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The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 36

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action.
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-25 14:20:18
August 25 2011 14:19 GMT
#701
^ I'm not really sure what to tell you - you already identified your macro as the problem in 2 matchups, and you know exactly which Terran opener gives you the most trouble in PvT, which would suggest you should go research that one more and find a good way to identify and counter it... if you're hoping one of us can tell you where to find the radioactive spider that gives you perfect mechanics when it bites you so you don't have to practice them, I'm afraid none of us has found it yet.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
justiceknight
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Singapore5741 Posts
August 25 2011 14:34 GMT
#702
ok i have trouble with PVT opening especially after cyber core

i scouted his base, 1 rax @ ramp walled with/without depotand 1 gas
zlot then boost stalker,stalker to the ramp
I see no add on on rax and few marines w/o bunker

what should TOSS do???? expo? 3 gate robo? or dt?

and also when do you get 2nd gas? is it a MUST to get 2nd gas after putting down cyber core?
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
August 25 2011 14:55 GMT
#703
On August 25 2011 23:34 justiceknight wrote:
ok i have trouble with PVT opening especially after cyber core

i scouted his base, 1 rax @ ramp walled with/without depotand 1 gas
zlot then boost stalker,stalker to the ramp
I see no add on on rax and few marines w/o bunker

what should TOSS do???? expo? 3 gate robo? or dt?

and also when do you get 2nd gas? is it a MUST to get 2nd gas after putting down cyber core?


If there's no bunker and only marines, you can repeatedly poke up with stalkers and keep getting more and more information without any danger. If it's just 1 rax marines and you're CBing stalkers, you should be able to kill/harass 1 rax marines and force terran to show either another rax of units or some sort of tech (i.e. hellion, tank to help defend).

Most likely it's some sort of 1-1-1, so I would respond with an expansion and a relatively quick robo.

Also 2nd gas is not a MUST after core, personally I prefer late 2nd gas in all situations, and I don't usually get it until after I expand (either 1 gate FE or 3 gate FE). Most people prefer to get it earlier though.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8477 Posts
August 25 2011 16:00 GMT
#704
On August 25 2011 22:19 Qwes wrote:
I'm a Gold league Toss trying to improve my play and I'm having a difficult time doing so, especially with the builds I've been using. Obviously I'm not blaming the builds (they were perfected by players much better than I), but the sudden losing streak I'm on has shaken my confidence that I'm not going down the right path.

I've gathered advice from a few sources, most of which came from TL.net, that suggested sticking to one build per matchup is the best way to improve play, and that only after you've mastered a specific build should you then go on to the next. I want to improve macro so I've picked builds I think help me do that, but at the same time I'm not sure if I chose wisely over-all.

PvT: 2GATE FAST OBS FE
I've been practicing this build as much as I can but I get absolutely destroyed by any Terran player doing a 2Rax pressure FE, which admittedly isn't every game. By the six minute mark I have 1 Zealot, 1 Sentry, and 1 Stalker with 1 Gateway, a Robo, and my Warpgate at about 80% researched. This is right about the time I warp in my Nexus, but seems to be the time I get attacked by a 5-7 Marine 1-3 Marauder push. Even if I cancel my Nexus, I don't have the production facilities to counter the attack. And I don't see how I can scout this since they attack right when my Obs is out and my probe is either killed/unable to scout anything. Is my macro just shit, are my timings for the build off, or does this build simply get countered by 2Rax MM pressure?

PvZ: 3GATE SENTRY EXPAND
I have trouble with this build because I can't seem to spend my minerals fast enough along with the timings of the build. However I like this build and have so far been successful against Z in Gold league.

PvP: 4GATE
Yea...I hate this match-up. I always end up getting out-macro'ed by a player with better timings than me. Again, this isn't the builds fault, but the build itself is boring. When I try to switch it up to 3GATEROBO I still lose. Such is the reason I'm in Gold league I guess.

Blah, sort of a long post, but basically have I picked decent builds for my matchups to learn? Or should I not be focusing on these?


