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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On September 01 2011 08:25 ZeromuS wrote:
Not protoss specific but I am horribly inconsistent. I went on a 2 week vacation and on my first day back I was 12 wins up on my losses for the day. The next day I was 12 wins down. The next I was even and today I lost 4 in a row the second to a disconnect after holding a roach ling all in.
How do I become more consistent and stop going on terrible tilt-ish losing sprees? I would love to play and win more than I lose or even break even every day I choose to ladder. But the uneveness of my wins and losses and streaks is extremely frustrating. Any tips?
Don't worry about it. Everyone is streaky on ladder, even the pros. Just take a break if you find yourself going on a big losing streak.
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On September 02 2011 04:45 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 04:19 Mackem wrote:
Few questions for a noob:
Can someone tell me/help me find the important timings for terran, zerg and toss i.e. what time I should be looking to scout and what sort of things should I be looking for?
Also, can someone help me with build orders for each MU? In PvP, I generally go for blink stalkers with +1 attack and a few immortals/sentries/zealots mixed in, but it just feels as though against T and Z I just end up making loads of production facilities that I can't afford to produce out of i.e. sometimes I throw down robo, stargate and templar archives all at the same time. Pretty stupid when I look at my replays.
Thanks. If you are a "noob" then I wouldn't worry too much about "timings." Seriously, just concentrate on macro. Use the general guideline of having ~3-4 production facilities per base you have. If you're teching/upgrading/making probes then you're closer to the 3 buildings per base, if you are stopping everything else and prepping for an attack you might even want to go for 4-5 production buildings per base. If you still can't produce out of everything, it just means you don't have enough probes. Make more probes. As for "what time I should be looking to scout," honestly at any point in the game you should be asking yourself, do I know what my opponent is doing right now? If the answer is no, then you should be scouting at that moment. Things to look for depends on what stage of the game it is, but generally the 2 most important things to scout for is 1) base count vs yours/is he prepping for an all-in/attack? and 2) what's his unit composition so I can make units to counter his.
Thanks for the help. I suppose most of it comes down to simply playing games, but I really need to learn what units counter what. Against terran, I normally do 3 gate robo and go for some colossi and a mix of gateway units to help against the MMM balls I face. PvZ I like to use archons a lot for some reason and PvP I do 3 gate robo and make sure I get immortals to help vs 4 gate. Only thing is I encounter a lot of wacky strats such as void rays, mass hydra or mass BCs. Scouting is my huge downfall though, really need to work on it. I'm probably gonna pump out two observers as soon as my robo is up to scout their base(s) but to also see any cloaked units and to see when he is pushing.
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On September 01 2011 11:26 dama wrote:
Do you scout after pylon or after gateway? Are there situations/matchups/maps where one is preferred over the other?
PvZ: always pylon scout. Not only does it help scout out early pools such as 6 pools, it can also be used to block the zerg from putting down their hatch at their natural until lings are out, which can be really annoying.
PvT: on 2 player maps you can consider pylon scouting because then you can harass their scv building the rax and delay their orbital. But as far as intel in general, pylon scouting isn't too crucial. I'd probably scout after gate for the most part after this.
PvP: this one is highly debatable. If you are really concerned about cheese, then pylon scout. But I do fine gateway scouting, I just check my base and nearby locations for proxy spots first before scouting the opponents base. And again other than proxy cheeses, a 9 pylon scout isn't going to give you significantly more intel than a gateway scout.
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On September 02 2011 02:57 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What do I do against Marine/Tank in TvP?
I'm in Silver and people do a lot of dumb crap.. like mass banshees or marine/tank in PvT :/ I had collossus/a few archons/mass zealots/some stalkers/sentry/2 immortals. I thought I'd completely countered it but my army got kinda rolled.
Storm maybe? I didn't engage very well (stalkers at front) so maybe its just a matter of positioning
404 Replay not found.
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I find gateway (12) scouting in pvp to be more useful. With a nine scout you may get to their base in time to see that they are proxy gating or cannon rushing.
If you scout well around common proxy locations such as the gold, tasteless's secret hallway and your natural on xel'naga I feel that a 12 scout is preferable. Protoss cannot deny scouting until the stalker comes out. Scouting around for proxies then getting into the opponents base late feels stronger to me personally.
