EPTOn August 27 2011 10:31 xlava wrote:
This is good but the second stalker is optional.
Just thought I should throw that in there.
This is good but the second stalker is optional.
Just thought I should throw that in there.
What? No it's not.
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 38
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monk
United States8477 Posts
What? No it's not. | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
It absolutely is optional. Depending on the map size that stalker may not even reach your main warp in area by the time your gates are ready. For example on Xel naga Caverns I might decide to make that stalker, however, on a map like Tal Darim making the stalker is pointless because it will not reach your stalker + zealot combo in time, and will delay your 4gate and nullify its effectiveness. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On August 27 2011 10:44 xlava wrote: It absolutely is optional. Depending on the map size that stalker may not even reach your main warp in area by the time your gates are ready. For example on Xel naga Caverns I might decide to make that stalker, however, on a map like Tal Darim making the stalker is pointless because it will not reach your stalker + zealot combo in time, and will delay your 4gate and nullify its effectiveness. No, it doesn't delay anything. There has never been more than 1 or 2 games in the pro scene that involved a 4 gate without that stalker. | ||
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MoreSore
Ireland73 Posts
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
1) colo/ht and other gateway stuff 2)mass gateway style | ||
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headbus
Canada173 Posts
On August 27 2011 11:16 MoreSore wrote: does a protoss want to hit every warp in except if he's building tech buildings ??? You want to try and keep warpgates on cooldown. That being said, if I expand off 3 gateways I won't be able to chrono 2 nexus's worth of probes, add forge/cannons and upgrades and robo's/council/stargates without missing a warp-in cycle. Finding the balance between being greedy with probes/tech/upgrades and being safe with gateway units and defenses is the key to getting into midgame with protoss. On August 27 2011 11:28 Corsica wrote: Hey guys what is the best set up for hotkeys for units (i use 2 3 4 for units) 1) colo/ht and other gateway stuff 2)mass gateway style Its all personal preference but I'll tell you my hotkey setup. 1,2,3,4 are units, 5 nexus, 6 stargate/robo, 7-8 cyber core, 9-0 forges. Generally I'll use 1 for zelots/archons ect, 2 for stalkers, 3 for collosus ect and 4 for some kind of harass unit dt's void prism ect. | ||
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LookNaph
Canada59 Posts
On August 27 2011 11:28 Corsica wrote: Hey guys what is the best set up for hotkeys for units (i use 2 3 4 for units) 1) colo/ht and other gateway stuff 2)mass gateway style For me it's: 1 for initial scout (later replaced by warp prism) 2 for stalkers 3 for zealots/sentries/colossus 4 for HTs 5 for gateways (and later replaced by robo after wg research) 6 for stargate 7 for nexus 8, 9 for observers 0 for some temporary unit/building (incomplete gateways so I can just transform to warp gate easily, or HTs so I can merge them easily etc.) | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
On August 27 2011 11:02 4kmonk wrote: No, it doesn't delay anything. There has never been more than 1 or 2 games in the pro scene that involved a 4 gate without that stalker. Not since the Yonghwa build became popular and especially not since the warpgate nerf. Before these 2 things one stalker one zealot was all that was really made and the 2nd pylon was delayed in favour of the cyber core first | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On August 28 2011 00:02 ZeromuS wrote: Not since the Yonghwa build became popular and especially not since the warpgate nerf. Before these 2 things one stalker one zealot was all that was really made and the 2nd pylon was delayed in favour of the cyber core first I think you read this conversation wrong. We're talking about 2nd stalker, not 2nd pylon. =P | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
On August 27 2011 10:44 xlava wrote: It absolutely is optional. Depending on the map size that stalker may not even reach your main warp in area by the time your gates are ready. For example on Xel naga Caverns I might decide to make that stalker, however, on a map like Tal Darim making the stalker is pointless because it will not reach your stalker + zealot combo in time, and will delay your 4gate and nullify its effectiveness. It doesnt delay anything and it's better to get it since you'll be up 1 stalker. I havent seen a 4 gate where a pro doesn't get that 2nd stalker | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:27 Xahhk wrote: Anyone have experience doing 1 gate expand but you build stalker, sentry sentry (gas at 19 or 18) before building nexus and then the gateways? Is this supposed to hold any 2 rax shenanigans on close positions? You can hold a 2 rax as long as you wait for your first round of warpins from your 3 finished gateways and good FFs. I usually have no trouble (I might have to let the nexus get hit for a bit but i'd rather not just lose the game outright compared to losing some health on a nexus). Big key is to be patient, when you think you have enough units and your FF control is good enough it's very easy to go Stalker -> Sentry -> sentry into nexus | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
Diamond ladder PvZ, I go for a FFE on TDA. Pylon scout finds his 6 pool so I abandon my forward choke and build a pylon near my nexus. Forge goes up after the pylon, and afterwards a cannon in my mineral line. I hold off the initial few lings, then afterwards he doesn't come at me with a ton of lings so I scout to see whether he has expoed, is going for roaches, etc. Probe arrives at his base to see a baneling nest... I target fire his banelings with my cannon and survive the first wave but then my cannon is dead and more banelings come so I die. Any tips on how to approach this sort of all-in would be appreciated. Should I have made a second gate, or more cannons, or what? I thought I scouted the baneling nest pretty early (sent probe out soon after the pressure let up) but I still didn't have much time to prepare. http://drop.sc/29707 Cheerio... | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:32 SnowK wrote: Can anyone approximate how many production buildings to build per expansion to keep money down? Usually when I do a fast expand build, things kind of skyrocket around the 8-10 minute mark once the bases have good worker counts. 3 gates and 1 robo per expansion, and start adding more once supply capped? 4 gates per expansion or make 2 gates a robo or stargate. This is usually a pretty good amount of production facilities but you might need more your macro is slipping or less if you lose probes to harass and so on. