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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
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I looked at the replay, and the issues were
1) your opening was pretty bad, and you just made no units so he marched up your ramp happily. Your first 3 units are almost always zealot>stalker>sentry; if he has that many units just ff your ramp and wait until your immortal/warpgate is done; read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=204010 to learn the safest pvt opening ever, which imo is the way to open in lower leagues since none goes gassless expand anyway
2) FORCEFIELD in the final engagement your ff's do absolutely nothing. What you want to do is split his army in half, so you only fight half of it and the forward half is trapped against the zealots.
And no, 1base colossus in PvT is usually trash so don't do it.[/QUOTE]
hey thanks for the tips and more importantly that safest build guide. much thanks <3
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United States8476 Posts
On August 18 2011 20:31 Click_Decision wrote:I'm sure a lot of you have similar troubles or had them at some point against the early aggression of terran. I just played a ladder game and he just executed this with ease totally beating me in the early game. what should I have done that I didn't? do i really need to tech to !@#$ing colossus before i expand...? please take a look at this short replay and help a brother out? ^^ http://drop.sc/27720
The above poster said a lot of what I wanted to say. I'll just add some things.
If you scout his 2 rax, you don't have to go 2 gate robo. Instead, 3 gate allows you to defend better and at the same time, puts pressure back on your opponent.
You need early game sentries. Get a ton of sentries early game, especially versus bio builds.
You forget to put guys back on gas after you pull probes to defend his attack.
You get an observer, scout his base and see 4 rax without an eng bay or factory. This will definitively tell you that a stim timing will come so you'd better prepare for it.
You should have at least either 4 gates or a collosi coming out by the time the stim attack hits.
Your gas timings could be better refined, but that's a very fine point.
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On August 18 2011 20:37 4kmonk wrote:Your opening was actually pretty clean, much more so than your opponents'. Your first mistake was poking up the ramp and not retreating right away. You should have made the judgement that you couldn't break his ramp and be content with knowing his build and containing him. You then suicide another army up his ramp. After losing your units, you back off to your base and make 2 forges, a robo, 2 cannons, and a gateway wall. This seems very haphazard and without direction. You should have a goal in mind and be shooting for that goal instead of dabbling in everything at once. For example, you could go for collosi or chargelot archon with 1 forge. I will tell you that early double forge has fallen out of fashion and almost no one does it these days. Next, your unit composition seems quite random. You have mostly stalker sentry with a few zealots mixed in. If you're going for mainly gateway units in the mid game, you need mainly zealots, preferably chargelots in your army. Mass stalker will simply not be able to outdps a bio army supported by 4-6 medivacs.
Thank you really appreciate it. I will work on it. I think i started to panic and like you said wasnt sure how i should counter.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 18 2011 20:44 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 20:37 4kmonk wrote:I will tell you that early double forge has fallen out of fashion and almost no one does it these days. Sorry for the double post, but why is that by the way? The only thing that seems threatening is the 2ghost push, and even then you should have at least 1-1 done...
In my opinion and from my experience, it is because it's too expensive to support 2 forges on 2 bases throughout the whole game. If you start upgrades early on and continue them throughout the game, your army is never actually stronger than your opponent's army unless you cut upgrades. For example, when your 1-1 finishes, your army gets a significant boost, but if you start 2/2 immediately, you dump 350/350 on upgrades in addition to cost of the twilight council required. Getting 3-3 on 2 base is also quite impossible. Instead, I recommend single forge plus twilight for charge or blink and then going 2 forge when you hit 3 base. If you do this, your army will be stronger throughout the entire mid game. In addition, because you have a stronger army mid game, you will be able to take your 3rd faster.
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On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early.
I play Masters. It's a 2 Gate Robo-> 3 Gate Robo. It generally works, though its a lot of micro.
As for the infestors, probably should have made it clear that that's when 7 minute is when I scout their 3rd hatch and then I decide to hit. By the time I get to their base ... well, =/. But instead of trying to be wrong, please offer some advice to countering infestors when the count gets rpetty high.