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PvT: on 2 player maps you can consider pylon scouting because then you can harass their scv building the rax and delay their orbital. But as far as intel in general, pylon scouting isn't too crucial. I'd probably scout after gate for the most part after this.
Wondering about this, do both 9/13 scouting get you in in close positions but denied in cross/close air? Does the earlier 9 scout get in if they drop the early supply depot (just build for like 2 seconds), or is the margin large enough that they give you the same ability to scout (compared to each other) regardless of the spawns.
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On September 02 2011 05:23 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +PvT: on 2 player maps you can consider pylon scouting because then you can harass their scv building the rax and delay their orbital. But as far as intel in general, pylon scouting isn't too crucial. I'd probably scout after gate for the most part after this. Wondering about this, do both 9/13 scouting get you in in close positions but denied in cross/close air? Does the earlier 9 scout get in if they drop the early supply depot (just build for like 2 seconds), or is the margin large enough that they give you the same ability to scout (compared to each other) regardless of the spawns.
This depends on the map, for example close positions on shattered temple a 13 scout should get in, while a 9 scout on tal darim altar scouting terran last will not be able to get in. I'm not completely sure about my statement here but distance is a big factor when it comes to scouting. You must also have a plan for what to do if your probe gets sniped by the marine or can't get in.
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On September 01 2011 11:26 dama wrote:
Do you scout after pylon or after gateway? Are there situations/matchups/maps where one is preferred over the other?
9 scout PvZ for 6 pool defense. Other matchups either 12 or 13 scout depending on preference.
On September 01 2011 08:04 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 07:27 Latedi wrote:
How do you minimize probe losses from a hellion drop after a 1gate FE (yes that's PvT)? Usually I lose too many and the follow up marine tank banshee kills me good. Well here's a tip I can give without seeing a replay. Even if you know for a fact that he's going a factory, don't go gate robo gate gate after 1 gate expand. Always go gate gate gate robo. Going quick robo leaves you vulnerable to hellion/marine/medivac combos.
Good tip, I was going to say the same thing. If you 1 Gate FE, get your 3 Gates laid down, then the robo. I believe I like to go Gate Stalker Nexus Gate Gate Stalker Assimilator Robo. I try to make sure I can have an obs out by 7:30. I usually then get 2 Observers out, and depending on what the Terran does an Immortal or not before the Support Bay.
Also, seeing that a hellion drop is coming is the best way to prevent it from doing damage. Have the sides of the map in-vision.
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On September 02 2011 06:34 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 11:26 dama wrote:
Do you scout after pylon or after gateway? Are there situations/matchups/maps where one is preferred over the other? 9 scout PvZ for 6 pool defense. Other matchups either 12 or 13 scout depending on preference. Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 08:04 4kmonk wrote:On September 01 2011 07:27 Latedi wrote:
How do you minimize probe losses from a hellion drop after a 1gate FE (yes that's PvT)? Usually I lose too many and the follow up marine tank banshee kills me good. Well here's a tip I can give without seeing a replay. Even if you know for a fact that he's going a factory, don't go gate robo gate gate after 1 gate expand. Always go gate gate gate robo. Going quick robo leaves you vulnerable to hellion/marine/medivac combos. Good tip, I was going to say the same thing. If you 1 Gate FE, get your 3 Gates laid down, then the robo. I believe I like to go Gate Stalker Nexus Gate Gate Stalker Assimilator Robo. I try to make sure I can have an obs out by 7:30. I usually then get 2 Observers out, and depending on what the Terran does an Immortal or not before the Support Bay. Also, seeing that a hellion drop is coming is the best way to prevent it from doing damage. Have the sides of the map in-vision.
About the scouting in PvP, isn't it problematic defending a proxy 2gate if you don't actually see the gates and you scout at 12/13? Since you will have wasted time scouting maybe 3 locations before you went to his base.
And about PvT, I have tried what 4kmonk suggested and it works really well so far, just walling blindly between my nexus and the back of my base and then leaving all stalkers in the mineral line if I scout a bunker.