Pretty decent builds to pick up except for the 3rd one.

PvT: You should be able to scout a 2 rax attack incoming with a combination of watch towers and pokes. If so, don't build a nexus and make an immortal instead of an observer. You should also have a 2th sentry about close to finishing at around 6 minutes. Post a replay of you losing to 2 rax with 2 gate robo. I do have to say, however, that imo 2 rax has a slightly advantage over 2 gate robo, but by far it's not a counter.

PvZ: Is it that you don't know where to spend your minerals or you just don't have the macro to spend your minerals? If it's the former, post a replay.

PvP: Check my profile for a list of PvP builds that can allow you to advance into the macro game without 4 gating.
Moderator
Lisitsa
Profile Joined August 2011
Korea (South)29 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-25 16:27:41
August 25 2011 16:24 GMT
#705
PvP - 4 Gate and its counters

First of all, I would like to mention that I hate this mirror match up with a passion, just like about all of the Protoss players in the world I assume. If there is a pure coinflip, GIMMICKY match up in SC2 it would be PvP, and because of that I am not even interested in digging into and learning the match up properly - well, knowing how to 4 gate cover a majority of it, anyways.

However, the question I have now is the part that a 4 gate is not covering - at least without the proper knowledge I presume. As a referrance, I am a player who would rather play a 4 gate vs. 4 gate dogfight (which I am pretty confident at) than anything else in PvP that is bound to be even more stupid; well, at least that way the game ends fast and I can probably play another Terran or Zerg in the mean time. but recently I'm facing players who just refuse to go for 4 gate - they try to counter it with some other fancy build orders including a fast 3-4 stalkers killing my proxy pylons and then including sentries. In a map that has a fair distance and is NOT Tal'darim, seems like this sort of gimmicky build order actually seems to stop my 4 gate fairly well. Any advices on how to proceed?

By the way, thank you guys for responding to my last few questions. That helped me much - I now have about 30% win ratio vs Terran, up from 10% previously!
BW Zerg / SC2 Protoss
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
August 25 2011 16:28 GMT
#706
On August 26 2011 01:24 Lisitsa wrote:
PvP - 4 Gate and its counters

First of all, I would like to mention that I hate this mirror match up with a passion, just like about all of the Protoss players in the world I assume. If there is a pure coinflip, GIMMICKY match up in SC2 it would be PvP, and because of that I am not even interested in digging into and learning the match up properly - well, knowing how to 4 gate cover a majority of it, anways.

However, the question I have now is the part that a 4 gate is not covering - at least without the proper knowledge I presume. As a referrance, I am a player who would rather play a 4 gate vs. 4 gate dogfight (which I am pretty confident at) than anything else in PvP that is bound to be even more stupid; well, at least that way the game ends fast and I can probably play another Terran or Zerg in the mean time. but recently I'm facing players who just refuse to go for 4 gate - they try to counter it with some other fancy build orders including a fast 3-4 stalkers killing my proxy pylons and then including sentries. In a map that has a fair distance and is NOT Tal'darim, seems like this sort of gimmicky build order actually seems to stop my 4 gate farly well. Any advices on how to proceed?

By the way, thank you guys for responding to my last few questions. That helped me much - I now have about 30% win ratio vs Terran, up from 10% previously!


Wait, so are you asking what should do if you 4 gate every game and run into opponents who do 4 gate counter builds?

Micro better, do tricky stuff like send out 2 probes to make proxy pylons, or just don't 4 gate.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8477 Posts
August 25 2011 16:44 GMT
#707
On August 26 2011 01:24 Lisitsa wrote:
PvP - 4 Gate and its counters

First of all, I would like to mention that I hate this mirror match up with a passion, just like about all of the Protoss players in the world I assume. If there is a pure coinflip, GIMMICKY match up in SC2 it would be PvP, and because of that I am not even interested in digging into and learning the match up properly - well, knowing how to 4 gate cover a majority of it, anyways.