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On August 18 2011 21:46 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 20:44 Teoita wrote:On August 18 2011 20:37 4kmonk wrote:I will tell you that early double forge has fallen out of fashion and almost no one does it these days. Sorry for the double post, but why is that by the way? The only thing that seems threatening is the 2ghost push, and even then you should have at least 1-1 done... In my opinion and from my experience, it is because it's too expensive to support 2 forges on 2 bases throughout the whole game. If you start upgrades early on and continue them throughout the game, your army is never actually stronger than your opponent's army unless you cut upgrades. For example, when your 1-1 finishes, your army gets a significant boost, but if you start 2/2 immediately, you dump 350/350 on upgrades in addition to cost of the twilight council required. Getting 3-3 on 2 base is also quite impossible. Instead, I recommend single forge plus twilight for charge or blink and then going 2 forge when you hit 3 base. If you do this, your army will be stronger throughout the entire mid game. In addition, because you have a stronger army mid game, you will be able to take your 3rd faster.
I been thinking about this double forge problem for a while and after reading your post, thanks. ^_^ My standard play is 1GFE into double forge (mid masters), but everytime I play against my friend (high masters), he would attack like at the middle of 2/2 and just destroy my army.
That forge + extra upgrade just makes you more vulnerable huh?
Thanks
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Two PvZ questions:
In the case where I'm microing a large battle of mostly sentry/stalker/collosus against roach/infestor, do I micro it basically like I'm microing against roach/hydra but explicitly use my collosus to focus-fire infestors rather than letting them auto-attack?
Suppose I'm trying to turtle on 3 bases versus ling/infestor. I know that if I invest too heavily in units that counter lings (e.g. zealots and archons) the zerg will just throw away the cheap lings and replace them with roaches to counter my composition. So I should probably try and turtle using sentries, blink stalkers, void rays, and collosus for defense with lots of cannons until I max (right?). So is it better to split my army up evenly among my three bases to defend, or is it better to ball up in a central location and try to swing to fight off attacks with my whole army?
Finally, some practices that I think are useful: When I'm turtling I still need to show some form of aggression; my favorite method is to use one DT and one observer to run around the map killing creep tumors. Also since I have so many sentries that most of the time are sitting around doing nothing, I occasionally spawn out a hallucinated unit composition that is very different from the my real army and walk it around on the creep for a few seconds before pulling it back off creep to despawn. Hallucinate can spawn a lot of zealots for cheap and that's believable if zerg remains on ling/infestor.
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On August 18 2011 23:19 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 21:46 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 20:44 Teoita wrote:On August 18 2011 20:37 4kmonk wrote:I will tell you that early double forge has fallen out of fashion and almost no one does it these days. Sorry for the double post, but why is that by the way? The only thing that seems threatening is the 2ghost push, and even then you should have at least 1-1 done... In my opinion and from my experience, it is because it's too expensive to support 2 forges on 2 bases throughout the whole game. If you start upgrades early on and continue them throughout the game, your army is never actually stronger than your opponent's army unless you cut upgrades. For example, when your 1-1 finishes, your army gets a significant boost, but if you start 2/2 immediately, you dump 350/350 on upgrades in addition to cost of the twilight council required. Getting 3-3 on 2 base is also quite impossible. Instead, I recommend single forge plus twilight for charge or blink and then going 2 forge when you hit 3 base. If you do this, your army will be stronger throughout the entire mid game. In addition, because you have a stronger army mid game, you will be able to take your 3rd faster. I been thinking about this double forge problem for a while and after reading your post, thanks. ^_^ My standard play is 1GFE into double forge (mid masters), but everytime I play against my friend (high masters), he would attack like at the middle of 2/2 and just destroy my army. That forge + extra upgrade just makes you more vulnerable huh? Thanks
This is not always true. On some maps where it's easy to turtle, say shakura's plateau, you can keep the zealot sentry force at the front and forcefield any units trying to get up while using the stalkers to prevent any drops. With this you can delay until you have 2/2 zealot templar on 8 gateways or whatever kind of unit composition. I can't deny taking a third will be harder but you can still do crazy strong timing pushes if you don't take too much damage while teching.