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 27 2011 10:10 xlava wrote: Yes I know this style. Its very gimmicky. I assume that they also drop blue flame hellions. Then because those (and the banshees) force stalkers they pump siege tanks off 2 bases and proceed to roll you over, because obviously stalkers are useless versus mass tank. I just had a game versus a practice partner and it got me quite angry. He essentially suicided mass blue flame hellions into my mineral lines the entire early - mid game without any micro whatsoever. I had awesome map control with observers everywhere and managed to deflect his attacks and take an early/normally timed third base while he stayed on 2 the ENTIRE game. I lost only around 20 probes total (which is VERY low all things considered), but had a stalker colossus based army, so when he rolled up with his maxed 2 base force of tanks I wasn't prepared. The stalkers melted to the siege tanks. I think the trick is to not get caught up in the stupid harass. You have to pump zealot immortal with a few colossi. Maybe cannon up your mineral line instead of building stalkers. I'd recommend suicidal phoenixes to thin out the siege tank fire when engaging. Obviously lead with immortals and follow up with the chargelots. Lastly, dts can do wonders here. Because terran can be complete bs and stay on 2 bases for what seems to be an infinitely long amount of time, their scans will be limited. Send in dts one at a time to snipe tanks. If he builds a raven, then you've either done enough damage to force him back (where you can proceed to harass his main) or you've thinned out the tank force enough for it to be more easily engaged. I know this is all three tech paths but tbh I don't know how else to stop it. I talk to a lot of high masters/GM terrans and they say that mech sucks versus Protoss. For the love of god I dont know why they say that, but whatever. All we can do is brainstorm and test it out. Hope this helps brotoss (coming from a masters protoss) I don't agree at all with what you say. The important things to note with mech is 1. It is incredibly powerful and 2. It is equally immobile. So once you are safe vs the initial harass you can take 3 or maybe even 4 bases really fast as his army grows stronger the larger it gets. You will be able to get an economic lead pretty easily if you don't die to any timing pushes and he will not be able to follow. If a mech player expands too much he has to thin out his defenses and you can strike at one point with your entire army. Personally I like to get colossi with blink stalkers and go for the terran's production facilites in the main while he's at his natural/third. So key is mobility and harass. You don't want to fight him head on because your forces will do just that, melt. The hellions will kill any zealots approaching the tanks, ghosts will EMP the immortals and then the tanks are going to clean up anything else coming. What mech can't do however is defend easily against air, I suggest going for voidrays/carriers and maybe a mothership as recall adds to your already superior mobility. Basetrades are also beneficial for the protoss in this situation as if you have your main/natural and two other bases on random positions on the map it's pretty much like blink vs robo PvP. The reason you can take bases across the map is because you only need a bunch of canons to defend from blue flame hellions, and if the terran sends his tanks he will be severly out of position and you can punish. Warp ins will also be able to defend your expansions from small amounts of units being sent to shut it down. Here's my general gameplan vs mech: 1. Take three bases ASAP. (2. in case of a timing push, do anything required to break it) 2. Get blink stalkers, colossi and double forge. Initiate harassment and deny him more bases. 4. More bases and by this time all mineral lines should have like 4 canons. 5. Tech switch into air if you cannot abuse his army composition in some way (ie. he's missing blue flame hellions, ghosts or something). 6. By this time you should either win because the terran has run out of money or units, if you lose it's probably becauase the terran's units were too cost effective. Just a note: Siege tanks really destroy colossi if micro'd properly, it's not even funny if you forget the immortals. Vikings aren't even necessary to deal with them. | ||
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Mcdank79
7 Posts
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ChopSuey2
United States50 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-228801.jpg) | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
On August 28 2011 00:26 4kmonk wrote: I think you read this conversation wrong. We're talking about 2nd stalker, not 2nd pylon. =P oh haha i guess i did >.< | ||
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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
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schmarx
Netherlands3 Posts
Also, what I've been wondering about: against a 2-rax/3-rax, what should your gateway unit mix look like? | ||
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Bibzball
France250 Posts
On August 29 2011 06:19 ChopSuey2 wrote: What did I do wrong this game? PvZ has just about always been my hardest MU, i always simply get out expand and overrun it seems like. Help please. Hey man, Pretty much in the same situation as yours, I feel like PvZ is a hard matchup atm because they got good at scouting what we're doing. Anywayz, I didnt see any major game changing stuff, the most obvious thing would be that you should have built more gates AS your 3rd was getting made. You made them after Z pushed and floated a ton of money at this time. Some small things - You got the information about the infestation pit, threw down that templar archive but did not make templar before researching storm and you moved in the middle of the map. 2 templars would have helped here. - Twilight council was made 1 whole minute before it did anything - Early game you did not make sentries out of gate 2 and 3 and waited for an entire cycle waiting for warp gate upgrade to finish and floated tons of resources. You could try and expand a little more agressively, at least try and put down the pylon on the low ground to bait these zerglings. If your forcefields are decent, you can move down the ramp with 4-6 sentries, which is the amount you can get when warp gate finishes with a 3 gate expand (3-4 out of the initial gate, and 2 in between the completion of the 2 other gates and the warp gate upgrade). I'm pretty sure you could have thrown down that expo at least a minute earlier. (could be discussed imo) - Also, i'm not sure about the forge timing, you may want to start these upgrades earlier, i'm surprised you did not use a forge to narrow down that choke in the front as you took your natural (could be also discussed) My 2c :-) | ||
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