However, the question I have now is the part that a 4 gate is not covering - at least without the proper knowledge I presume. As a referrance, I am a player who would rather play a 4 gate vs. 4 gate dogfight (which I am pretty confident at) than anything else in PvP that is bound to be even more stupid; well, at least that way the game ends fast and I can probably play another Terran or Zerg in the mean time. but recently I'm facing players who just refuse to go for 4 gate - they try to counter it with some other fancy build orders including a fast 3-4 stalkers killing my proxy pylons and then including sentries. In a map that has a fair distance and is NOT Tal'darim, seems like this sort of gimmicky build order actually seems to stop my 4 gate fairly well. Any advices on how to proceed?

By the way, thank you guys for responding to my last few questions. That helped me much - I now have about 30% win ratio vs Terran, up from 10% previously!


How are 4 gate counter builds gimmicky? Also, over the past few months, PvP has developed into a less coin-flip matchup, with the better player winning a majority of the time. Yes, it is still unforgiving, but definately not as bad as you describe it.
Moderator
GeeRobb
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada36 Posts
August 25 2011 18:31 GMT
#708
What is the timing that my FFE into 6-7 gate +1 should be knocking down Zerg front door?
TossedPro.860
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
August 25 2011 18:53 GMT
#709
On August 26 2011 03:31 GeeRobb wrote:
What is the timing that my FFE into 6-7 gate +1 should be knocking down Zerg front door?


My first round of warp-ins arrive around 8:00.
blinkblue
Profile Joined May 2010
United States119 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-25 19:59:36
August 25 2011 19:12 GMT
#710
Mid-masters Terran switching to Protoss.

Could someone recommend me a...

1. PvZ opener that isn't forge FE? (what's the most standard? 2gate expo? 3gate expo?)

2. PvT robo opener that doesn't suck? gate-->robo-->gate-->expo? or should I really be focusing on 2gate/3gate expo and add a robo after?
Latedi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden1027 Posts
August 25 2011 20:42 GMT
#711
On August 26 2011 04:12 blinkblue wrote:
Mid-masters Terran switching to Protoss.

Could someone recommend me a...

1. PvZ opener that isn't forge FE? (what's the most standard? 2gate expo? 3gate expo?)

2. PvT robo opener that doesn't suck? gate-->robo-->gate-->expo? or should I really be focusing on 2gate/3gate expo and add a robo after?


1. That would be a 3gate sentry expand.

2. I think 2gate robo is fine but you may end up behind greedier builds. I'd say go 1gate FE into robo or 1gate robo into expand if you want more economy. Be careful though as both builds will die if you don't scout and react properly to early aggression.
I am Latedi.
blagoonga123
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2068 Posts
August 25 2011 21:22 GMT
#712
What's the best way to abuse close positions when you happen to get them on Shattered Temple against Zerg? Does the advantage go to P or Z in this case?
FOOL! Pain is my friend! Now let me introduce you to it!
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8477 Posts
August 25 2011 21:41 GMT
#713
On August 26 2011 06:22 blagoonga123 wrote:
What's the best way to abuse close positions when you happen to get them on Shattered Temple against Zerg? Does the advantage go to P or Z in this case?


Continuously apply pressure to force units and spines. Do not take any major risks. If you don't die to any allins, you should easily win. If it drags out to late game, you can take the 3rd non gold between your bases and apply even more pressure.
Moderator
Trusty
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand520 Posts
August 25 2011 22:13 GMT
#714
On August 26 2011 04:12 blinkblue wrote:
Mid-masters Terran switching to Protoss.

Could someone recommend me a...

1. PvZ opener that isn't forge FE? (what's the most standard? 2gate expo? 3gate expo?)

2. PvT robo opener that doesn't suck? gate-->robo-->gate-->expo? or should I really be focusing on 2gate/3gate expo and add a robo after?


PvT: just like you would FFE on some maps in PvZ, you need to be able to take a similar approach in PvT.

If it's a map like antiga/tal darim x positions, try to do one of the many 1gateFE's.