Two PvZ questions:
In the case where I'm microing a large battle of mostly sentry/stalker/collosus against roach/infestor, do I micro it basically like I'm microing against roach/hydra but explicitly use my collosus to focus-fire infestors rather than letting them auto-attack?
Suppose I'm trying to turtle on 3 bases versus ling/infestor. I know that if I invest too heavily in units that counter lings (e.g. zealots and archons) the zerg will just throw away the cheap lings and replace them with roaches to counter my composition. So I should probably try and turtle using sentries, blink stalkers, void rays, and collosus for defense with lots of cannons until I max (right?). So is it better to split my army up evenly among my three bases to defend, or is it better to ball up in a central location and try to swing to fight off attacks with my whole army?
Finally, some practices that I think are useful: When I'm turtling I still need to show some form of aggression; my favorite method is to use one DT and one observer to run around the map killing creep tumors. Also since I have so many sentries that most of the time are sitting around doing nothing, I occasionally spawn out a hallucinated unit composition that is very different from the my real army and walk it around on the creep for a few seconds before pulling it back off creep to despawn. Hallucinate can spawn a lot of zealots for cheap and that's believable if zerg remains on ling/infestor.
If they are trying to use neural parasite on your colossus and you can't forcefield them away it might be a good idea to target fire them, however keep in mind when you target fire that all overkill damage will be wasted. So if you need to kill them to win the battle (you have to keep them from using neural parasite and/or fungal growth) you should do that and if you don't have to you can kill roaches to minimize the damage you army takes during the fight. This usually means you have blink stalkers or high templars to prevent eternal fungal growths, forcefields to keep them away from your colossi and enough to colossi to be safe if a few gets neural'd. Actually you don't need to have all those options available but one or maybe two would be nice.
If you manage to get your third base up vs infestor/ling you should be pretty safe as mass lings is really weak late game. What you need to do is preventing harass and him sniping your bases. As your army is a lot slower than his lings you will need to be able to defend all your bases vs counter attacks. But your army is not slower than his infestors so you don't have to worry about that as much. So what you need is usually a canon or two at your natural with a good wall in and a zealot to block for runbys. Some players even has another wall between the natural and main if they 1-3 gate expanded and blocks that wall with another zealot. A sentry at the natural can be really helpful as well. Then you can keep most of your army at your third along with some canons.
As for the unit composition I think you need to have both stalkers and zealots. If you fail to forcefield around your army or if the sentries are taken out by the infestors it's quite easy for a ling army with support of fungal growth to take out stalker/colossi armies. Ooh and skip the void rays, they don't do well vs infestors and lings at all. What you want to do is teching high templars to feedback infestors and/or storm the lings. They will be highly effective vs that composition and they do quite some damage as archons as well. I have won some games vs infestor/ling with archon/zealot timing pushes as you can kill most of his stuff before roaches are out in large enough numbers to take that army on. Another thing you have to be aware of is if he's going to drop lings in your main. If he does that you need to split your army as he's most likely going to try to take out your third while you clean up your main. This is also the reason I like to put most of my tech in my natural, it's safer there. After you defended a drop you can be damn sure he's going to do it again so leave some canons for him.
And about harassing, DTs are really good but they tend to be shut down quite hard after a while. I suggest you give blink stalkers a try as they are mobile and can get away easily to join up with your army. Proxy pylons and warp prisms for zealot harass is also really strong once the zerg gets to 3 bases or more. Try some storm drops as well  They are awesome when used correctly. And about the hallucinated armies, be careful so you don't end up with to little energy when a real battle comes. Mind games are good and all but to a certain extent.
I realize i wrote a lot of shit so here's a summary:
My PvZ is not exactly my best matchup so don't think everything I say is true.
You should get zealots vs a lot of lings but not so many that you will die to tech switches, or if your forcefields are godlike feel free to skip them.
Do not get voidrays until you scout hive as high templars are better vs infestors and lings.
When turtling on 3 bases build walls with gateways etc and canons, fill the holes with zealots and maybe a sentry to delay further while your army is moving to defend.
Anything else I might have forgotten to add from this wall of text.