Seeing a hellion drop coming? I don't see that being possible as it can come really quickly, especially if you get 2 more gates before the robo. Then you also need to account for the time it takes to get to your opponent's base. I could pick up the timings from a replay but I'm to lazy so I'll stick to the theory crafting.
Ok another question: How do you defend your mineral lines vs banshees if you only have only 1 observer? When he has 2 banshees there's obviously going to be complications. Maybe you can build obs obs immortal obs immortal from the robo?
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hmm i just thought i'd share my thoughts D:
For my PvP i've been doing the 3 gate robo twilight build, where i get 2 immortals then blink and mass up alot of stalkers (stop probes @ 24, or 20 now to think about it :S) and then all in. seems to work 90% of the time, sometimes i dont win (idk how) and i gotta fall back into a nexus and colossus wars, it gets iffy but again 90% of the time robo twilight is working for me.
PvT is my other good matchup, i've been doing the 1gate FE into 2 more gate ways (so 3) and then the robo. and from there i chrono 2 obs and then immortals as needed. if i see its a drop/hellion/banshee play ill position stalkers at the mineral lines, if i see 1/1/1 all in, i chrono the immortals and make lots of zealots and supliment with only a few stalkers/sentries (for guardian shield). Late game i'm liking the zealot archon mix with a warp prism filled with templar ready to storm, oh and upgrades. this side to robo twilight is really nice. ohhh and late game if the terran is turtling super hard with tanks on ledges and stuff, i get a stargate and get phoenix to lift the tanks and walk the zealot archons up and drop and storm its saweeet.
PvZ this used to be my best matchup who knows what happened here. sticking with robo twilight because i want to make it work, i have 2 openers. FFE if the map allows, or 3 gate sentry expo. lately however i find that upgrades+blink+colossus is the better route of the robo twilight for pvz. even against ling infestor its nice to blink a small group of stalkers on the infestors and hold. late game archons are helpful, maybe HT's to feedback if there's alot alot of infestors. but again this matchup has drifted away from me.
But really i like the robo twilight builds, i like that in pvp i make it an all in, in pvt i see the zealot/archon/warp prism+templar play, and in pvz its blink colossus (subject to change).
and then in a bo5 or bo3 series against any one matchup there are variations you can go and neat little things to utilize with the warp prism.
i think really its just "mechanics" ie; macro during fights rather than always microing, knowing when and when not to make the probes and be good at it, scouting/reacting.
meh idk if anyone else is doing alot of robo/twilight builds in their pvx matchups but yeahhh
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On September 02 2011 12:41 ePBuckets wrote:
hmm i just thought i'd share my thoughts D:
For my PvP i've been doing the 3 gate robo twilight build, where i get 2 immortals then blink and mass up alot of stalkers (stop probes @ 24, or 20 now to think about it :S) and then all in. seems to work 90% of the time, sometimes i dont win (idk how) and i gotta fall back into a nexus and colossus wars, it gets iffy but again 90% of the time robo twilight is working for me.
PvT is my other good matchup, i've been doing the 1gate FE into 2 more gate ways (so 3) and then the robo. and from there i chrono 2 obs and then immortals as needed. if i see its a drop/hellion/banshee play ill position stalkers at the mineral lines, if i see 1/1/1 all in, i chrono the immortals and make lots of zealots and supliment with only a few stalkers/sentries (for guardian shield). Late game i'm liking the zealot archon mix with a warp prism filled with templar ready to storm, oh and upgrades. this side to robo twilight is really nice. ohhh and late game if the terran is turtling super hard with tanks on ledges and stuff, i get a stargate and get phoenix to lift the tanks and walk the zealot archons up and drop and storm its saweeet.
PvZ this used to be my best matchup who knows what happened here. sticking with robo twilight because i want to make it work, i have 2 openers. FFE if the map allows, or 3 gate sentry expo. lately however i find that upgrades+blink+colossus is the better route of the robo twilight for pvz. even against ling infestor its nice to blink a small group of stalkers on the infestors and hold. late game archons are helpful, maybe HT's to feedback if there's alot alot of infestors. but again this matchup has drifted away from me.