Smaller maps, 2gate robo is very very solid. I do not think 1gate Robo Nexus is that great anymore - 2rax reactor first crushes it harder than it does 1gate FE.
Abusion
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom184 Posts
August 25 2011 22:22 GMT
#715
hey I'm a plat toss and started playing 3/4 months before of season 2 and have fought to get better ever since. my question is after season 3 kicked in I got promoted straight to dia because I was winning so many games in the lock out and all of a sudden I'm getting demoted and I'm losing so many games against Z and T and destroying P as I believe I'm am better than most protoss at my mmr. To cut a long story short how much has an impact had of infestors and reactor first 2 rax and 1-1-1 pushes (which either put me really far behind or kill me outright on the occasions that they are used) had on the ''metagame''? p.s. my macro is way better than the people I face
Pylons + Probes
ShakaDEVIRGO
Profile Joined May 2011
Mexico106 Posts
August 25 2011 22:24 GMT
#716
master p

How do i punish fast infestor rush but against zergs that are super passive , i tried taking a fast third but the lings mobility denies that ,i also tired 6 or 7 gate all in but the infestors sometimes pop in time
and i f i am supper passive as well later i have to face 10+ infestors and broods and and at those supplies my comp lags so i cant micro very well =( so are there any timings to abuse ? or i should work in ht timings with archons, o and im referring in maps that u have to 3 gate expo in ffe maps i dont have problems
sorry for my barely comprehensible english
Latedi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden1027 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-25 22:47:12
August 25 2011 22:34 GMT
#717
On August 26 2011 07:22 Abusion wrote:
hey I'm a plat toss and started playing 3/4 months before of season 2 and have fought to get better ever since. my question is after season 3 kicked in I got promoted straight to dia because I was winning so many games in the lock out and all of a sudden I'm getting demoted and I'm losing so many games against Z and T and destroying P as I believe I'm am better than most protoss at my mmr. To cut a long story short how much has an impact had of infestors and reactor first 2 rax and 1-1-1 pushes (which either put me really far behind or kill me outright on the occasions that they are used) had on the ''metagame''? p.s. my macro is way better than the people I face


They have always been there, just now people start noticing them more. I don't think the effect has been big at all it just makes protoss players play a bit more safe.

On August 26 2011 07:24 ShakaDEVIRGO wrote:
master p

How do i punish fast infestor rush but against zergs that are super passive , i tried taking a fast third but the lings mobility denies that ,i also tired 6 or 7 gate all in but the infestors sometimes pop in time
and i f i am supper passive as well later i have to face 10+ infestors and broods and and at those supplies my comp lags so i cant micro very well =( so are there any timings to abuse ? or i should work in ht timings with archons, o and im referring in maps that u have to 3 gate expo in ffe maps i dont have problems
sorry for my barely comprehensible english


I recommend doing an archon zealot timing with weapon upgrades and charge. However you don't want to do that vs a lot of spines and it would be better if you pulled back. Also if the zerg rush for infestors (2base) you won't really be behind on 2 bases and you can get probes and tech on 2 bases, defending and taking a third when you feel safe. If you can sneak up a pylon at your third and canon/wall it that would be great and allows for an easy third base on some maps like tal darim altar or shakura's plateau.
I am Latedi.
xmikeyy17x
Profile Joined April 2011
United States92 Posts
August 25 2011 23:14 GMT
#718
how fast can i get archons up after 20 food expo and having a decent army of warpgate units?

possibly the only solution to fight against 2rax or 1/1/1
Latedi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden1027 Posts
August 25 2011 23:42 GMT
#719
On August 26 2011 08:14 xmikeyy17x wrote:
how fast can i get archons up after 20 food expo and having a decent army of warpgate units?

possibly the only solution to fight against 2rax or 1/1/1


This has been quoted to death in here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
It's for the 1-1-1

As for 2rax, getting up archons in time is pretty much impossible.
I am Latedi.
xmikeyy17x
Profile Joined April 2011
United States92 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 00:06:32
August 25 2011 23:54 GMT
#720
thank you dude!

i don't know why i havn't seen that!

unfortunately 2rax is still a problem.. as for immortals don't really help much against rines.

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