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You use sentries to enhance your defender's advantage by delaying the bulk of the attacking army until you can overpower the push.
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm not sure what you mean by "equally effective". It requires some micro (FF) and it requires paying attention to your army in your natural. Zergs also need to micro to hold a push (transfuse, relocating crawlers, army micro). Terrans, too: SVC they have to bring up SCVs to repair their bunkers and they have to use stim. Any natural that is hard to cover via FF is also hard to cover with bunkers and spine crawlers.
"Equally effective" sounds like a balance whine to me, and you'll progress a lot faster by learning to work with the tools blizzard gave you than by trying to convince them to change the game.
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United States62 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:52 galivet wrote:You use sentries to enhance your defender's advantage by delaying the bulk of the attacking army until you can overpower the push. + Show Spoiler +
I'm not sure what you mean by "equally effective". It requires some micro (FF) and it requires paying attention to your army in your natural. Zergs also need to micro to hold a push (transfuse, relocating crawlers, army micro). Terrans, too: SVC they have to bring up SCVs to repair their bunkers and they have to use stim. Any natural that is hard to cover via FF is also hard to cover with bunkers and spine crawlers.
"Equally effective" sounds like a balance whine to me, and you'll progress a lot faster by learning to work with the tools blizzard gave you than by trying to convince them to change the game.
It is a whine, u got me. but still, force fields isnt a really solution, its a very short term solution and a mis-micro can cost me the game. Ive said this before, it shouldnt be a requirement for a protoss player to lay perfect FF's in every situation to make up for a army/timing disadvantage, it should be a supplemental b/c not eveyone can react that quickly with precision. esp at diamond/mid master level. somtimes i get off great ff's sometimes i dont. the times i dont i come out behind in a big way.
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United States62 Posts
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What can you do about a zerg who uses his scouting drone to start a hatch in your base at the timing when he would typically expand in his natural, and then follows that up with all-in lings?
I was walling off at my ramp but hadn't even gotten my bouncer-zealot when the hatch started. I completed my wall-of with a pylon and put my first zealot and two probes to attack the hatch. I continued building probes and dropped a second gateway and started a second zealot. I cut gas after 50 and started WG research.
Then the lings showed up and began attacking my core, gateway, and wall pylon in equal measures -- clearly he was going to try and wear my wall-off down such that he could kill all three buildings at about the same time. He also canceled the hatch because it was about to finish but I had gotten it deep into the red. Unfortunately I had no chance of catching his drone with just probes and zealots.
With the hatch canceled, I used my two zealots and a few probes to kill my pylon block-off, then engaged the lings while trying to avoid getting my zealots surrounded. My zealots fought cost-efficiently but eventually died (to be replaced by newly-made zealots I kept pumping from my gateways)
The zerg then began building a hatch in my base again with the same drone and more lings showed up. Eventually he was able to kill my ramp wall-off and I was overwhelmed by lings; I just couldn't produce enough zealots to match his pressure.
So what's the right response? Drop a forge when he starts a hatch in my base and get cannons? Stay on gas and get sentries? Someone must have seen this kind of play before.
I would also accept: "If you keep your cool and micro and macro properly you'll hold this push doing just the kind of things you described yourself doing."
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Hey!
Started recently with sc, focussing hard on my macro right now as I should be.
Anyways my question: As a starting protoss player, which should be the goto build(s) I should learn first?
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On August 12 2011 05:23 leino wrote:
Hey!
Started recently with sc, focussing hard on my macro right now as I should be.
Anyways my question: As a starting protoss player, which should be the goto build(s) I should learn first?
3 Gate Expand PvZ, HuK 20 Food FE (I have a video that would help you out a lot as a new player on youtube), PvP 4 gate!
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United States8477 Posts
On August 12 2011 05:23 leino wrote:
Hey!
Started recently with sc, focussing hard on my macro right now as I should be.
Anyways my question: As a starting protoss player, which should be the goto build(s) I should learn first?
As a beginning player, you should learn the safest builds you can. The following builds may not be the best, but they are fairly easy to execute and guarantee a mid game if you execute them well.
PvT: 2 gate robo (gate robo gate)
PvZ: 3 gate expand
PvP: Geiko's defensive 3 gate
If you learn these builds, you'll get more practice with mid/late game and actually learn the matchups. As you get more comfortable, you can experiment with more advanced builds.
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On August 12 2011 04:40 galivet wrote:
What can you do about a zerg who uses his scouting drone to start a hatch in your base at the timing when he would typically expand in his natural, and then follows that up with all-in lings?