But really i like the robo twilight builds, i like that in pvp i make it an all in, in pvt i see the zealot/archon/warp prism+templar play, and in pvz its blink colossus (subject to change).
and then in a bo5 or bo3 series against any one matchup there are variations you can go and neat little things to utilize with the warp prism.
i think really its just "mechanics" ie; macro during fights rather than always microing, knowing when and when not to make the probes and be good at it, scouting/reacting.
meh idk if anyone else is doing alot of robo/twilight builds in their pvx matchups but yeahhh
Yeah robo/twilight is really awesome right now  I can't speak for next patch though. About the PvP build, I think you should not all in with immortals and rather 4gate robo, because if your opponent has forcefields you are only going to be able to get in with your stalkers, and then his army should be stronger. It would also mean you just used blink and a bunch of stalker will die before they can blink back down. The variation where you only get obs and blink stalkers is pretty awesome if you want to try.
The PvT is nice too I love 1gate FE :d Personally I prefer to get double forge after I have 3 gateways if I'm scouting normal bio play with an expansion. The robo just feels like it's in the way of me getting an army which is not easily countered by vikings. Most terrans get medivacs before ghosts so HT tech is a good idea I feel like.
And when do you end up taking your third in PvZ? If you want colossi, blink and maybe +2 before you move out I think that is going to be pretty late.
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With the change to ramp vision, where warp ins can be denied with a force field, I think 3 gate into robo/twilight builds are really going to be that much stronger, now that you aren't relying on perfect micro to hold the ramp vs offensive 4 gate. Outside of Tal'darim or maps like it, 4 gate is likely to become much less common.
Of course, that's my opinion. I could be wrong.
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If the game is about even and its early midgame... do you guys ever stop producing units in favour of tech, or do you wait until you have the resources to tech?
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On September 03 2011 04:34 Babyschwein wrote:
If the game is about even and its early midgame... do you guys ever stop producing units in favour of tech, or do you wait until you have the resources to tech?
In what match up? If you are playing PvP you can tech if you are safe with a sentry, vs terran you have to produce units a bit more constant and vs zerg I feel like you can cut units for tech when your natural is safe with sentries and maybe a canon. Assuming you expanded in PvT and PvZ. Terran usually creates units pretty linear so to say while zerg can gear up for example for a roach ling all in. So I believe you are safe vs terran if you produce out of 3 gates as much as you can after your expansion is up while vs zerg you have to scout because you might need to produce a lot AND get canons.... I hope this made any sense but yes, sometimes you can cut units in favor of tech, it's all about being safe while doing it.
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On September 02 2011 08:36 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 06:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 01 2011 11:26 dama wrote:
Do you scout after pylon or after gateway? Are there situations/matchups/maps where one is preferred over the other? 9 scout PvZ for 6 pool defense. Other matchups either 12 or 13 scout depending on preference. On September 01 2011 08:04 4kmonk wrote:On September 01 2011 07:27 Latedi wrote:
How do you minimize probe losses from a hellion drop after a 1gate FE (yes that's PvT)? Usually I lose too many and the follow up marine tank banshee kills me good. Well here's a tip I can give without seeing a replay. Even if you know for a fact that he's going a factory, don't go gate robo gate gate after 1 gate expand. Always go gate gate gate robo. Going quick robo leaves you vulnerable to hellion/marine/medivac combos. Good tip, I was going to say the same thing. If you 1 Gate FE, get your 3 Gates laid down, then the robo. I believe I like to go Gate Stalker Nexus Gate Gate Stalker Assimilator Robo. I try to make sure I can have an obs out by 7:30. I usually then get 2 Observers out, and depending on what the Terran does an Immortal or not before the Support Bay. Also, seeing that a hellion drop is coming is the best way to prevent it from doing damage. Have the sides of the map in-vision. About the scouting in PvP, isn't it problematic defending a proxy 2gate if you don't actually see the gates and you scout at 12/13? Since you will have wasted time scouting maybe 3 locations before you went to his base. Ok another question: How do you defend your mineral lines vs banshees if you only have only 1 observer? When he has 2 banshees there's obviously going to be complications. Maybe you can build obs obs immortal obs immortal from the robo?
Wasted time looking around my side of the map for gates? Wasted time seeing what, him lay down a pylon followed by a core? There is a window of time in which you don't really need your probe in his base, if you know there are no gates near yours.