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But if I don't get voidrays, how am I supposed to deal with the tech switch into infestor/ultra/broodlord? It's the natural progression from ling/infestor if he doesn't switch to roach/infestor. Unfortunately I don't think that protoss has the luxury of only countering the army that zerg has; they must also counter the army that zerg will get upon remax after a big engagement. Protoss don't get a second chance at building a high-tech army; after you lose your first one you're all the way back to gateway units because of the long build-time of high-tech units and the expense of having more than a couple of stargate and robos on 3-4 bases.
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On August 18 2011 22:08 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I play Masters. It's a 2 Gate Robo-> 3 Gate Robo. It generally works, though its a lot of micro. As for the infestors, probably should have made it clear that that's when 7 minute is when I scout their 3rd hatch and then I decide to hit. By the time I get to their base ... well, =/. But instead of trying to be wrong, please offer some advice to countering infestors when the count gets rpetty high.
Yeah I'm masters protoss too and I will second that 2 gate robo can hold a 4 gate (It's a good counter as well) but you have to execute it PERFECTLY and have perfect forcefields. If you miss 1 forcefield by a milisecond or you have slightly bad timing on the original production of buildings/units, you'll lose.
It's a good counter though because it allows you to get quick immortals which are good against fourgate because the toss will almost always get lots of stalkers, observers which allows you to see what your opponent follows it up with, and collosus which is generally good vs toss except against chargelot/archon.
In the unlikely possibility that they follow up with chargelot archon you should be able to win if you make enough zealots/collosus because if they fourgate and follow with archons/charge they won't have enough gas to hit you fast enough to kill you before you have a good number of collosus. Another more likely possiblity is they will follow with blink stalkers, in this case I like to get at least 3 immortals and lots of zealots and tech up to collosus. Perhaps even take a relatively quick expansion.
Of course PvP is largely about micro and positioning, those two factors are very often the game deciding ones.
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On August 19 2011 01:38 galivet wrote:
But if I don't get voidrays, how am I supposed to deal with the tech switch into infestor/ultra/broodlord? It's the natural progression from ling/infestor if he doesn't switch to roach/infestor. Unfortunately I don't think that protoss has the luxury of only countering the army that zerg has; they must also counter the army that zerg will get upon remax after a big engagement. Protoss don't get a second chance at building a high-tech army; after you lose your first one you're all the way back to gateway units because of the long build-time of high-tech units and the expense of having more than a couple of stargate and robos on 3-4 bases.
Void rays are good but only if you opened with stargate and already have the structure(s). (In my opinion you won't find the time or money late game to actually build up a good number of VRs before the zerg has overrun you) I think blink stalkers counter broodlord, feedback good for infestors and immortals good vs ultras. But in any and all cases good unit composition, micro and positioning are the most deciding factors of large engagements. Try to watch Liquid Hero play pvz, he's got amazing pvz because of these things I mentioned.
One strat I've been using a lot recently that is really strong if executed right is open with FE (on maps that allow it) go into 2 SG pheonix harass, 2 robo collosus and some gateways for support. The idea is to take a quick 3rd and 4th and mass up void rays and collosus and some gateway units for support (most preferably stalkers). I got this strat from watching Hero although I had heard about it for a while. It's really strong and if you can cause enough damage with pheonix early game and manage to take a 3rd/4th safetly while you mass up enough collosus/VR you will get a pretty easy win.
It's hard to execute well though, takes a lot of multi tasking and adaptation depending on how zerg reacts.
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On August 19 2011 01:38 galivet wrote:
But if I don't get voidrays, how am I supposed to deal with the tech switch into infestor/ultra/broodlord? It's the natural progression from ling/infestor if he doesn't switch to roach/infestor. Unfortunately I don't think that protoss has the luxury of only countering the army that zerg has; they must also counter the army that zerg will get upon remax after a big engagement. Protoss don't get a second chance at building a high-tech army; after you lose your first one you're all the way back to gateway units because of the long build-time of high-tech units and the expense of having more than a couple of stargate and robos on 3-4 bases.
Keep scouting for that hive tech with an observer or hallucination, then throw down 2 stargates once you see it and start pumping void rays.
