EPTZerg just seems to be able to punish me so easily for taking a third, and if I wait a bit their economy will be better and even if my army is more efficient, they can bounce right back with a million roaches. I'm usually going templar in the mid-game and I wonder if you should never go that against roach? idk, sometimes I think I should stick with 2 base all ins =/
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 40
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
Zerg just seems to be able to punish me so easily for taking a third, and if I wait a bit their economy will be better and even if my army is more efficient, they can bounce right back with a million roaches. I'm usually going templar in the mid-game and I wonder if you should never go that against roach? idk, sometimes I think I should stick with 2 base all ins =/ | ||
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To3-Knee
Canada100 Posts
On August 30 2011 13:14 happyness wrote: Quick question: When should you take your third against zerg? When they take there third? Or a little after? Zerg just seems to be able to punish me so easily for taking a third, and if I wait a bit their economy will be better and even if my army is more efficient, they can bounce right back with a million roaches. I'm usually going templar in the mid-game and I wonder if you should never go that against roach? idk, sometimes I think I should stick with 2 base all ins =/ I don't usually take a third before zerg. 2 base roach/ling is pretty strong and you will get punished if on 3 bases and you didn't gain some significant advantage early on. I tend to spend my efforts delaying zerg's third as long as I can and take a third around the same time. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 30 2011 10:09 flipstorm wrote: Whats the best response to a roach/ling all in when you FFE? I try to keep my scouting probe alive long enough to delay an expo and get as much info as I can when I FFE, cuz then I am usually blind for the next few minutes until I get an obs or hallucination. I usually don't expect zerg to do this so when it does happen I feel very unprepared as I usually only place a couple cannons at the choke of my natural. In a recent game I lost, I scouted the usual 1 gas, zerg droning hard and then I went to delay what I thought was his expo. However, he just dropped a roach warren after this and spammed roaches and lings and pushed my base with a significantly bigger army when I still only had a few units up. I feel like after I lose my initial probe I should immediately send another probe to check for an expo. If I don't see one at that point should I expect an all in? And how many cannons should I build to defend the push? 2 is nowhere near enough, they did almost nothing. You should never be blind against zerg. If your scouting probe dies, send another one. If there are speedlings on the map, send zealots to scout. If there are a lot of speedlings on the map, well then you should be make more cannons asap. 2 base doesn't necessarily mean an all-in. 2 base lair is decently popular and you don't want to mass cannon against that. Otherwise if you do scout the all-in just basically stop everything and make as many cannons as you can before the attack hits. I often make 6+ cannons, it's always better to be safe than lose. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 30 2011 13:14 happyness wrote: Quick question: When should you take your third against zerg? When they take there third? Or a little after? Zerg just seems to be able to punish me so easily for taking a third, and if I wait a bit their economy will be better and even if my army is more efficient, they can bounce right back with a million roaches. I'm usually going templar in the mid-game and I wonder if you should never go that against roach? idk, sometimes I think I should stick with 2 base all ins =/ You can't take your third as fast as the zerg, and generally you can't even take it a little afterwards. It's not an issue though, since it's ok for the zerg to have better econ than you. If you get your 3rd at the same time as the zerg and keep it, then you're way ahead. While you can tech to templar archive, if the zerg stays on roaches you really shouldn't be making any HT. Just mass stalker/sentry/immortal. Only if infestors and/or hydras come into play then should you start going HT. | ||
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Lumpybd
United Kingdom118 Posts
On August 25 2011 11:27 Zitator wrote: hey, i don't know if this has been asked already but i'm too stupid to find out how to search for something inside a thread. I just lost a game versus a terran player who used early siege tanks and a few marines + ~10 pulled scvs building bunkers to slowly contain me. Then he also threw some banshees in. I was going 3 gate exp into colossi with range to deal with the contain but i failed miserably. Could someone tell me how to deal with this? I felt like i was making a lot of mistakes, like losing stuff unnecessarily to the siege tank fire, but still didn't know what to do. Maybe I did a lot of mistakes already in the early game and in the way I was reacting to my scouting information? Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/29226 Thanks in advance  It's a fairly typical 1-1-1 albeit a bit early and with too many bunkers. Have a look at QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT). | ||
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Lumpybd
United Kingdom118 Posts
http://drop.sc/30434 | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
What is the timing for 1/1/1 MTRB push? and 2 rax? Thanks in advance! | ||
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Lumpybd
United Kingdom118 Posts
On August 30 2011 19:02 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I don't wanna sift through 40 pages to find my answer, so I apologize in advance if this question has been asked/answered. What is the timing for 1/1/1 MTRB push? and 2 rax? Thanks in advance! The 1-1-1 comes anywhere between 8 - 10 minutes depending on the specific flavour in question. I'd like to know about the 2rax timings myself. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
