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On August 24 2011 10:45 SigmaX wrote:
@Happyness - depends on their unit composition really.
If they're heavy Ling/Mutas - Archons do great against them with Zealots.
However, with Roach/Hydra composition - I think it would be better to use HT storms and then morph into Archon (or just get Collosus). Mass Roaches (with hydra support) do pretty good against Zealot/Archon composition.
Ya, after more game I think you are right. Maybe I should have started out with the question: HOW THE HELL DO YOU TAKE A THIRD SAFELY AGAINST A GOOD ZERG(especially if they are going infestor heavy)!? I really can't fiqure it out because I feel the roach-ling-infestor army is so strong in the mid game plus you have to worry about infested terran shenanigans.
That's really the challenge for me right now. I feel confident in my 200 army against the zergs 200 army, but for the rest of the game I feel extremely vulnerable.
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Just had an interesting thought--Hallucination to scout with phoenixes in the mid-game in PvP since it's so difficult to do with observers. Haven't really seen it done before but it makes more sense in my mind.
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On August 26 2011 10:09 Heavenly wrote:
Just had an interesting thought--Hallucination to scout with phoenixes in the mid-game in PvP since it's so difficult to do with observers. Haven't really seen it done before but it makes more sense in my mind.
It does... But Pvp rarely hits mid game right now... Some say it might change with patch. That being said... You don't (shouldn't) be getting too many sentries in pvp anyway. If you are trying to find out when he takes and exp, and you send a phoenix every 2 mins... Well then you wont have time to react properly anyway.
Atm I only use it against Z, but lately I've been thinking about using them abit in the mid/lategame vs T, because no matter what he has in his army, the phoenix is so fast that you can get a great idea about his composion and the size of the army + upgrades... and then you can make your call on weather to attack or not at the particular point.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 26 2011 11:01 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 10:09 Heavenly wrote:
Just had an interesting thought--Hallucination to scout with phoenixes in the mid-game in PvP since it's so difficult to do with observers. Haven't really seen it done before but it makes more sense in my mind. It does... But Pvp rarely hits mid game right now...
Not true.
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On August 26 2011 11:01 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 10:09 Heavenly wrote:
Just had an interesting thought--Hallucination to scout with phoenixes in the mid-game in PvP since it's so difficult to do with observers. Haven't really seen it done before but it makes more sense in my mind. It does... But Pvp rarely hits mid game right now... Some say it might change with patch. That being said... You don't (shouldn't) be getting too many sentries in pvp anyway. If you are trying to find out when he takes and exp, and you send a phoenix every 2 mins... Well then you wont have time to react properly anyway. Atm I only use it against Z, but lately I've been thinking about using them abit in the mid/lategame vs T, because no matter what he has in his army, the phoenix is so fast that you can get a great idea about his composion and the size of the army + upgrades... and then you can make your call on weather to attack or not at the particular point.
pylon on low ground, hallu flys in, warp dts into back of base, unprepared terran dies
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After 3 gate sentry expanding I never have any idea if I should pressure my zerg opponent. I feel a lot of the time I am letting him over drone but at the same time I am paranoid about moving out and losing my precious sentries to lings or roaches. What is a safe way to do this. Halluciniation and check for 3 bases? Check for lair? PvZ is my worst match up and I feel its because I lack reaction.
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On August 26 2011 12:53 Mitchlew wrote:
After 3 gate sentry expanding I never have any idea if I should pressure my zerg opponent. I feel a lot of the time I am letting him over drone but at the same time I am paranoid about moving out and losing my precious sentries to lings or roaches. What is a safe way to do this. Halluciniation and check for 3 bases? Check for lair? PvZ is my worst match up and I feel its because I lack reaction.
3 gate expand has kind of fallen out of favor as zerg can punish it pretty handily. what most do now is on any map with a wallable choke its almost always a FFE, on open maps, i think there is a 1 gate expand that is done, but also voidray expands are pretty good too.
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Canada13392 Posts
Ive been playing around with Twilight robo builds lately and chargelots, immortals and some stalkers have been shutting down one base robo builds quite well. I often prefer the gates into Robo THEN twilight. While I am technically sacrificing a potential blink timing I feel better having an observer and scouting the opponents build. Often I will decide to get charge before blink If I see that they are going collossus with more stalkers and I get more immortals (dont know if this is completely correct response though).
My biggest issue comes after I am able to expand and hold the opponents attack. I never feel comfortable attacking into a robo and colossus focused player. Often when I kill their push its because I met them in an open area on the map. Attacking into a natural or a third always makes it more difficult for me to get the amount of surface area I need to kill them. I do eventually get archons but its hard to outright kill the opponent and eventually they get so many collosi theres not much I can do.
