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United States8477 Posts
On August 19 2011 07:58 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 14:58 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 12:52 They_ wrote:
I've recently made a switch from zerg to protoss. I tend to know the zerg openings quite well but I want some feedback on my early-game build to each opener a zerg does. I tend to be really active with scouting throughout early to mid game (since I formerly played zerg). What I am lacking is the optimized response to what I scout.
If I see gas-pool : 3 gate expo
If i see hatch first : 4 gate
If I see pool first : I keep a scout near their base to see if their folllow up is a hatch or roach opener. If roach, I will stay on the defensive and sit on 3 gates.
Usually, my follow up after the early stage of the game will be reactionary as well.
I tend to make halluc phoenix to scout the zerg and see if their lair is early (greedily teching) or standard. If Z is riskly teching, I will 5/6 gate push. If they commit to heavily mutas, I will transition to stargate phoenix while staying on the defensive with sentry/stalker.If they go infestor, I will HT. Hydra/roach double evo builds are rare on the KR/TW server so I least expect it coming. But if it does, I will tech to robo.
For the maps that have a natural ramp, I most likely always FFE -> 1 stargate (3 VR harras) -> +1 Blink timing.
I always take my 3rd while I move out with my mid-game push.
I would also like to know as a Protoss, which maps should I veto?
Also, how is the current PvP metagame? Is it still 4 gating here and there?
Are there any gas timings for protoss? Or do I just get double gas everytime my nexus warps in. Since P seems like they are constantly starved out on gas. Contrary to popular belief, 4 gate is actually worse vs hatch first than vs gas pool. Gas pool allows the zerg for a better read and perhaps on the off chance, a pylon deny, but hatch first gives more units and a better econ to support the 4 gate defense. I have a follow up question to that statement. Do you ever descide to throw your gameplan away and go for a 4 gate vs T or Z after scouting a weakness you can abuse (say early second gas from Z or gasless expand from T)? I've tried this out once during a weak or so to just 4 gate once I scout something I might be able to abuse but I really never managed to understand what to look for. It felt like it all came down to how well i executed my build and how well he reacted to it. Therefor I never 4 gate all in against Z or T anymore.
4 gate is worse versus gasless expand than 1 rax gas expand. The terran can get more marines out when the 4 gate hits and he'll probably have more bunkers. 4 gate vs early 2 gas from zerg seems good, but I've never seen a competent zerg go for an early 2nd gas. This has never happened to me, but I guess I could justify going 4 gate vs zerg getting 2 gas. That's the only situation I can think of though.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 19 2011 08:28 Larias wrote:
Tips on holding roach rush after a forge FE please. Do I need a 2nd cannon?
Usually I only try Forge FE on huge maps where everyone does it - taldarim and shakuras. I've recently been trying to FFE on some of the new maps that have small chokes, but I find it difficult to hold off fast roaches. What units should I be making to defend against the roach/ling attack?
You should have scouted his main before a pool finishes. If so, check if he has a gas. If he does, hide your probe somewhere and go back into his main at around 4:00. Check his gas again. Are there still drones on it? How much gas has he mined? If he's mined more than 100 gas, then you should suspect a roach or baneling allin.
From there on, you need at least 2 well placed cannons. Do not hug your cannons against other buildings. Instead, place them one space behind those buildings so that roaches cannot target them.
Chorno out sentries and block any holes into your base with gateways/pylons as he kills your buildings.
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hi ppl i have one big qestione if can somebody help me.... how to cronobust warpgates faster ?
when i have plenty of warpgates wholl ower map... and i dont know how to cronobust and not spend plenty of time to find gates and to click on em... becous its wery hard and take me plenty of time.... end thx sry of my eng... 
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thx i will try it
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Remember you can just hold down C and then mouseclick mouseclick mouseclick.
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On August 19 2011 07:58 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 14:58 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 12:52 They_ wrote:
I've recently made a switch from zerg to protoss. I tend to know the zerg openings quite well but I want some feedback on my early-game build to each opener a zerg does. I tend to be really active with scouting throughout early to mid game (since I formerly played zerg). What I am lacking is the optimized response to what I scout.
If I see gas-pool : 3 gate expo
If i see hatch first : 4 gate
If I see pool first : I keep a scout near their base to see if their folllow up is a hatch or roach opener. If roach, I will stay on the defensive and sit on 3 gates.
Usually, my follow up after the early stage of the game will be reactionary as well.
