with the pheonix is fly by and hit what you can dont get caught in siege mode range and lose all shields. Taking shield damage is fine it comes back. Bio losing health or mech losing health delays the push more and more (heal and repair). Losing a banshee or a raven is scary, losing a tank is scary. right clicking to make sure you dont get stuck in marine range is far less scary. Its psychologically easier to control the pheonix than it is to deal with them. You are playing a person and their decisions and psyche are important to how well they do after all.
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EPT
