EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 30
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
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methoD.
48 Posts
On August 21 2011 00:06 Latedi wrote: Are there any good "standard" builds after forge FE? It feels like if the zerg reacts correctly they can shut down any kind of pressure. If you expand they can go roach ling infestor and kill you. What is a normal strategy? personally I like 1gate fe into stargate, or 3 gate exe with pressure. | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
On August 21 2011 00:06 Latedi wrote: Are there any good "standard" builds after forge FE? It feels like if the zerg reacts correctly they can shut down any kind of pressure. If you expand they can go roach ling infestor and kill you. What is a normal strategy? You have to scout to see what the Zerg's reaction was after the FFE. If he's warming up a big attack, you have to identify it and react to whatever it is. Earlier in this thread 4kmonk pointed out some giveaways - which tech buildings are up, how many geysers are taken AND being actively mined from, how many larva are being turned into units beyond a few map control lings. Typical attacks seem to be Mutalisk ball and Roach-Ling-Baneling all-ins. If you hold it and don't lose probes, you're in great shape. The macro response is a fast third, and if he gets away with saturating 3 bases with drones and reaching hive-tech while you are on 2 bases, you're in serious trouble. Solid 2-base timing attacks and Starport play seem to be a good way to force units instead of drones; if he doesn't respect the threat you pose and makes drones anyway, go attack. I've blown up many third bases this way. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing 10 panic-mode Spine crawlers go down. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 21 2011 00:23 Archontas wrote: You have to scout to see what the Zerg's reaction was after the FFE. If he's warming up a big attack, you have to identify it and react to whatever it is. Earlier in this thread 4kmonk pointed out some giveaways - which tech buildings are up, how many geysers are taken AND being actively mined from, how many larva are being turned into units beyond a few map control lings. Typical attacks seem to be Mutalisk ball and Roach-Ling-Baneling all-ins. If you hold it and don't lose probes, you're in great shape. The macro response is a fast third, and if he gets away with saturating 3 bases with drones and reaching hive-tech while you are on 2 bases, you're in serious trouble. Solid 2-base timing attacks and Starport play seem to be a good way to force units instead of drones; if he doesn't respect the threat you pose and makes drones anyway, go attack. I've blown up many third bases this way. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing 10 panic-mode Spine crawlers go down. What I'm getting at is how do you pressure a three base zerg. For example: most zergs automatically gets spores and spines so DTs doesn't work. Three spores at the third and 1-2 at the main/natural with queens makes them immune to air. While if you choose to attack with some kind of timing attack, the zerg can still defend with whatever units, they just gotta make enough. And if they scouted your base they will have an even easier time dealing with whatever attack is coming. This will either kill the protoss if he choses to attack or he will be vulnerable as he takes a third with an army which is soon going to be weaker than the zerg's own army. Question: What kind of 2 base timing attack vs a 3 base zerg allows you to retreat and safely taking a third while reacting to the zerg player's tech? | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 21 2011 01:55 Mitchlew wrote: Question: after opening 3 gate hallucination expo what are the key things you should be looking for with the hullicinated pheniox and what is the best way to react to those things. Incoming attack -> get defense Lair -> scout again to see if it is mutas or infestors A quick third -> get one yourself or do a nice timing attack 2 base, getting an army -> do the same and expand a bit later | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 21 2011 01:55 Mitchlew wrote: Question: after opening 3 gate hallucination expo what are the key things you should be looking for with the hullicinated pheniox and what is the best way to react to those things. Third base, what tier 2 tech (if any). 3rd base: If you placed your Robo at the correct time, you should be able to get an observer to the third just as it finished. You should be able to kill it with units from your 3 Gates, assuming you were always warping things in without idle time. I like to do this all the while taking my own third. 2 base play: take a later third, and get a lot of stuff. Immortals vs Roaches, and I like to go to DT tech vs Hydras (for harass/archons/dt in my army). Ling Baneling: You'll either need a lot of Sentries early/midgame to move around the map, or wait for Archons. I like fast Blink/DT against early Ling/Baneling, with as fast of a Third as I can manage. | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
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MuffinFTW
United States235 Posts
Here's the replay: http://replayfu.com/r/NsRVZc | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