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On August 19 2011 02:03 OS.Commander wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 22:08 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I play Masters. It's a 2 Gate Robo-> 3 Gate Robo. It generally works, though its a lot of micro. As for the infestors, probably should have made it clear that that's when 7 minute is when I scout their 3rd hatch and then I decide to hit. By the time I get to their base ... well, =/. But instead of trying to be wrong, please offer some advice to countering infestors when the count gets rpetty high. Yeah I'm masters protoss too and I will second that 2 gate robo can hold a 4 gate (It's a good counter as well) but you have to execute it PERFECTLY and have perfect forcefields. If you miss 1 forcefield by a milisecond or you have slightly bad timing on the original production of buildings/units, you'll lose. It's a good counter though because it allows you to get quick immortals which are good against fourgate because the toss will almost always get lots of stalkers, observers which allows you to see what your opponent follows it up with, and collosus which is generally good vs toss except against chargelot/archon. In the unlikely possibility that they follow up with chargelot archon you should be able to win if you make enough zealots/collosus because if they fourgate and follow with archons/charge they won't have enough gas to hit you fast enough to kill you before you have a good number of collosus. Another more likely possiblity is they will follow with blink stalkers, in this case I like to get at least 3 immortals and lots of zealots and tech up to collosus. Perhaps even take a relatively quick expansion. Of course PvP is largely about micro and positioning, those two factors are very often the game deciding ones.
An addition to the PvP early game is that if they 4 gate rush (chronoboost on their Nexus), the opportunity cost that they take is the fact that you can chrono on your Nexus to have a higher economy. Thus, with perfect forcefield, you can choose to bite off one, two, or three units at a time without losing your own.
In the event that they do get through, you can try and save yourself against zealots if you with awesome base arrangement. Don't count on this though ... it's just something I've seen HuK do. All I've done is just forcefield ramp nicely most of the time.
After the period of time when your composition owns their 4 gate composition, feel free to go up to them to either a) kill their army b) keep them from expanding, all while expanding yourself. At that point, you should be ahead especially if your mirror their moves.
The other question I want to ask is how do you handle PvZ "Mass Infestors". I always feel bad that I rely on Plexa's 10 or 12 gate zealot drops to kill their base because their infestors are so strong against my main army but can't focus too much on multiple locations =/. Feedback from on the map isn't also quite reliable 100%, and I can't find other ways to punish infestors=/
Edit: Except for timing attacks, which aren't guaranteed anyway.
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On August 19 2011 02:31 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 02:03 OS.Commander wrote:On August 18 2011 22:08 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I play Masters. It's a 2 Gate Robo-> 3 Gate Robo. It generally works, though its a lot of micro. As for the infestors, probably should have made it clear that that's when 7 minute is when I scout their 3rd hatch and then I decide to hit. By the time I get to their base ... well, =/. But instead of trying to be wrong, please offer some advice to countering infestors when the count gets rpetty high. Yeah I'm masters protoss too and I will second that 2 gate robo can hold a 4 gate (It's a good counter as well) but you have to execute it PERFECTLY and have perfect forcefields. If you miss 1 forcefield by a milisecond or you have slightly bad timing on the original production of buildings/units, you'll lose. It's a good counter though because it allows you to get quick immortals which are good against fourgate because the toss will almost always get lots of stalkers, observers which allows you to see what your opponent follows it up with, and collosus which is generally good vs toss except against chargelot/archon. In the unlikely possibility that they follow up with chargelot archon you should be able to win if you make enough zealots/collosus because if they fourgate and follow with archons/charge they won't have enough gas to hit you fast enough to kill you before you have a good number of collosus. Another more likely possiblity is they will follow with blink stalkers, in this case I like to get at least 3 immortals and lots of zealots and tech up to collosus. Perhaps even take a relatively quick expansion. Of course PvP is largely about micro and positioning, those two factors are very often the game deciding ones. An addition to the PvP early game is that if they 4 gate rush (chronoboost on their Nexus), the opportunity cost that they take is the fact that you can chrono on your Nexus to have a higher economy. Thus, with perfect forcefield, you can choose to bite off one, two, or three units at a time without losing your own. In the event that they do get through, you can try and save yourself against zealots if you with awesome base arrangement. Don't count on this though ... it's just something I've seen HuK do. All I've done is just forcefield ramp nicely most of the time. After the period of time when your composition owns their 4 gate composition, feel free to go up to them to either a) kill their army b) keep them from expanding, all while expanding yourself. At that point, you should be ahead especially if your mirror their moves. The other question I want to ask is how do you handle PvZ "Mass Infestors". I always feel bad that I rely on Plexa's 10 or 12 gate zealot drops to kill their base because their infestors are so strong against my main army but can't focus too much on multiple locations =/. Feedback from on the map isn't also quite reliable 100%, and I can't find other ways to punish infestors=/ Edit: Except for timing attacks, which aren't guaranteed anyway.