I tend to make halluc phoenix to scout the zerg and see if their lair is early (greedily teching) or standard. If Z is riskly teching, I will 5/6 gate push. If they commit to heavily mutas, I will transition to stargate phoenix while staying on the defensive with sentry/stalker.If they go infestor, I will HT. Hydra/roach double evo builds are rare on the KR/TW server so I least expect it coming. But if it does, I will tech to robo.
For the maps that have a natural ramp, I most likely always FFE -> 1 stargate (3 VR harras) -> +1 Blink timing.
I always take my 3rd while I move out with my mid-game push.
I would also like to know as a Protoss, which maps should I veto?
Also, how is the current PvP metagame? Is it still 4 gating here and there?
Are there any gas timings for protoss? Or do I just get double gas everytime my nexus warps in. Since P seems like they are constantly starved out on gas. Contrary to popular belief, 4 gate is actually worse vs hatch first than vs gas pool. Gas pool allows the zerg for a better read and perhaps on the off chance, a pylon deny, but hatch first gives more units and a better econ to support the 4 gate defense. I have a follow up question to that statement. Do you ever descide to throw your gameplan away and go for a 4 gate vs T or Z after scouting a weakness you can abuse (say early second gas from Z or gasless expand from T)? I've tried this out once during a weak or so to just 4 gate once I scout something I might be able to abuse but I really never managed to understand what to look for. It felt like it all came down to how well i executed my build and how well he reacted to it. Therefor I never 4 gate all in against Z or T anymore.
If a zerg player goes for hatch first, and you double-block it (pylon, then come back and drop a cy core next to it), AND he doesn't start an extractor along with his pool in response to it, then you can 4-gate him because its basically an auto-win for you.
If a terran player goes for 1 rax gasless FE and doesn't throw down more than one bunker at the natural entrance and you can get a proxy pylon down, then you can throw another gate onto your 3 gate expo, cancel the nexus, and go win with a bunch of zealots, a couple stalkers, and a few well placed forcefields to deny bunker repair.
Both these scenarios require you to scout to confirm, and hinge on your opponent making some critical mistakes - I've seen them happen on replays even into the Masters level with people getting greedy, so its definitely worth checking on them, but you can't absolutely count on them. There is no default-to-4-gate scenario except PvP on Tal'darim Altar.
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On August 19 2011 09:24 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 08:28 Larias wrote:
Tips on holding roach rush after a forge FE please. Do I need a 2nd cannon?
Usually I only try Forge FE on huge maps where everyone does it - taldarim and shakuras. I've recently been trying to FFE on some of the new maps that have small chokes, but I find it difficult to hold off fast roaches. What units should I be making to defend against the roach/ling attack? You should have scouted his main before a pool finishes. If so, check if he has a gas. If he does, hide your probe somewhere and go back into his main at around 4:00. Check his gas again. Are there still drones on it? How much gas has he mined? If he's mined more than 100 gas, then you should suspect a roach or baneling allin. From there on, you need at least 2 well placed cannons. Do not hug your cannons against other buildings. Instead, place them one space behind those buildings so that roaches cannot target them. Chorno out sentries and block any holes into your base with gateways/pylons as he kills your buildings.
Just to add to this, another slightly easier thing to check on is a fast 3rd base, its the conservative response to a FFE. You should still do everything you can to get a look at his gas harvesting and army, since he can throw up a third with no drones and then all-in you anyway, but any information you get can be helpful.
Also, I thought that cannons had to be flush with the buildings or roaches could come in at an angle and safely target buildings towards the end of your wall? I haven't seen a cannon placed back one hex in a pro game ever since the patch that increased Roach range to 4.
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On August 19 2011 09:16 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:47 N1ghtshade wrote:On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I WAS using 2 gate robo in the earlier leagues, but now it dies too quickly with some great 4 gate play. And for the 4/5 rax, it's techlab/reactors with maybe 3 medivacs. Way too many Marine/marauders for me to kite or use colossus to counter. I was thinking immortals but the marine counts might destroy them. Is this 4/5 rax off 1 base or 2? You'd have to submit a replay before I can give you any specific advice, because your situation sounds very funky.