I was walling off at my ramp but hadn't even gotten my bouncer-zealot when the hatch started. I completed my wall-of with a pylon and put my first zealot and two probes to attack the hatch. I continued building probes and dropped a second gateway and started a second zealot. I cut gas after 50 and started WG research.
Then the lings showed up and began attacking my core, gateway, and wall pylon in equal measures -- clearly he was going to try and wear my wall-off down such that he could kill all three buildings at about the same time. He also canceled the hatch because it was about to finish but I had gotten it deep into the red. Unfortunately I had no chance of catching his drone with just probes and zealots.
With the hatch canceled, I used my two zealots and a few probes to kill my pylon block-off, then engaged the lings while trying to avoid getting my zealots surrounded. My zealots fought cost-efficiently but eventually died (to be replaced by newly-made zealots I kept pumping from my gateways)
The zerg then began building a hatch in my base again with the same drone and more lings showed up. Eventually he was able to kill my ramp wall-off and I was overwhelmed by lings; I just couldn't produce enough zealots to match his pressure.
So what's the right response? Drop a forge when he starts a hatch in my base and get cannons? Stay on gas and get sentries? Someone must have seen this kind of play before.
I would also accept: "If you keep your cool and micro and macro properly you'll hold this push doing just the kind of things you described yourself doing."
I've found that continuing your walloff the best you can and getting a forge with a cannon or 2 is the best response to this, since their build is pretty all-in.
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What build should I be doing PvZ on Abyssal Caverns? I just lost after going forge FE in close positions. I had 2 cannons up with a 3rd building, I went 1-gate voidray, and he still got through with a 2 base roach rush that killed my nexus. Are close spawns still safe to forge FE, or should I just not risk it on that map?
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On August 12 2011 08:10 GomJabbar wrote:
What build should I be doing PvZ on Abyssal Caverns? I just lost after going forge FE in close positions. I had 2 cannons up with a 3rd building, I went 1-gate voidray, and he still got through with a 2 base roach rush that killed my nexus. Are close spawns still safe to forge FE, or should I just not risk it on that map?
Make more cannons.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:10 GomJabbar wrote:
What build should I be doing PvZ on Abyssal Caverns? I just lost after going forge FE in close positions. I had 2 cannons up with a 3rd building, I went 1-gate voidray, and he still got through with a 2 base roach rush that killed my nexus. Are close spawns still safe to forge FE, or should I just not risk it on that map?
Did you place your cannons 1 space behind your buildings instead of directly hugging your forge/gateway?
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On August 11 2011 02:34 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:44 bankai wrote:
This thread is a really good idea, especially seeing the amount of response!
Question - for Huk's 20 Food expand build, is it a safe build to open with on ALL ladder maps? Is it a good one to adapt as a "standard build" to learn off? My entire SC2 time has been learning the 2 gate robo opening but ppl are saying its too safe now. 2 gate robo is, in my eyes, a build that is too safe and doesn't really have the punishing potential of 1g robo into 3g robo expand or all in. I use 1g robo into 3g robo a lot in close spawns just because it's stupidly super-safe and you can flip it into an all in with a couple immortals in a heart beat. I am not really sure what 2 gate builds are good against; I'm not really into middle-of-the-road builds. I either want 1gate before expansion, which is quite passive before 7-8 mins where there is a window to poke, or 3 gates before expansion (w/o robo until after nexus), which is quite aggressive until 9 minutes where you generally have to gtfo of their natural because it's the fastest time a "standard" expo build can have medivac, with a little time to spare just in case. tyler ALWAYS did 1g robo into 3g robo every single pvt, regardless of map/positions because he was so confident that if he played very safely he could outplay anybody. However, this isn't BW and games are not decided so hardcore on mechanics anymore. You have to have some flexibility in picking greedy builds or punishing builds or safe builds and be comfortable doing all of them.
What is a proper reaction to 1 rax expand when going 3 gate robo? It used to be my go to build, but I feel like I cannot really punish fast expanding terran with it. I'm doing an EU 1 gas variation of this build with zealot, stalker, zealot, sentry, obs, expo (around 6:00) which is what White-ra used to do, but I noticed he doesn't use it any more. If I decide to go for an all-in should I tech to colossus or get 1/2 immortals and attack asap?
Another question: What is a proper reaction to zerg gas steal? If zerg manages to 14 hatch and then steals my gas it completely throws me off, especially if I was planning for DT expand or 2 gate stargate opening. If I go for fast pressure with zealot stalker I get behind on tech, if I go to kill the extractor, the zerg gets ahead in econ.
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On August 12 2011 08:36 habermas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:34 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 10 2011 11:44 bankai wrote:
This thread is a really good idea, especially seeing the amount of response!