Build obs -> Rally to his base, order another one. You want 2 Observers usually anyways, unless you are rushing out Colossi for your build or something.
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On September 02 2011 22:43 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 12:41 ePBuckets wrote:
hmm i just thought i'd share my thoughts D:
For my PvP i've been doing the 3 gate robo twilight build, where i get 2 immortals then blink and mass up alot of stalkers (stop probes @ 24, or 20 now to think about it :S) and then all in. seems to work 90% of the time, sometimes i dont win (idk how) and i gotta fall back into a nexus and colossus wars, it gets iffy but again 90% of the time robo twilight is working for me.
PvT is my other good matchup, i've been doing the 1gate FE into 2 more gate ways (so 3) and then the robo. and from there i chrono 2 obs and then immortals as needed. if i see its a drop/hellion/banshee play ill position stalkers at the mineral lines, if i see 1/1/1 all in, i chrono the immortals and make lots of zealots and supliment with only a few stalkers/sentries (for guardian shield). Late game i'm liking the zealot archon mix with a warp prism filled with templar ready to storm, oh and upgrades. this side to robo twilight is really nice. ohhh and late game if the terran is turtling super hard with tanks on ledges and stuff, i get a stargate and get phoenix to lift the tanks and walk the zealot archons up and drop and storm its saweeet.
PvZ this used to be my best matchup who knows what happened here. sticking with robo twilight because i want to make it work, i have 2 openers. FFE if the map allows, or 3 gate sentry expo. lately however i find that upgrades+blink+colossus is the better route of the robo twilight for pvz. even against ling infestor its nice to blink a small group of stalkers on the infestors and hold. late game archons are helpful, maybe HT's to feedback if there's alot alot of infestors. but again this matchup has drifted away from me.
But really i like the robo twilight builds, i like that in pvp i make it an all in, in pvt i see the zealot/archon/warp prism+templar play, and in pvz its blink colossus (subject to change).
and then in a bo5 or bo3 series against any one matchup there are variations you can go and neat little things to utilize with the warp prism.
i think really its just "mechanics" ie; macro during fights rather than always microing, knowing when and when not to make the probes and be good at it, scouting/reacting.
meh idk if anyone else is doing alot of robo/twilight builds in their pvx matchups but yeahhh
Yeah robo/twilight is really awesome right now I can't speak for next patch though. About the PvP build, I think you should not all in with immortals and rather 4gate robo, because if your opponent has forcefields you are only going to be able to get in with your stalkers, and then his army should be stronger. It would also mean you just used blink and a bunch of stalker will die before they can blink back down. The variation where you only get obs and blink stalkers is pretty awesome if you want to try. The PvT is nice too I love 1gate FE :d Personally I prefer to get double forge after I have 3 gateways if I'm scouting normal bio play with an expansion. The robo just feels like it's in the way of me getting an army which is not easily countered by vikings. Most terrans get medivacs before ghosts so HT tech is a good idea I feel like. And when do you end up taking your third in PvZ? If you want colossi, blink and maybe +2 before you move out I think that is going to be pretty late.
Robo Twilight is great. :o I even get a robo in PvT even when they don't get marauders because of observers, warp prisms, blink, and high templars. This allows me to harass hard once I get everything up off of 6 gates.
I'm trying it out in PvZ still, but I think stargate is better.
PvP Robo Blink is so strong (I think it's IMBA lol).
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Hi - just wanted to make sure I've got the right idea here. I lost a PvP earlier today; I went 3 gate blink and he went robo so I expanded behind it and set up for a contain. He pushed out with 3 immortals around 8-9 minutes and just rolled me; in this situation, I should go for a base race, right? I tried to defend and well... it didn't work out very well.
I have the replay but it's a pretty standard scenario so I don't want to waste anyone's time...
Somewhat related: what are some factors that go into choosing whether to take my natural or a far away expo? I've heard that blink can take far away expansions to abuse its mobility but I haven't really seen any pro players do that, they just take their natural anyways. It seems like far away expos would become a liability in the mid-late game when both players have blink.