Yeah here's the most relevant replay that fits what I struggle with.
http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/18-08-11/178732-Nightshade-VS-RenWuigi.html
My macro wasn't perfect, but I believe it wasn't terrible either. I probably made a bad decision building a TC, I was going to try to use an observer and blink past the bunkers to harass, but alas I never got around to it. The FFs could have been better, but even with better FFs and upgrades, his army would still destroy me. Should I play defensively if Terran is doing this? Get chargelots, more colossi and sentries? (upgrades were very late I will admit)
Edit: just got raped by a mass stalker 4 gate, I tried 2 gate robo again but to no avail, it's worthless, timings are way off. Still no clue on how to counter 4 gate without a 4 gate myself.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 19 2011 15:02 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 09:16 4kmonk wrote:On August 19 2011 03:47 N1ghtshade wrote:On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I WAS using 2 gate robo in the earlier leagues, but now it dies too quickly with some great 4 gate play. And for the 4/5 rax, it's techlab/reactors with maybe 3 medivacs. Way too many Marine/marauders for me to kite or use colossus to counter. I was thinking immortals but the marine counts might destroy them. Is this 4/5 rax off 1 base or 2? You'd have to submit a replay before I can give you any specific advice, because your situation sounds very funky. Yeah here's the most relevant replay that fits what I struggle with. http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/18-08-11/178732-Nightshade-VS-RenWuigi.htmlMy macro wasn't perfect, but I believe it wasn't terrible either. I probably made a bad decision building a TC, I was going to try to use an observer and blink past the bunkers to harass, but alas I never got around to it. The FFs could have been better, but even with better FFs and upgrades, his army would still destroy me. Should I play defensively if Terran is doing this? Get chargelots, more colossi and sentries? (upgrades were very late I will admit) Edit: just got raped by a mass stalker 4 gate, I tried 2 gate robo again but to no avail, it's worthless, timings are way off. Still no clue on how to counter 4 gate without a 4 gate myself.
Your opening build put you way way too far behind. If you open 4 gate blink, you're pretty much allin versus a 1 rax cc terran or any other build for that matter. If you cannot kill him right away, there should be no way you can come back from that. In fact, your expansion is a full 5 minutes after his and the only reason you didn't lose immediately is that your opponent wasn't good at making scvs. Also, don't wall versus terran.
Don't go 2 gate robo and expect to hold off a 4 gate. People who suggest 2 gate robo to fend off 4 gate and don't link you to an exact build order have no idea what they're talking about. Again, I'll have a thread about this soon, but for now use the search function to find good pvp openings:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=[g] pvp
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Why is nobody helping me? Is there a format I'm missing or?
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United States8477 Posts
On August 17 2011 16:37 the p00n wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/dqWGThIf anyone could help me positioning my army and absorbing the zerg remax better it would be greatly appreciated. My 3rd kept getting denied by lings because I wasn't sure where to put my army (afraid of counters/ling runby). Also, it was silly of me to wait for him to get broodlords, I realize that, hehe, but I guess that was bad scouting on my part because I assumed he had more bases and army.
Don't put your stargate out in the open. By doing this, he can devote resources to defending just this threat instead of preparing for other threats.
Keep your voidrays/phenoix out on the map. He has no units that can both catch and kill your units, so there is no reason to sit them with your army. With those on the map, you will have vision and more information. Thus, you will be able to place your army more effectively to deny those lings that killed your 3rd.
Get +2 attack before +1 armor if you have a twilight anyways.
You move your army into his in the first big fight. If you hadn't, you could have won right away.
Use your idle robos to at least make immortal vs roach hydra if you're not going to make collosi.
Don't understand the archon chargelot switch vs roach hydra bl.
If you don't have to engage bls directly, don't. Instead, coutner attack and rely on your mobility advantage.
Lots of small micro mistakes here and there.
You should have a better idea of how ahead/behind your are based on how much you've both mined and how your battles went. You seem too passive sometimes when you can finish him.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 19 2011 15:02 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 09:16 4kmonk wrote:On August 19 2011 03:47 N1ghtshade wrote:On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I WAS using 2 gate robo in the earlier leagues, but now it dies too quickly with some great 4 gate play. And for the 4/5 rax, it's techlab/reactors with maybe 3 medivacs. Way too many Marine/marauders for me to kite or use colossus to counter. I was thinking immortals but the marine counts might destroy them. Is this 4/5 rax off 1 base or 2? You'd have to submit a replay before I can give you any specific advice, because your situation sounds very funky. Yeah here's the most relevant replay that fits what I struggle with. http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/18-08-11/178732-Nightshade-VS-RenWuigi.htmlMy macro wasn't perfect, but I believe it wasn't terrible either. I probably made a bad decision building a TC, I was going to try to use an observer and blink past the bunkers to harass, but alas I never got around to it. The FFs could have been better, but even with better FFs and upgrades, his army would still destroy me. Should I play defensively if Terran is doing this? Get chargelots, more colossi and sentries? (upgrades were very late I will admit) Edit: just got raped by a mass stalker 4 gate, I tried 2 gate robo again but to no avail, it's worthless, timings are way off. Still no clue on how to counter 4 gate without a 4 gate myself.