On August 21 2011 00:33 Latedi wrote: What I'm getting at is how do you pressure a three base zerg. For example: most zergs automatically gets spores and spines so DTs doesn't work. Three spores at the third and 1-2 at the main/natural with queens makes them immune to air. While if you choose to attack with some kind of timing attack, the zerg can still defend with whatever units, they just gotta make enough. And if they scouted your base they will have an even easier time dealing with whatever attack is coming. This will either kill the protoss if he choses to attack or he will be vulnerable as he takes a third with an army which is soon going to be weaker than the zerg's own army. Question: What kind of 2 base timing attack vs a 3 base zerg allows you to retreat and safely taking a third while reacting to the zerg player's tech? If you figure out a 2 base timing that is guaranteed success against Zerg who properly scouts and prepares for it, let me know. Your question is basically "how do I win against Zerg every time", waaaaay too open-ended. As far as I know, there is no ultimate timing attack that is guaranteed to be successful. Its all about forcing him to make units to respond to you instead of drones while you take a third, and shutting him down if he makes the drones anyway. MC-style Stargate play works on the same principle, force the Zerg to do something to shut down Phoenix/Void Ray harass and get back map control. | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
On August 21 2011 04:42 MuffinFTW wrote: So I've been having trouble in PvP against Colossi. I'm way ahead against this Protoss, 4 base to 3, with my army value slightly higher. But, I just outright lost because he had 3 Colossi + Stalkers, and maybe because I didn't engage very well... Can anybody tell me how I can own Colossi? Am I suppose to get voidrays/immortals? I had 2 Voidsrays with +1 (not sure if it's finished or not during the battle) and I suppose thats another reason why I lost, because of my low Voidray count. Here's the replay: http://replayfu.com/r/NsRVZc I'm not sure what you expect anyone to tell you about your engagement - he had 4 Colossi, not 3, against a lot of Zealots. And a bunch of Stalkers against your 2 Void Rays. There was only one way that was gonna end. Pushing Phoenix in a PvP where he's already shown you his Stalkers was kind of silly too, you had a chance at cancelling the Stargate. Usually you don't make Immortals if he's pushing Collosi tech. Your opponent is likely to have made a bunch of Zealots, and Collosi with range upgrade can micro against Immortals. In this particular situation, where he made a huge no-Blink Stalker army and no zealots, it would have been good, but that's the exception, not the rule. Scout and see. Void Rays are useful in the long game, but against Collosi, you play aggressive Blink stalkers or get Collosi of your own. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 21 2011 08:05 Archontas wrote: If you figure out a 2 base timing that is guaranteed success against Zerg who properly scouts and prepares for it, let me know. Your question is basically "how do I win against Zerg every time", waaaaay too open-ended. As far as I know, there is no ultimate timing attack that is guaranteed to be successful. Its all about forcing him to make units to respond to you instead of drones while you take a third, and shutting him down if he makes the drones anyway. MC-style Stargate play works on the same principle, force the Zerg to do something to shut down Phoenix/Void Ray harass and get back map control. The problem with builds which are forcing zerg to make stuff except drones is that they are very all in and you are behind if you don't force enough. Even so if you do maybe a 6gate blink with +1 or something like that the zerg will have had plenty of time to drone while you were going for a timing. Maybe the problem is more of "how do you apply constant pressure?" Also this: Question: What kind of 2 base timing attack vs a 3 base zerg allows you to retreat and safely taking a third while reacting to the zerg player's tech? I have been trying most kinds of harass and timings now but I always feel like I get shut down, either losing me the game or letting the zerg drone even more. | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
On August 21 2011 19:44 Latedi wrote: Maybe the problem is more of "how do you apply constant pressure?" Still open-ended, but a way better question. I think a lot of people just get a sense from their experience - they look at the situation and say "I have to play defensive here" or "I need to pose a threat" or "I need to go out and attack and make something happen, or this game is as good as lost" Just like Zergs tend to lose when they overdrone and they build that sense as they play, Protoss tends to lose because they jump out and get overaggressive. Even Huk or MC have losses that look stupid from the eagle-eye observer view - game sense isn't infallible. I think most of the time when a Protoss player feels like they haven't applied enough pressure, its because rather than threatening an attack, they really needed to go attack and do some damage, then retreat before it becomes all-in. For some reason, people seem to think solid macro play means "sit in your base till 200/200". That's a pretty good way to lose to every Zerg that doesn't all-in you. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 21 2011 20:05 Archontas wrote: Still open-ended, but a way better question. I think a lot of people just get a sense from their experience - they look at the situation and say "I have to play defensive here" or "I need to pose a threat" or "I need to go out and attack and make something happen, or this game is as good as lost" Just like Zergs tend to lose when they overdrone and they build that sense as they play, Protoss tends to lose because they jump out and get overaggressive. Even Huk or MC have losses that look stupid from the eagle-eye observer view - game sense isn't infallible. I think most of the time when a Protoss player feels like they haven't applied enough pressure, its because rather than threatening an attack, they really needed to go attack and do some damage, then retreat before it becomes all-in. For some reason, people seem to think solid macro play means "sit in your base till 200/200". That's a pretty good way to lose to every Zerg that doesn't all-in you. Haha sorry I'm not very good at writing what I think. Yes many zergs have learnt to almost ignore units that are not going aggressive for real ie. they only kill creep tumours and an overlord or so. This is problematic as a protoss player because when you attack you are pretty much all-in from my experience. If you retreat to your third 5 seconds to late you may be caught by roaches, speedlings or infestors. And about dealing damage, do you mean force units instead of drones? Because it's hard to get past a bunch of spine crawlers. | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
On August 21 2011 20:17 Latedi wrote: Haha sorry I'm not very good at writing what I think. Yes many zergs have learnt to almost ignore units that are not going aggressive for real ie. they only kill creep tumours and an overlord or so. This is problematic as a protoss player because when you attack you are pretty much all-in from my experience. If you retreat to your third 5 seconds to late you may be caught by roaches, speedlings or infestors. And about dealing damage, do you mean force units instead of drones? Because it's hard to get past a bunch of spine crawlers. No one can give you general advice to specific situations like this. Look at your replay and see what you could have done differently, and if you can't see anything, post the replay and ask.  | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 21 2011 20:30 Archontas wrote: No one can give you general advice to specific situations like this. Look at your replay and see what you could have done differently, and if you can't see anything, post the replay and ask. Yeah I should analyze my replays more I'm too much of a slacker. The problem is most of my replays are different as I am clueless. I do different things every game and they generally don't work at all. The best thing I have done so far is a colossus drop while taking my third. | ||
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FruitsPunchSamurai
United Kingdom87 Posts
What is a good standard PvT opener? Is this still a viable opening? What should I be aiming to get or achieve during midgame (depending on what I see)? Sorry if these questions are a bit vague and thanks in advance. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 21 2011 21:44 ThatGuy101 wrote: Been playing PvT without a proper BO so I thought it was time to learn one. What is a good standard PvT opener? Is this still a viable opening? What should I be aiming to get or achieve during midgame (depending on what I see)? Sorry if these questions are a bit vague and thanks in advance. I suggest you go for a faster expansion as many terrans expand more now, but it's fine vs 2rax for example. What you should do during the mid game depends on your strategy. You might go all in and try to kill him, maybe you want to tech colossus safely or take a quick third. These are all different goals which requires different builds. Depending on what you see, you want to defend all-ins, punish greedy play or be even greedier yourself. If it's standard play you can do pretty much what you want (play greedy, all-in etc. Not teching HTs and mothership). Yeah, the questions are very vague and I can't cover the whole PvT midgame. | ||
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FruitsPunchSamurai
United Kingdom87 Posts
One thing about midgame I would like to know is which situations would prefer Colossi or HT. I don't particularly like going for Colossi but I know they are better in some situations. I can't seem to find many recent threads about the current state of PvT midgame (most PvT threads are devoted to defending the 1-1-1 all ins). Also, when is it good to get your assimilators up while using FFE in PvZ? | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On August 21 2011 22:29 ThatGuy101 wrote: Thanks for the reply. Is the HuK 20 Food expand good at the moment? One thing about midgame I would like to know is which situations would prefer Colossi or HT. I don't particularly like going for Colossi but I know they are better in some situations. I can't seem to find many recent threads about the current state of PvT midgame (most PvT threads are devoted to defending the 1-1-1 all ins). Also, when is it good to get your assimilators up while using FFE in PvZ? No problem, HuK's 20 food expand is good but watch out for bunkers and marine scv all in. Both colossi and HT are fine, it depends on your playstyle mostly. But for example if your opponent is going ghost you can get colossi to force him to get a starport, and a smaller army since his tech is spread out. I like to get HTs with storm on 2 base and then get 2-3 robos on 3-4 bases and begin pumping colossus as a late game tech switch. The problem with HT tech is that it requires more micro than colossus but if done right you can kill the terran army easily. In PvZ after a forge FE it depends on how much you want to tech. If you do MC's fast stargate you get 2 assimilators after the gateway but if you want to do a 6gate push you only need one for a while. I usually add the third and fourth assimilator when I feel safe and want to tech more. This usually means getting +2, blink, colossi or something else that is very gas heavy. | ||
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