Yeah man I think infestors give every toss problems if the zerg knows how to use them right (abuse them). I think the best thing vs infestors is the following: Have good map awareness, keep obs stationed a bit ahead of your army at all time, try to keep control of xel naga watch towers because if the zerg catches you offgaurd and your army is bunched up, they can just chain fungal you to death combined with infested terrans. If you can see them coming in advance it gives you time to position your army, put your zealots in front of your sentry/stalker and spread your units, it also gives you time to throw out a couple of feedbacks on the full energy infestors (Feedbacks are a great thing to use vs infestors, if the infestor has high energy it just straight kills the infestor which can be an almost free kill for you but expensive for the zerg.) All of this is stuff I'm working on at the moment, and is harder to execute than talk about but I personally think the worst thing about infestors is they can lock down your army when you need to retreat so having proper positioning and map awareness is essential to prevent this or at least minimalize the damage.
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On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early.
I WAS using 2 gate robo in the earlier leagues, but now it dies too quickly with some great 4 gate play.
And for the 4/5 rax, it's techlab/reactors with maybe 3 medivacs. Way too many Marine/marauders for me to kite or use colossus to counter. I was thinking immortals but the marine counts might destroy them.
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On August 18 2011 14:58 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 12:52 They_ wrote:
I've recently made a switch from zerg to protoss. I tend to know the zerg openings quite well but I want some feedback on my early-game build to each opener a zerg does. I tend to be really active with scouting throughout early to mid game (since I formerly played zerg). What I am lacking is the optimized response to what I scout.
If I see gas-pool : 3 gate expo
If i see hatch first : 4 gate
If I see pool first : I keep a scout near their base to see if their folllow up is a hatch or roach opener. If roach, I will stay on the defensive and sit on 3 gates.
Usually, my follow up after the early stage of the game will be reactionary as well.
I tend to make halluc phoenix to scout the zerg and see if their lair is early (greedily teching) or standard. If Z is riskly teching, I will 5/6 gate push. If they commit to heavily mutas, I will transition to stargate phoenix while staying on the defensive with sentry/stalker.If they go infestor, I will HT. Hydra/roach double evo builds are rare on the KR/TW server so I least expect it coming. But if it does, I will tech to robo.
For the maps that have a natural ramp, I most likely always FFE -> 1 stargate (3 VR harras) -> +1 Blink timing.
I always take my 3rd while I move out with my mid-game push.
I would also like to know as a Protoss, which maps should I veto?
Also, how is the current PvP metagame? Is it still 4 gating here and there?
Are there any gas timings for protoss? Or do I just get double gas everytime my nexus warps in. Since P seems like they are constantly starved out on gas. Contrary to popular belief, 4 gate is actually worse vs hatch first than vs gas pool. Gas pool allows the zerg for a better read and perhaps on the off chance, a pylon deny, but hatch first gives more units and a better econ to support the 4 gate defense.
I have a follow up question to that statement. Do you ever descide to throw your gameplan away and go for a 4 gate vs T or Z after scouting a weakness you can abuse (say early second gas from Z or gasless expand from T)? I've tried this out once during a weak or so to just 4 gate once I scout something I might be able to abuse but I really never managed to understand what to look for. It felt like it all came down to how well i executed my build and how well he reacted to it. Therefor I never 4 gate all in against Z or T anymore.