Here, wrote a guide just for you
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256711
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On August 19 2011 17:00 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 15:02 N1ghtshade wrote:On August 19 2011 09:16 4kmonk wrote:On August 19 2011 03:47 N1ghtshade wrote:On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I WAS using 2 gate robo in the earlier leagues, but now it dies too quickly with some great 4 gate play. And for the 4/5 rax, it's techlab/reactors with maybe 3 medivacs. Way too many Marine/marauders for me to kite or use colossus to counter. I was thinking immortals but the marine counts might destroy them. Is this 4/5 rax off 1 base or 2? You'd have to submit a replay before I can give you any specific advice, because your situation sounds very funky. Yeah here's the most relevant replay that fits what I struggle with. http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/18-08-11/178732-Nightshade-VS-RenWuigi.htmlMy macro wasn't perfect, but I believe it wasn't terrible either. I probably made a bad decision building a TC, I was going to try to use an observer and blink past the bunkers to harass, but alas I never got around to it. The FFs could have been better, but even with better FFs and upgrades, his army would still destroy me. Should I play defensively if Terran is doing this? Get chargelots, more colossi and sentries? (upgrades were very late I will admit) Edit: just got raped by a mass stalker 4 gate, I tried 2 gate robo again but to no avail, it's worthless, timings are way off. Still no clue on how to counter 4 gate without a 4 gate myself. Your opening build put you way way too far behind. If you open 4 gate blink, you're pretty much allin versus a 1 rax cc terran or any other build for that matter. If you cannot kill him right away, there should be no way you can come back from that. In fact, your expansion is a full 5 minutes after his and the only reason you didn't lose immediately is that your opponent wasn't good at making scvs. Also, don't wall versus terran. Don't go 2 gate robo and expect to hold off a 4 gate. People who suggest 2 gate robo to fend off 4 gate and don't link you to an exact build order have no idea what they're talking about. Again, I'll have a thread about this soon, but for now use the search function to find good pvp openings: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=[g] pvp
I probably should have gone more conventional for my opening, I didn't know that put me so far behind. I found that 3 gate robo vT in the past can be very useful, and punishing at the same time.
I tried and failed Geiko's 3 gate for PvP, I trained a second zealot on accident -.- I almost ALMOST held it off though, I think if I get it down I can counter 4 gate's much easier.
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On August 19 2011 17:09 the p00n wrote:
Why is nobody helping me? Is there a format I'm missing or?
People generally don't like giving advice on replays where you won, especially if its general advice instead of a specific problem. Posting a loss can usually get you more help than a win.
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On August 19 2011 17:57 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 17:00 4kmonk wrote:On August 19 2011 15:02 N1ghtshade wrote:On August 19 2011 09:16 4kmonk wrote:On August 19 2011 03:47 N1ghtshade wrote:On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I WAS using 2 gate robo in the earlier leagues, but now it dies too quickly with some great 4 gate play. And for the 4/5 rax, it's techlab/reactors with maybe 3 medivacs. Way too many Marine/marauders for me to kite or use colossus to counter. I was thinking immortals but the marine counts might destroy them. Is this 4/5 rax off 1 base or 2? You'd have to submit a replay before I can give you any specific advice, because your situation sounds very funky. Yeah here's the most relevant replay that fits what I struggle with. http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/18-08-11/178732-Nightshade-VS-RenWuigi.htmlMy macro wasn't perfect, but I believe it wasn't terrible either. I probably made a bad decision building a TC, I was going to try to use an observer and blink past the bunkers to harass, but alas I never got around to it. The FFs could have been better, but even with better FFs and upgrades, his army would still destroy me. Should I play defensively if Terran is doing this? Get chargelots, more colossi and sentries? (upgrades were very late I will admit) Edit: just got raped by a mass stalker 4 gate, I tried 2 gate robo again but to no avail, it's worthless, timings are way off. Still no clue on how to counter 4 gate without a 4 gate myself. Your opening build put you way way too far behind. If you open 4 gate blink, you're pretty much allin versus a 1 rax cc terran or any other build for that matter. If you cannot kill him right away, there should be no way you can come back from that. In fact, your expansion is a full 5 minutes after his and the only reason you didn't lose immediately is that your opponent wasn't good at making scvs. Also, don't wall versus terran. Don't go 2 gate robo and expect to hold off a 4 gate. People who suggest 2 gate robo to fend off 4 gate and don't link you to an exact build order have no idea what they're talking about. Again, I'll have a thread about this soon, but for now use the search function to find good pvp openings: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=[g] pvp I probably should have gone more conventional for my opening, I didn't know that put me so far behind. I found that 3 gate robo vT in the past can be very useful, and punishing at the same time. I tried and failed Geiko's 3 gate for PvP, I trained a second zealot on accident -.- I almost ALMOST held it off though, I think if I get it down I can counter 4 gate's much easier.