Gotta really be vigorous with scouting vs it. | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Kiwikaki had an interesting build prepared for it in his game against Puma with 2 gate/robo/stargate and an expo cancel, but I'm not sure it is viable for mere mortals without pro-level mechanics. Kiwikaki himself slipped on the execution and lost, and I think his micro is among the best. Hero beat the 1-1-1 vs Sjow, but he was proxy Stargating and went on the offensive early. Edit: InControl used an offensive not-proxied Stargate against Trimaster's 1-1-1, but Trimaster was able to successfully defend and win. And Trimaster's 1-1-1 push against Huk was done without Siege Mode and was significantly delayed, leading to Huk's convincing win. Those were the only games I caught where it was used, I was flipping between streams. If this has been answered in another thread, I apologize in advance, search function has failed me. | ||
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Xenomorph
United States137 Posts
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SoRa1987
Canada2 Posts
On August 30 2011 18:36 Lumpybd wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on dealing with mass roaches in PvZ? Even if I see it coming I never seem to be able to produce an army big enough to respond to heavy roach play. http://drop.sc/30434 in that game after you denied his expo with cannons and massed up that decent 1/1 army off 4 gate you could have easily just busted up his ramp and killed him... you gave him the time to come back in the game and get his upgrades going... why did you go 4 gate if you weren't going to kill him? mine as well just put down 2 or 3 gates and expo quickly if u wanted an econ game. also you went 3 robo immortal AND templar tech and I didn't see any templars built.. for the price of throwing down 3 robos and building immortals you mine as well have gone collosus as the splash damage would be much better suited for those clumped up roaches. another thing I noticed is your army was mainly zealots and only like 3 sentries. all your zealots just got kyted so bad and did no damage without forcefields and guardian shield to back them up. espcially if you know he is going roach heavy you want to have a more stalker sentry immortal heavy army or collosus in your case since you defeinetly had the extra gas to do so | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 30 2011 22:58 Xenomorph wrote: What are some good BOs against a roach/infestor composition? Also any good ways to deny an aggressive zerg from taking a third? It seems once the third gets going its straight into broods and the game is over. A normal 3gate expand should be able to spot infestor roach with hallucination or late obs. Either way robo is a good answer, later on going to 5 gates when your 2base eco kicks in. Don't try to take a too quick third or you will most likely die. As for an aggressive zerg, if he can't deal damage he's behind. You should either be able to take him out with a good timing push if he commited too much earlier in the game or at least get a safe third yourself, which should mean the zerg player is behind in economy. | ||
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Rkie
United States1278 Posts
First of all, how should I respond as Protoss should i scout a 9 pylon/10 gateway into 4gate strat? The other Protoss surely has a worse economy, but his WG finishes almost 20 seconds before mine when i go 12 gateway. In PvT, I have a really hard time against mech. Against a Tank, Thor, Hellion, Banshee composition, how should I respond? All I have tried is 2robos massing immortals and a zealot archon composition with it. PvZ is my hardest MU. I always feel like I HAVE to expand early, or I lose. But, I believe that FFE is much weaker on maps with wide open naturals. What is a solid opening vs a 13 pool 18 or so hatch? Another thing I always have trouble against is roach/anything. Roaches seem like a complex unit that has no direct counter en masse, but rather, a mix of units is necessary to beat them. Against roach/corruptor, I try to go zealot stalker immortal, but always get run over by Brood Lords unless I kill them first. What would be smart to make against a heavy roach army? | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 31 2011 08:45 Rkie wrote: I have a few problems in each matchup. First of all, how should I respond as Protoss should i scout a 9 pylon/10 gateway into 4gate strat? The other Protoss surely has a worse economy, but his WG finishes almost 20 seconds before mine when i go 12 gateway. In PvT, I have a really hard time against mech. Against a Tank, Thor, Hellion, Banshee composition, how should I respond? All I have tried is 2robos massing immortals and a zealot archon composition with it. PvZ is my hardest MU. I always feel like I HAVE to expand early, or I lose. But, I believe that FFE is much weaker on maps with wide open naturals. What is a solid opening vs a 13 pool 18 or so hatch? Another thing I always have trouble against is roach/anything. Roaches seem like a complex unit that has no direct counter en masse, but rather, a mix of units is necessary to beat them. Against roach/corruptor, I try to go zealot stalker immortal, but always get run over by Brood Lords unless I kill them first. What would be smart to make against a heavy roach army? PvP I would advise going for a 3stalker rush to prevent proxy pylons, which will let you warp in before he reaches your base. From this point it should be easy. There are other versions of defense which includes forges and canons but I'm not too sure about them. PvT Don't get zealots vs mech if he gets blue flame hellions. I'd say abuse his mobility and harass him but if he has banshees that may pose a threat. However the composition you describe surely requires 3 or more bases and I think you can have carriers in time to defend any pushes if you play greedy. Air usually counters mech pretty good unless they have a