How should I follow up holding a one base timing with chargelots and immortals and still win the game. I often lose even though I end up way ahead thanks to many collossi.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 26 2011 23:16 ZeromuS wrote:
Ive been playing around with Twilight robo builds lately and chargelots, immortals and some stalkers have been shutting down one base robo builds quite well. I often prefer the gates into Robo THEN twilight. While I am technically sacrificing a potential blink timing I feel better having an observer and scouting the opponents build. Often I will decide to get charge before blink If I see that they are going collossus with more stalkers and I get more immortals (dont know if this is completely correct response though).
My biggest issue comes after I am able to expand and hold the opponents attack. I never feel comfortable attacking into a robo and colossus focused player. Often when I kill their push its because I met them in an open area on the map. Attacking into a natural or a third always makes it more difficult for me to get the amount of surface area I need to kill them. I do eventually get archons but its hard to outright kill the opponent and eventually they get so many collosi theres not much I can do.
How should I follow up holding a one base timing with chargelots and immortals and still win the game. I often lose even though I end up way ahead thanks to many collossi.
Contain him on 3 base versus 2 while spending your gas on archon/upgrades and your minerals on gateways. Check my profile for a guide on this topic. Submit a replay for better advice.
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On August 26 2011 12:53 Mitchlew wrote:
After 3 gate sentry expanding I never have any idea if I should pressure my zerg opponent. I feel a lot of the time I am letting him over drone but at the same time I am paranoid about moving out and losing my precious sentries to lings or roaches. What is a safe way to do this. Halluciniation and check for 3 bases? Check for lair? PvZ is my worst match up and I feel its because I lack reaction.
Hi
I've been doing this build lately:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Mozdk1?feature=mhee#p/a/f/1/IOl6WJCmASw
Have done it 8 times on maps where I don't FFE. It has won me the game 6 times. It's very strong. (Diamond toss here)
Squirtle goes for 32 probes... I go for around the same... While nexus is warping I add 2 more gates... and stop making probes... Warp in 3 stalkers while gates are warping... And then 5 more when they finish. Then forward pylon and push. When I attack I usually face an army under half my size... Then it's all about breaking the few spines, and then just keep him in his main with force fields. That way you can kill of all the workers he transferred.
Few notes on the build: Once you've added a warping or 2 at the forward pylon, start probing back home, and add a robo when you can. You have no detection at this point. It's very important that he doesn't see your 2 additional gates. Place them somewhat like squirtle does.
Also: The greatest thing about this build is that the more harass he does with lings to delay your nexus, the better this build actually becomes, because to hold this, he needs to drone enough to actually hold it... But if he drones too hard he is toast... If he takes a 3rd he is toast too. It hits at 9-9:30.
3G expand is pretty outdated tho. If you do this you have to be aggressive with it to force lings / roaches. Otherwise the zerg is maxed in 14 mins and you will just die.
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On August 26 2011 23:16 ZeromuS wrote:
Ive been playing around with Twilight robo builds lately and chargelots, immortals and some stalkers have been shutting down one base robo builds quite well. I often prefer the gates into Robo THEN twilight. While I am technically sacrificing a potential blink timing I feel better having an observer and scouting the opponents build. Often I will decide to get charge before blink If I see that they are going collossus with more stalkers and I get more immortals (dont know if this is completely correct response though).
My biggest issue comes after I am able to expand and hold the opponents attack. I never feel comfortable attacking into a robo and colossus focused player. Often when I kill their push its because I met them in an open area on the map. Attacking into a natural or a third always makes it more difficult for me to get the amount of surface area I need to kill them. I do eventually get archons but its hard to outright kill the opponent and eventually they get so many collosi theres not much I can do.
How should I follow up holding a one base timing with chargelots and immortals and still win the game. I often lose even though I end up way ahead thanks to many collossi.
Not sure what level you are playing at, but if you expand before and engagement in PVP and hold off his push (which is very hard imo), you are way ahead. You don't wanna attack without collosi? Fine then add another robo and a bay and you'll be producing 2 at a time. Attack when you have 4 and range... and gg.
Or you could go stargate and use phoenix to take out collosi... Or harass probes. He wont have many stalkers if he is 1 basing collosi.
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Could someone post a replay of a "perfect" 5:42 4-gate? I'm just switching to protoss and want to learn how to 4gate before learning anti 4gate builds.
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Can anyone approximate how many production buildings to build per expansion to keep money down? Usually when I do a fast expand build, things kind of skyrocket around the 8-10 minute mark once the bases have good worker counts. 3 gates and 1 robo per expansion, and start adding more once supply capped?
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On August 26 2011 08:54 xmikeyy17x wrote:
thank you dude!
i don't know why i havn't seen that!
unfortunately 2rax is still a problem.. as for immortals don't really help much against rines.
Yes - 2 rax can still be an issue. This issue is at the heart of dealing with the 1-1-1. Early Expansions are required to stop the 1-1-1, but Terrans can trick you and come with a 2-rax push instead that can kill you or delay your expansion.
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In PvT
any one know what type of unit comp should fight a late game mech terran? IE 10+ siege tanks, ghosts, BFH and vikings with some ups. and turrets scattered everywhere... I'm talking GM or high masters level of play.
basically they start with banshee or drop harassment and my games vs GM's are going past 3 base, and once they start building PF's at expos i can no longer really harass them anymore. and they start getting a big tank line.