Shame on you for failing a 2/10 difficulty build !
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When going against infestors+roach+ling, is it better to blink some stalkers to try to snipe some infestors, or is it better to wait for better positioning/chokes for ff's? Or neither? Lol what's the best way to deal with infestors+Roach+Ling?
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On August 19 2011 17:51 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:37 the p00n wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/dqWGThIf anyone could help me positioning my army and absorbing the zerg remax better it would be greatly appreciated. My 3rd kept getting denied by lings because I wasn't sure where to put my army (afraid of counters/ling runby). Also, it was silly of me to wait for him to get broodlords, I realize that, hehe, but I guess that was bad scouting on my part because I assumed he had more bases and army. Don't put your stargate out in the open. By doing this, he can devote resources to defending just this threat instead of preparing for other threats. Keep your voidrays/phenoix out on the map. He has no units that can both catch and kill your units, so there is no reason to sit them with your army. With those on the map, you will have vision and more information. Thus, you will be able to place your army more effectively to deny those lings that killed your 3rd. Get +2 attack before +1 armor if you have a twilight anyways. You move your army into his in the first big fight. If you hadn't, you could have won right away. Use your idle robos to at least make immortal vs roach hydra if you're not going to make collosi. Don't understand the archon chargelot switch vs roach hydra bl. If you don't have to engage bls directly, don't. Instead, coutner attack and rely on your mobility advantage. Lots of small micro mistakes here and there. You should have a better idea of how ahead/behind your are based on how much you've both mined and how your battles went. You seem too passive sometimes when you can finish him.
Thanks.
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Masters protoss here. I feel like its essential to open stargate expand when your against zerg. The voidray grants map control, and most importantly stops a lot of roach ling allins. MC pioneered this in MLG Columbus and in Korea it's very standard. Problem is you've already committed to a tech path and have invested a lot of resources. Is there any other way to safely expand against zerg WITHOUT committing to a tech path?
Forge FE expands right now are very weak ; 3 hatch before pool absolutely demolishes it.
DT openers are easily recognizable, zerg can just tell by looking your sentry count.
3 gate FE is outdated, very hard to hold off roach ling.
I don't know how to open against zerg, I'm very lost in this MU.
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On August 20 2011 03:14 lazydino wrote:
Masters protoss here. I feel like its essential to open stargate expand when your against zerg. The voidray grants map control, and most importantly stops a lot of roach ling allins. MC pioneered this in MLG Columbus and in Korea it's very standard. Problem is you've already committed to a tech path and have invested a lot of resources. Is there any other way to safely expand against zerg WITHOUT committing to a tech path?
Forge FE expands right now are very weak ; 3 hatch before pool absolutely demolishes it.
DT openers are easily recognizable, zerg can just tell by looking your sentry count.
3 gate FE is outdated, very hard to hold off roach ling.
I don't know how to open against zerg, I'm very lost in this MU.
With FFE don't show your sentries. Hide them in your base. Only show them if you need to to defend an attack.
Againt fast 3 Hatch, you need to attack multiple locations with very small groups of units. You can use 2 Zealots and a Stalker to hit the third and then run and hide, then send 2 Zealots to the Natural, then when the attention focuses to the natural you send the units back at the third. It feels to me like you have to make a lot of little attacks with hardly anything. If there's minimal defenses (two spines) on a base, then the Zerg will likely be droning expecting to stop your 2 Zealot attacks. So then hit it with 6 Zealots suddenly. You have to make intelligent movements with your early-mid game units. Fast warp prism helps a ton too. Blink to DT with a fast third also helps a ton as well (with Immortals). You can use Blink + Immortals + DT tech to do harass mid-game while your third was shortly placed before getting DT tech.
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EPT