Question - for Huk's 20 Food expand build, is it a safe build to open with on ALL ladder maps? Is it a good one to adapt as a "standard build" to learn off? My entire SC2 time has been learning the 2 gate robo opening but ppl are saying its too safe now. 2 gate robo is, in my eyes, a build that is too safe and doesn't really have the punishing potential of 1g robo into 3g robo expand or all in. I use 1g robo into 3g robo a lot in close spawns just because it's stupidly super-safe and you can flip it into an all in with a couple immortals in a heart beat. I am not really sure what 2 gate builds are good against; I'm not really into middle-of-the-road builds. I either want 1gate before expansion, which is quite passive before 7-8 mins where there is a window to poke, or 3 gates before expansion (w/o robo until after nexus), which is quite aggressive until 9 minutes where you generally have to gtfo of their natural because it's the fastest time a "standard" expo build can have medivac, with a little time to spare just in case. tyler ALWAYS did 1g robo into 3g robo every single pvt, regardless of map/positions because he was so confident that if he played very safely he could outplay anybody. However, this isn't BW and games are not decided so hardcore on mechanics anymore. You have to have some flexibility in picking greedy builds or punishing builds or safe builds and be comfortable doing all of them. What is a proper reaction to 1 rax expand when going 3 gate robo?
With 4 production facilities on one base, you better allin! If you want any chance to keep up in a macro game you'd need nothing less than a double expand.
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Hey there, im a platinum protoss, recently promoted, did really well in season 2, went from low silver to top gold. then to play in s3. However i seem to have hit a wall vs almost everybody except terrran, not to say i dont lose to terran, but generaly i either thwart their early push or get stomped because of bad positioning something like that. but vs zerg and protoss nothing i do works. vs protoss i cant even win in a 4gt vs 4 gt battle ever, i never offensivly 4 gate but i cant hold off a 4 gate even if i know its coming and i have one at the same time. I just hate 4 gates. Vs zerg, generally i get roflstomped fairly easily. If i open stargate then tech switch to collosus, even if they go mass hydra i end up only barely surviving, to later get crushed by some big ball. Before i had completley skipped collosus but after pestering of friends i started to use them again, and have fell into this slump, before i started making collosus i seemed to have a greated win pct. against all races, i would always go archon tech. But i honestly dont know whats the best advice. ive even thought of switching races just so i can have fun lol
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@CKHound;
Can't help you with PvP .. it kinda is a 4WG / 2gate rush thing atm (well over in SEA at least).
But with Zergs - the reason why they most usually roflstomp u is because of their macro (iie - they have more bases than you). Try maintaining the amount of bases they have via harass and make sure you constantly scout.
if they go mass hydra - you should try using both Hightemplar storm/Collos with FF's. Remember - Hydras off creep are insanely slow; so use that to your advantage. I think the main issue with Zerg atm is Infestors.. but with good positioning and feedbacks - it can usually be thwarted (i once pulled a fluke victory thanks to HT Feedback)
Charglot Archon is good, but instead of turning all HT into archons - utilize storm.
And make sure you keep up with the upgrades.
+3 Archons are INSANELY good against Zerg (as they're all biological units)
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Hi All, I'm a noob/crap Toss (Gold on NA) and focussing on 3 builds in all my match-ups:
2 Gate Expo vs Z
2 Gate Robo vs T
4 Gate (offensive if I can, defensive if my opponent is 4 Gating) vs P
I see above in the advise to Leino, that 2 Gate Robo vs T should be Gate Robo Gate. I go Gate Gate Robo. Are there any significant advantages, apart from earlier scouting, to getting the Robo earlier? I prefer to have a steady core of units pumping out of my 2 Gates before I put down a Robo.
Thanks in advance for any advice. Cheers.
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@aZealot
I don't think there's too much of a difference. However, a disadvantage of going Gate Robo Gate is that any marine heavy timing openings will be effective against this opening (due to later 2nd gate).
My current builds atm are:
PvT: 1 Gate sentry expand (1 gate + 2 gas off one base, building and chronoboosting sentries and expanding once hit 400 minerals) I am able to usually hold off early pressure using this build with correct micro.
PvZ: Same as above, or FFE - map dependent
PvP: 1Gate double gas sentry into 3 gate(when mins allow it), templar tech (chargelot/archon).
My PvP is risky to 4 gate with mismicro
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No, the information is the only difference- letting you know if you need to go all in, defend, or can get away with cutting many corners. But you could just perfect the MC style protoss and find out what you're opponent is up to by aggressively poking at key moments to force him to show you what he's up to, without getting a quick robo at all.
In order to go with this, you have to 9 pylon scout on 4 player maps(you have to see the timing of their gas). You can get away with 12 gateway pylon scout on xel naga.
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EPT