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in PvZ
How do you handle an opponent that as soon as your main army is not in one of your bases run a bunch of lings in there and kill of the workers/the nexus before you manage to get your army there and dont have enough warpgates to handle it ? ive been having alot of trouble with it lately and cant figure out how to beat it.
its generally mid-late game when i have 2+ bases that the problem becomes apparent.
thanks
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On August 27 2011 06:03 whoppen wrote:
in PvZ
How do you handle an opponent that as soon as your main army is not in one of your bases run a bunch of lings in there and kill of the workers/the nexus before you manage to get your army there and dont have enough warpgates to handle it ? ive been having alot of trouble with it lately and cant figure out how to beat it.
its generally mid-late game when i have 2+ bases that the problem becomes apparent.
thanks
Few cannons close to minerals. Especially important at a 3rd... Like on maps like xel naga where it's a bit more vulnerable... And then you should be able to warp in like 8-10 zealots or stalkers when it comes...
If were are talking about a huge amount of lings, then I pull them to the natural and just take my main army and go kill him. It really comes down to the call. Can your army make it back and save 90% of workers? Can you kill his 3rd or 4th?
Pylons in the perimeter of the base, or on the most likely attack rute... This will give you a few extra seconds of respond time. Also watch towers and observers will help you out.
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On August 27 2011 03:39 KiF1rE wrote:
In PvT
any one know what type of unit comp should fight a late game mech terran? IE 10+ siege tanks, ghosts, BFH and vikings with some ups. and turrets scattered everywhere... I'm talking GM or high masters level of play.
basically they start with banshee or drop harassment and my games vs GM's are going past 3 base, and once they start building PF's at expos i can no longer really harass them anymore. and they start getting a big tank line.
Yes I know this style. Its very gimmicky. I assume that they also drop blue flame hellions. Then because those (and the banshees) force stalkers they pump siege tanks off 2 bases and proceed to roll you over, because obviously stalkers are useless versus mass tank.
I just had a game versus a practice partner and it got me quite angry. He essentially suicided mass blue flame hellions into my mineral lines the entire early - mid game without any micro whatsoever. I had awesome map control with observers everywhere and managed to deflect his attacks and take an early/normally timed third base while he stayed on 2 the ENTIRE game. I lost only around 20 probes total (which is VERY low all things considered), but had a stalker colossus based army, so when he rolled up with his maxed 2 base force of tanks I wasn't prepared. The stalkers melted to the siege tanks.
I think the trick is to not get caught up in the stupid harass. You have to pump zealot immortal with a few colossi. Maybe cannon up your mineral line instead of building stalkers. I'd recommend suicidal phoenixes to thin out the siege tank fire when engaging. Obviously lead with immortals and follow up with the chargelots. Lastly, dts can do wonders here. Because terran can be complete bs and stay on 2 bases for what seems to be an infinitely long amount of time, their scans will be limited. Send in dts one at a time to snipe tanks. If he builds a raven, then you've either done enough damage to force him back (where you can proceed to harass his main) or you've thinned out the tank force enough for it to be more easily engaged. I know this is all three tech paths but tbh I don't know how else to stop it. I talk to a lot of high masters/GM terrans and they say that mech sucks versus Protoss. For the love of god I dont know why they say that, but whatever. All we can do is brainstorm and test it out.
Hope this helps brotoss 
(coming from a masters protoss)
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On August 27 2011 03:00 blinkblue wrote:
Could someone post a replay of a "perfect" 5:42 4-gate? I'm just switching to protoss and want to learn how to 4gate before learning anti 4gate builds.
9pylon ( chrono when finishes)
12 gate (chrono after starting)
14 gas
16 pylon
17 core ( cut a probe here to make core INSTANTLY after gateway)
18 zealot
Warpgate Immediately
22 Stalker (1 Chrono, Rest of Chrono on Warp Tech)
24 cut probes, 3x gateways
24 Stalker
26 pylon( I like to build 2 under their ramp so they finish at around 5:35-540) You can also make one reasonably near their base and make the next pylons at their ramp.
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On August 27 2011 10:23 Pawsom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 03:00 blinkblue wrote:
Could someone post a replay of a "perfect" 5:42 4-gate? I'm just switching to protoss and want to learn how to 4gate before learning anti 4gate builds. 9pylon ( chrono when finishes) 12 gate (chrono after starting) 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core ( cut a probe here to make core INSTANTLY after gateway) 18 zealot Warpgate Immediately 22 Stalker (1 Chrono, Rest of Chrono on Warp Tech) 24 cut probes, 3x gateways 24 Stalker 26 pylon( I like to build 2 under their ramp so they finish at around 5:35-540) You can also make one reasonably near their base and make the next pylons at their ramp.
This is good but the second stalker is optional.
Just thought I should throw that in there.
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EPT
