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On August 18 2011 07:31 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 07:19 TheAlchemist89 wrote:On August 18 2011 06:01 Geiko wrote:On August 18 2011 05:55 Anihc wrote:On August 18 2011 05:40 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 18 2011 05:32 Anihc wrote:On August 18 2011 05:20 Tekakan wrote:On August 18 2011 04:56 Anihc wrote:On August 18 2011 04:32 Tekakan wrote:On August 17 2011 16:11 Geiko wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2011 16:03 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:51 Archontas wrote:On August 17 2011 15:32 Geiko wrote:On August 17 2011 12:42 blagoonga123 wrote:
i lost to two 6 pools today. (PvZ)
How do you beat it? i was going 9 scout 13 gate each time
As soon as I scouted the zerg (it was the second base I scouted both times) I put down my forge and walled with a pylon.
But then the zerglings still had enough time to take down my gateway. I tried boosting a zealot out but the zerglings took up space it so that the zealot spawned on my side.
The second time I didn't even bother. Both times they took down my wall before my cannons could come up.
What am I supposed to do? Forge isn't the correct answer when you scout 6 pools late and oppened gateway. Depending on the map, "late" can mean 2nd or 3rd base. What you do is get another gateway (without walling) and chronoboost zealots. You pull some probes to block off your choke, microing the hurt ones back while waiting for your zealot to pop. Once you've held off the rush, 2 gate will be used to pressure your opponent to prevent him from droning, and you transition into anything for easy win. Please show me a replay of holding a 6 pool without a wall, because it would be the first time I'd ever seen it. idra vs MC on xelnaga, heres the youtube for it Thx, now I don't have to make a replay for this. You can even wait until last moment to put down the pylon, and cancel it. Or you can just wall with probes. Either way, 6 pool is pretty easy to deal with. Scouting later it the same principle, exept the zealots won't pop out as fast. What about if you open 13 Forge FFE? Can you cut probes and survive a 6 pool by completing your wall off and get a cannon up in time? Since I started using FFE as my go to build on most maps I've only been 7 pooled and unless I've done some stupid mistake like keep producing probes I've always managed to survive by walling off completly and getting a Cannon out in time before a structure falls. The reason I'm asking is because I've seen pros on streams react to a 6 pool by cutting probes for a while to get a pylon and then a cannon up by their main Nexus. Is that due to the fact that FFE can't hold off a 6 pool by walling off at the nat? Btw are there any ladder maps where you can't hold off a 7 pool by just walling off when going FFE? You can defend a 6 pool by cutting probes and completing your wall off at the natural if you scout the zerg at the second place you scout, assuming you 9 scout. This is only possible on maps like shakuras and nezarim where you can wall off with 3 buildings. You have to cannon in main if you don't scout the 6 pool in time or if the map doesn't have a natural you can easily wall off. Thank you and the other two who responded. I have another question btw. If I'm lucky enough to scout him first and he's going for a standard 14 pool can I go for a say 15 or 16 Nexus before forge? I read in Geiko thread about MC 3 VR opening that against 14 gas, 14 pool he would go for a 16 Forge but I'm greedy so I like to push to the limit if I can. :p Yes it is safe to go 15 nexus against a 14 pool on any map. You might have to pull a few probes to stall for a few seconds on some maps/close positions, but it's still worth it, and also it's timed nicely since your nexus should complete as the lings arrive so you're not wasting any mining time either. You have cannon right? Yes, I do 15 nexus 15 forge chrono 17 pylon 18 cannon. If the map is bigger or he goes gas before pool I can get away with nexus/forge at 16 or 17. To all protoss players, start doing this. Changes your PvZ life  Does anyone have a good replay of this FFE? I've always been terrible at FFE, and I could really use a good example to go off of (and this one is slightly different?) Thanks! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230Check out anihc's replay, it's the first on the OP (coLrsvp).
Thanks so much!
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I've recently made a switch from zerg to protoss. I tend to know the zerg openings quite well but I want some feedback on my early-game build to each opener a zerg does. I tend to be really active with scouting throughout early to mid game (since I formerly played zerg). What I am lacking is the optimized response to what I scout.
If I see gas-pool : 3 gate expo
If i see hatch first : 4 gate
If I see pool first : I keep a scout near their base to see if their folllow up is a hatch or roach opener. If roach, I will stay on the defensive and sit on 3 gates.
Usually, my follow up after the early stage of the game will be reactionary as well.
I tend to make halluc phoenix to scout the zerg and see if their lair is early (greedily teching) or standard. If Z is riskly teching, I will 5/6 gate push. If they commit to heavily mutas, I will transition to stargate phoenix while staying on the defensive with sentry/stalker.If they go infestor, I will HT. Hydra/roach double evo builds are rare on the KR/TW server so I least expect it coming. But if it does, I will tech to robo.
For the maps that have a natural ramp, I most likely always FFE -> 1 stargate (3 VR harras) -> +1 Blink timing.