lot of vikings as well. As for army composition for a straight up fight you want to use the units you said but you need anti air for banshees other than archons and I suggest you get a few colossus as well, as long as they are not focus fired they deal good damage from range to siege tanks. Everyone has different opinions on how to deal with mech. PvZ I suggest you 1-3gate expand if you want the most eco. 3gate expands are a bit outdated now and most zergs know how to defend your pressure while getting ahead and 1gate expand is pretty vulnerable to different all ins, so I suggest you try This build. I really like the opener but after that it's a bit too all-in for my taste. Stalker sentry deals pretty well with anything while you are getting your natural up and running. If your opponent continues to mass roaches you will need immortals and/or colossus. Immortal stalker high templar is a pretty strong army composition capable of fighting whatever the zerg may throw at you. This would be pretty much a direct counter to roach ling if used correctly. If you are fighting roach corroptor that is most likely a reaction to seeing a robotics bay or a colossus. At this point it is a good idea to either stop making colossus or make sure they live enough to be useful (old school void ray colossus stalker deathball is still good when you don't fight infestors). On 2 base I usually tech colossus and when on 3 I get 2 stargates to get a TON of voidrays. This army composition is also able to handle most zerg armies. By the way, don't get zealots unless you fight either lings or hydras. Roaches own them pretty bad and the minerals could go to canons defending your expansions instead. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 31 2011 09:10 uLysSeS1 wrote: small question: in PvT, going for a 1 gate FE, when should i do this off 2 gas (stalker,sentry,sentry) and when off 1 gas? That is probably not something you can scout and react with. If somehow you see the terran getting 2 REALLY fast gases you might want to do the 2 gas version for a faster robo. And here's a question for you: How does the 2 gas version survive a concussive shell rush with 2 marauders, 1 marine and 0-2 SCVs? That is beyond me but I have heard of this build several times so I guess there's a way. I guess you could let the nexus tank damage while forcefielding your ramp and waiting for the first warp in but if he brought SCVs you will just get bunker'd instead. | ||
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Boony
Australia87 Posts
I found this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140629 but is very old now and does not contain a real build order. These void ray builds are being used a lot in the gsl atm, surely someone has made a guide. Edit: I mean the PvT void ray all in. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On August 30 2011 14:50 Anihc wrote: You can't take your third as fast as the zerg, and generally you can't even take it a little afterwards. It's not an issue though, since it's ok for the zerg to have better econ than you. If you get your 3rd at the same time as the zerg and keep it, then you're way ahead. While you can tech to templar archive, if the zerg stays on roaches you really shouldn't be making any HT. Just mass stalker/sentry/immortal. Only if infestors and/or hydras come into play then should you start going HT. I'm always reluctant to get immortals since they suck against just about everything except for roaches and ultras. But I suppose I should start being more reactionary, since I'm going HT's for everything. It just seems like they work good against so many thing the zerg can go for: muta/ling, infestor play, and hydra heavy armies. But they don't seem to work great against roach in the mid game. And if I see the player go pure roach, and then I build immortals, and then he adds hydra, I feel like those immortals are no good now. Should I go back to fast colossus like I used to do? I just feel like blink is indespensible so I always get the TC before the robo. Anyways, as you can tell I am confused at where the match-up is right now and don't really know what the "standard" is in PvZ. Most games I watch are usually two base all-ins from the toss, and I mostly want to work on my macro game. So if anyone has good macro PvZ replays(preferably from pros) it would be greatly appreciated! | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
On August 31 2011 10:51 Boony wrote: Does anyone have a link to a Void ray all in build? I found this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140629 but is very old now and does not contain a real build order. These void ray builds are being used a lot in the gsl atm, surely someone has made a guide. Edit: I mean the PvT void ray all in. Hey I've been wondering this for a long time too so I decided to rip a pro game. It wasn't an all-in but got 3 gate stargate before the nexus so you could probably cut a probe or two, redirect a chrono boost from the nexus onto the core, and warp in units instead of a nexus for an all-in. Don't really know about the changes though... wait for some better players to respond! + Show Spoiler + Genius vs TOP GSL August Code S Ro8 Set1 @ XNFortress since Genius went for a void ray build May not be entirely accurate since it's based off a vod but here's what I've got: 9 Pylon 13 Gateway 14 Assimilator 16 Pylon 17 Cybernetics Core --> Stalker and Warpgate, both chrono boosted 18 Assimilator 25 (@150 Gas) Stargate 26 (@100 Gas) Sentry 28 (@300 Minerals) 2x Gateway (26 total probes, supplies assume you don't lose one) 30 (250/150) Void Ray, chrono boosted - he starts his at 5:15 33 Nexus (6:10, before 1st warp which consisted of sentries) I believe his chrono boost usage is as follows: 1 - nexus 2 - nexus 3 - nexus 4/5 - gateway [stalker]/core simultaneously 6 - core 7 - void ray 8 - nothing Reverse engineered based off warpgate research timing as well as the fact that he used a chrono boost at 5:15 on the void ray Hope this helps [edit for formatting/grammar] | ||
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