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On August 17 2011 16:37 the p00n wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/dqWGThIf anyone could help me positioning my army and absorbing the zerg remax better it would be greatly appreciated. My 3rd kept getting denied by lings because I wasn't sure where to put my army (afraid of counters/ling runby). Also, it was silly of me to wait for him to get broodlords, I realize that, hehe, but I guess that was bad scouting on my part because I assumed he had more bases and army.
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Tips on holding roach rush after a forge FE please. Do I need a 2nd cannon?
Usually I only try Forge FE on huge maps where everyone does it - taldarim and shakuras. I've recently been trying to FFE on some of the new maps that have small chokes, but I find it difficult to hold off fast roaches. What units should I be making to defend against the roach/ling attack?
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On August 19 2011 08:28 Larias wrote:
Tips on holding roach rush after a forge FE please. Do I need a 2nd cannon?
Usually I only try Forge FE on huge maps where everyone does it - taldarim and shakuras. I've recently been trying to FFE on some of the new maps that have small chokes, but I find it difficult to hold off fast roaches. What units should I be making to defend against the roach/ling attack?
After completing your wall with your Core you can always send that probe out to scout his main (make sure he comes out on the right/wrong side of the wall!). Many Zergs will be droning heavily at this point so you should be able to reach his main and scout for a RW. If you can't see any Warren you should be fine.
Worst case scenario: your probe dies. Just make that second cannon since it's better to be safe then sorry. Also most of the time it's very smart to make two Sentries from your GW while you're reaserching WG-tech. FF will really help you out a lot against any Zerg all ins.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 19 2011 03:47 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 20:17 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:58 ScythedBlade wrote:On August 18 2011 19:51 4kmonk wrote:On August 18 2011 19:41 ScythedBlade wrote:
On PvP, 4 gate is easy to stop. Use a 2 gate robo build and KEEP forcefielding. As long as you reach a critical amount of immortals, you'll be fine.
As for 4 rax ... =/, Cannons + A WELL NEEDED GUARDIAN SHIELD ... Terrible terrible advice for both. In PvP there are a bunch of viable openings to defend 4 gate. The key is to learn an exact build and stick to it. Search [G] PvP for some guides on viable 4 gate defenses. With the 5 rax, do you mean naked rax without addons or 5 rax with addons? Vs naked 4 rax you need to either kite all his marines with stalkers starting from his base or mass up sentries. 4 rax with addons is not an optimal build. If you mean 3 rax with addons, then you can stop it with mass gateway units if you opened a gateway based build or 1 base collosi if you opened 2 gate robo. Nah, 2 gate robo is a nice counter to 4 gate in PvP. Remember to forcefield. That's actually what helps save you against 4 gate. 5 Rax is hard to kite with stalkers though. Especially with all the marines. Even if you pumped out "EVERYTHING" from gateways, its hard. The only thing that makes it easy is that you might get away if the rush distance is long enough, and then you can rely on gateway units. E.g., if you're at least cross distance (this is assuming that its a 1 gate Expo for PvT). However, on my question end is how do you stop PvZ infestors. Usually they pump up a good amount of zerglings, and if you hit around the 7 minute mark, they already have 2 infestors. Once they reach a critical mass of infestors, it's so hard to stop it, even with templars because they move so slow ... No, it's widely accepted that generally, 2 gate robo dies to a properly executed 4 gate and even the day9/tyler robo build as some flaws. Also, you show you naivete by suggesting that infestors can come at the 7 minute mark. The earliest infestors from a "safe" zerg build come at 9:20 and even that is extrememely early. I WAS using 2 gate robo in the earlier leagues, but now it dies too quickly with some great 4 gate play. And for the 4/5 rax, it's techlab/reactors with maybe 3 medivacs. Way too many Marine/marauders for me to kite or use colossus to counter. I was thinking immortals but the marine counts might destroy them.
Is this 4/5 rax off 1 base or 2? You'd have to submit a replay before I can give you any specific advice, because your situation sounds very funky.
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EPT