I always take my 3rd while I move out with my mid-game push.
I would also like to know as a Protoss, which maps should I veto?
Also, how is the current PvP metagame? Is it still 4 gating here and there?
Are there any gas timings for protoss? Or do I just get double gas everytime my nexus warps in. Since P seems like they are constantly starved out on gas.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 18 2011 07:43 Poky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:46 4kmonk wrote:On August 17 2011 08:02 Poky wrote:
Hello,
I am an diamond level protoss (I play mostly vs high diamonds and master league players).
Recently, I've been having huge downswing in my wins this season (44% wins overall, !!22% win in PvP!!)
I am honestly clueless when it comes to PvP and I lose to inferior players.
I've tried so many things. I've tried Day9's/Tyler 10pylon10gate fast robo.
I've tried 3gate blink, 1 base colossus, defensive 4gate, agressive 4gate, 3gate expand..
Whatever I do, I just lose. Every time the opponent has something that seems like "the right" answer.. When I try to be agressive with 4gate they just forcefield me out until immortals and then kill me with colossi in a second.. When I try to be defensive they either get blink or wear me out by finally getting some pylon up and warp up my ramp.. When I try to be defensive they just do something like tech colossi with no units behind and then rape me with some no range colossi timings.
Everything I try I feel like I am countered in PvP.
I'm just getting really desperate, my other matchups aren't that great, but my PvT has 50% win, PvZ 65%+ win..
PvP is the only thing that is holding me down right now with 22% win..
I've lost 16 games out of last 19 mostly because I hit so many protoss players..
Can anybody tell me what could be my problem? Is there some 4gate proof build that allows protosses to macro I am missing? Or anything? I'm getting really sad purely because of this matchup..
Thank you. Check my profile for both a guide on an anti 4 gate build(high level) and a comprehensive guide on how to play the robo twilight style of pvp. The robo twilight style is currently the most popular style among high/top level players. I will also have another article coming out soon about all the different ways to stop 4 gate. Thank you very much! I've been checking that out (in build order practice, I'm too frustrated to try it on ladder) I have a question about the level required for executing these strategies. You label it as hgh/top level play, so what does that mean? I've stopped playing when masters was introduced and I was around top 1-2% on ladder, which means edge diamond at that time. Then I had 6 months pause and now I am facing mostly either diamonds or relatively low masters. I don't consider this high level. Do you think it would be more useful to try to crisp out just right 4gating or 1 base colossi, tighten it up and just flip the coin on what I will be playing PvP?
It depends on your goals for this game. The MC defensive 3 gate I would only recommend to very serious gamers who want to squeeze out every advantage they can get. It is a very unforgiving build and can take many many games to get it right.
On the other hand, I highly highly recommend the robo twilight style and my guide that explains it for all diamond+ players. You'll get dumb losses, but you'll learn how to actually play this game.
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How do i react to (or prevent?) a gas steal in pvp while doing a 3 stalker opening into blink? Seems like i fall behind in a tech race vs 3 gates and cant afford a sentry vs 4 gate. Just switched to toss so this might make no sense. Mid master level.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 18 2011 12:52 They_ wrote:
I've recently made a switch from zerg to protoss. I tend to know the zerg openings quite well but I want some feedback on my early-game build to each opener a zerg does. I tend to be really active with scouting throughout early to mid game (since I formerly played zerg). What I am lacking is the optimized response to what I scout.
If I see gas-pool : 3 gate expo
If i see hatch first : 4 gate
If I see pool first : I keep a scout near their base to see if their folllow up is a hatch or roach opener. If roach, I will stay on the defensive and sit on 3 gates.
Usually, my follow up after the early stage of the game will be reactionary as well.
I tend to make halluc phoenix to scout the zerg and see if their lair is early (greedily teching) or standard. If Z is riskly teching, I will 5/6 gate push. If they commit to heavily mutas, I will transition to stargate phoenix while staying on the defensive with sentry/stalker.If they go infestor, I will HT. Hydra/roach double evo builds are rare on the KR/TW server so I least expect it coming. But if it does, I will tech to robo.
For the maps that have a natural ramp, I most likely always FFE -> 1 stargate (3 VR harras) -> +1 Blink timing.
I always take my 3rd while I move out with my mid-game push.
I would also like to know as a Protoss, which maps should I veto?
Also, how is the current PvP metagame? Is it still 4 gating here and there?
Are there any gas timings for protoss? Or do I just get double gas everytime my nexus warps in. Since P seems like they are constantly starved out on gas.
Contrary to popular belief, 4 gate is actually worse vs hatch first than vs gas pool. Gas pool allows the zerg for a better read and perhaps on the off chance, a pylon deny, but hatch first gives more units and a better econ to support the 4 gate defense.
"Greedy" lair teching isn't exactly a sign for you to 6 gate allin. For example, some infestor or baneling drop builds are timed specifically to stop 6 gates.