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On September 03 2011 06:18 whistle wrote:
Hi - just wanted to make sure I've got the right idea here. I lost a PvP earlier today; I went 3 gate blink and he went robo so I expanded behind it and set up for a contain. He pushed out with 3 immortals around 8-9 minutes and just rolled me; in this situation, I should go for a base race, right? I tried to defend and well... it didn't work out very well.
I have the replay but it's a pretty standard scenario so I don't want to waste anyone's time...
Somewhat related: what are some factors that go into choosing whether to take my natural or a far away expo? I've heard that blink can take far away expansions to abuse its mobility but I haven't really seen any pro players do that, they just take their natural anyways. It seems like far away expos would become a liability in the mid-late game when both players have blink.
Typically I would only expand that fast if
1) I scout a support bay
2) Map has easy to defend natural (i.e. shakuras, antiga, nezarim, searing, backwater, maybe shattered - not metal, xel naga, typhon, etc.)
To defend against an attack with a lot of immortals like that you'll need sentries. FF is great against immortals and nonblink stalkers.
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On September 02 2011 06:34 CecilSunkure wrote:
Good tip, I was going to say the same thing. If you 1 Gate FE, get your 3 Gates laid down, then the robo. I believe I like to go Gate Stalker Nexus Gate Gate Stalker Assimilator Robo. I try to make sure I can have an obs out by 7:30. I usually then get 2 Observers out, and depending on what the Terran does an Immortal or not before the Support Bay.
Also, seeing that a hellion drop is coming is the best way to prevent it from doing damage. Have the sides of the map in-vision.
don't you instalose against 111 with such timing on robo? Especially if you get 2 obs. When the push comes you will hardly a single immortal out, right?
My question: what is the ideal composition against terran player who goes mech (mostly tanks + BFHs). I love "normal" PvT against bio where I go for masslots+sentries+HTs with fast upgrades and lots of gateways but I have no clue what to do when opponents goes mech. With BFH zealots are totally useless, stalkers die easily to tanks, storm doesn't work much against mech.. should I go for some tripple robo immortal production? I hope you won't tell me to go VRs because I find it extremely one trick ponyish.
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On September 03 2011 06:04 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 08:36 Latedi wrote:On September 02 2011 06:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 01 2011 11:26 dama wrote:
Do you scout after pylon or after gateway? Are there situations/matchups/maps where one is preferred over the other? 9 scout PvZ for 6 pool defense. Other matchups either 12 or 13 scout depending on preference. On September 01 2011 08:04 4kmonk wrote:On September 01 2011 07:27 Latedi wrote:
How do you minimize probe losses from a hellion drop after a 1gate FE (yes that's PvT)? Usually I lose too many and the follow up marine tank banshee kills me good. Well here's a tip I can give without seeing a replay. Even if you know for a fact that he's going a factory, don't go gate robo gate gate after 1 gate expand. Always go gate gate gate robo. Going quick robo leaves you vulnerable to hellion/marine/medivac combos. Good tip, I was going to say the same thing. If you 1 Gate FE, get your 3 Gates laid down, then the robo. I believe I like to go Gate Stalker Nexus Gate Gate Stalker Assimilator Robo. I try to make sure I can have an obs out by 7:30. I usually then get 2 Observers out, and depending on what the Terran does an Immortal or not before the Support Bay. Also, seeing that a hellion drop is coming is the best way to prevent it from doing damage. Have the sides of the map in-vision. About the scouting in PvP, isn't it problematic defending a proxy 2gate if you don't actually see the gates and you scout at 12/13? Since you will have wasted time scouting maybe 3 locations before you went to his base. Ok another question: How do you defend your mineral lines vs banshees if you only have only 1 observer? When he has 2 banshees there's obviously going to be complications. Maybe you can build obs obs immortal obs immortal from the robo? Wasted time looking around my side of the map for gates? Wasted time seeing what, him lay down a pylon followed by a core? There is a window of time in which you don't really need your probe in his base, if you know there are no gates near yours. Build obs -> Rally to his base, order another one. You want 2 Observers usually anyways, unless you are rushing out Colossi for your build or something.
What I mean is what if he proxies on a location that your probe doesn't scout? I guess that was a good move on his part but if the result is instant loss that makes me sad :<
I want to try with one less observer in PvT also :3 seems more fun and more effective if done right.
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EPT