The accepted transition vs muta is blink stalker into templar, not phoenix.
4 gating still exists in PvP, but there many many builds that can fend off 4 gate now.
Gas timings are very dependent on the build. Every build has different 3rd or 4th gas timings.
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On August 18 2011 14:54 uLysSeS1 wrote:
How do i react to (or prevent?) a gas steal in pvp while doing a 3 stalker opening into blink? Seems like i fall behind in a tech race vs 3 gates and cant afford a sentry vs 4 gate. Just switched to toss so this might make no sense. Mid master level.
You'll usually want to take the gas before it is stolen if going for 3 stalker rush. If he takes it really early, as you've just started your stalker for example, you can cancel the stalker and get a zealot instead to break it down. Or you can go for a 4 gate if you haven't used your CB on your stalker.
You can also go for a fake 4gate ( don't break the gas with stalkers ) and instead 3 gate expand ( hidden expand or not depending on preference ).
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On August 18 2011 14:54 uLysSeS1 wrote:
How do i react to (or prevent?) a gas steal in pvp while doing a 3 stalker opening into blink? Seems like i fall behind in a tech race vs 3 gates and cant afford a sentry vs 4 gate. Just switched to toss so this might make no sense. Mid master level.
You want to prevent this from happening. I made a youtube video on my opening that talks about this here.
Go 13 Gate to allow you to spend extra minerals (and cut a Zealot) on a Pylon + Assimilator.
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as a toss, I have a late of trouble with 2 things:
4 gate
5 rax
If I try to robo against 4 gate I simply cannot get enough immortals out to defend, and I don't have very many gate units.
And 5 rax... I panic over the amount of units he has, usually 2-3 times as many units. I don't know if collosi or immortals are the right choice for this.
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On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ...
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United States8476 Posts
On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ...
Terrible terrible advice for both.
In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses.
With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo.
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On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo.
Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate.
5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT).
However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ...
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate.
It depends on the 2gate robo build, but mostly no it's not safe (the one exception im aware of is tyler's build, day9 made a daily about it). The generally accepted, most efficent way to stop a 4gate without 4gating yourself on maps with no ramp is to drop 3 gates before you tech.
On to my question...my templar control is beyond horrible; i always get emp'd badly and/or miss feedbacks on infestors, have late/bad storms etc. What's the best way to practice it?
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On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate.
No it's not. What league are you playing in ?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ...
No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws.
Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early.
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I'm sure a lot of you have similar troubles or had them at some point against the early aggression of terran. I just played a ladder game and he just executed this with ease totally beating me in the early game.
what should I have done that I didn't?
do i really need to tech to !@#$ing colossus before i expand...?
please take a look at this short replay and help a brother out? ^^
http://drop.sc/27720
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United States8476 Posts
Your opening was actually pretty clean, much more so than your opponents'. Your first mistake was poking up the ramp and not retreating right away. You should have made the judgement that you couldn't break his ramp and be content with knowing his build and containing him. You then suicide another army up his ramp.
After losing your units, you back off to your base and make 2 forges, a robo, 2 cannons, and a gateway wall. This seems very haphazard and without direction. You should have a goal in mind and be shooting for that goal instead of dabbling in everything at once. For example, you could go for collosi or chargelot archon with 1 forge. I will tell you that early double forge has fallen out of fashion and almost no one does it these days.
Next, your unit composition seems quite random. You have mostly stalker sentry with a few zealots mixed in. If you're going for mainly gateway units in the mid game, you need mainly zealots, preferably chargelots in your army. Mass stalker will simply not be able to outdps a bio army supported by 4-6 medivacs.
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 18 2011 20:31 Click_Decision wrote:I'm sure a lot of you have similar troubles or had them at some point against the early aggression of terran. I just played a ladder game and he just executed this with ease totally beating me in the early game. what should I have done that I didn't? do i really need to tech to !@#$ing colossus before i expand...? please take a look at this short replay and help a brother out? ^^ http://drop.sc/27720
I looked at the replay, and the issues were
1) your opening was pretty bad, and you just made no units so he marched up your ramp happily. Your first 3 units are almost always zealot>stalker>sentry; if he has that many units just ff your ramp and wait until your immortal/warpgate is done; read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=204010 to learn the safest pvt opening ever, which imo is the way to open in lower leagues since none goes gassless expand anyway
2) FORCEFIELD in the final engagement your ff's do absolutely nothing. What you want to do is split his army in half, so you only fight half of it and the forward half is trapped against the zealots.
And no, 1base colossus in PvT is usually trash so don't do it.
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 18 2011 20:37 4kmonk wrote:I will tell you that early double forge has fallen out of fashion and almost no one does it these days.
Sorry for the double post, but why is that by the way? The only thing that seems threatening is the 2ghost push, and even then you should have at least 1-1 done...
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EPT
