EPTAlejandrisha, CecilSunkure, Anihc, sleepingdog.
Many players have improved thx to you guys. Keep that amazing work up!!
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 13
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Alejandrisha, CecilSunkure, Anihc, sleepingdog. Many players have improved thx to you guys. Keep that amazing work up!! | ||
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hobosrus
United States99 Posts
On August 10 2011 11:36 xmikeyy17x wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 10 2011 10:16 Kluey wrote: How do you break a terran contain or even a 1-1-1. The how to hold a 1-1-1 guide doesn't work if your opponent has even half decent micro. whenever you see you terran push, (via xel'naga towers) run back to your ramp and make sure you have sentries to cut his army on the ramp. make sure you have your zealots in the back so they don't get picked off. and hold off there. For PvP, What do most toss's do these days? 10 gate? 12? and what time should i be looking at for my warpgate research to finish? I dont think this is a very good idea as the tanks can get a good contain if you just wait at the ramp. for a 1/1/1 all in atleast | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26540 Posts
I'm not even meaning that we're underpowered per se, just that our stock strats seem to be really figured out by the other races and we need to innovate more to compete Great thread though, I'll pose an actual gameplay related question, apologies if it's been answered. As I progressed pretty quickly up the leagues I feel my standard openings and their successes are stagnating PvP I generally rocked with 4gate, and I had pretty much the fastest timing on it possible, but I've gotten to a level where simply executing that build faster than anybody on ladder isn't happen anymore and I'm not sure of what else to adopt as my go-to build as there seems to be a lot of options. PvT I used to open 3 gate expo but changed it to a 2 gate robo build into double forge which I quite liked. I think I'm playing too passively though and relied on having better mechanics at the lower levels, but now my opponents have caught up on that front I'm struggling to exert midgame pressure or hold all-ins PvZ Again 3 gate expo was my go-to build, but I'm disliking forfeiting the ability to really pressure the zerg much early, any suggestions? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 10 2011 11:44 bankai wrote: This thread is a really good idea, especially seeing the amount of response! Question - for Huk's 20 Food expand build, is it a safe build to open with on ALL ladder maps? Is it a good one to adapt as a "standard build" to learn off? My entire SC2 time has been learning the 2 gate robo opening but ppl are saying its too safe now. 2 gate robo is, in my eyes, a build that is too safe and doesn't really have the punishing potential of 1g robo into 3g robo expand or all in. I use 1g robo into 3g robo a lot in close spawns just because it's stupidly super-safe and you can flip it into an all in with a couple immortals in a heart beat. I am not really sure what 2 gate builds are good against; I'm not really into middle-of-the-road builds. I either want 1gate before expansion, which is quite passive before 7-8 mins where there is a window to poke, or 3 gates before expansion (w/o robo until after nexus), which is quite aggressive until 9 minutes where you generally have to gtfo of their natural because it's the fastest time a "standard" expo build can have medivac, with a little time to spare just in case. tyler ALWAYS did 1g robo into 3g robo every single pvt, regardless of map/positions because he was so confident that if he played very safely he could outplay anybody. However, this isn't BW and games are not decided so hardcore on mechanics anymore. You have to have some flexibility in picking greedy builds or punishing builds or safe builds and be comfortable doing all of them. | ||
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RTudoRR
Romania216 Posts
On August 05 2011 15:13 Darclite wrote: Hey, CecilSunkure did a guide of a proper forge FE on Xel'naga: + Show Spoiler + VERY , VERY bad thing to do lol. I strongly recommend no one do that build as it's EASILY defeatable. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 10 2011 11:36 xmikeyy17x wrote: whenever you see you terran push, (via xel'naga towers) run back to your ramp and make sure you have sentries to cut his army on the ramp. make sure you have your zealots in the back so they don't get picked off. and hold off there. For PvP, What do most toss's do these days? 10 gate? 12? and what time should i be looking at for my warpgate research to finish? 10gate isn't really done anymore. It had some applications in 2 gate builds that were 4gate punishers but people can identify them and shut them down pretty easily, not to mention it's really weak as soon as your opponent's wg finishes. PvP 12gate is standard, but some players go 13gate (ie zenexpuzzle). If you're offensively 4gating, your WG should be done at 5:40 at the ABSOLUTE LATEST. You really need to be good about getting the core down at a decent time. I've been seeing a lot of good players opt for a 16 cybercore to get it down 3-5 seconds faster though you sacrifice probe production for just a clip. With a 16 core I can get it down at about 2:38-2:39. A good timing for 17 core would be anwhere between 2:42-2:45. You get those timings by mining efficiently with rallying/worker control. The most important part is monitoring cb. If your wg is finishing and you have like 50 (or even 25) energy on your nexus, you're not doing it correctly! | ||
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Geiko
France1958 Posts
On August 11 2011 02:40 RTudoRR wrote: VERY , VERY bad thing to do lol. I strongly recommend no one do that build as it's EASILY defeatable. I don't do cecil's BO for this, but I'm fairly confident that FFE on xel naga is a reasonable build. What makes you so sure that it is a bad build ? ( I know you were dying for someone to ask that question :p ) | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 11 2011 02:40 RTudoRR wrote: VERY , VERY bad thing to do lol. I strongly recommend no one do that build as it's EASILY defeatable. Gee thanks for that informative post! I'll have you know in that replay it was in a live game against my friend, who is actually more than likely a better player than me. On August 11 2011 02:34 Alejandrisha wrote: 2 gate robo is, in my eyes, a build that is too safe and doesn't really have the punishing potential of 1g robo into 3g robo expand or all in. Yep I agree. 2 Gate Robo Obs is good, in my opinion, in lower leagues when you are still learning to play, though in Master league people will begin to realize how to take advantage of the opening's shortcomings. On August 10 2011 22:45 Belha wrote: I just wanna thanks the effort put by the protoss flagships of this strategy forum: Alejandrisha, CecilSunkure, Anihc, sleepingdog. Many players have improved thx to you guys. Keep that amazing work up!! Awe thanks, you're a sweetheart! On August 11 2011 02:22 Ubertron wrote: This isn't so much a whine but a genuine query. Is Protoss currently the weakest race? I unluckily decided to start playing this game post amulet nerf and shortly before the Warpgate nerf so I never really got to play Protoss when they were pre-buff I'm not even meaning that we're underpowered per se, just that our stock strats seem to be really figured out by the other races and we need to innovate more to compete Great thread though, I'll pose an actual gameplay related question, apologies if it's been answered. As I progressed pretty quickly up the leagues I feel my standard openings and their successes are stagnating PvP I generally rocked with 4gate, and I had pretty much the fastest timing on it possible, but I've gotten to a level where simply executing that build faster than anybody on ladder isn't happen anymore and I'm not sure of what else to adopt as my go-to build as there seems to be a lot of options. PvT I used to open 3 gate expo but changed it to a 2 gate robo build into double forge which I quite liked. I think I'm playing too passively though and relied on having better mechanics at the lower levels, but now my opponents have caught up on that front I'm struggling to exert midgame pressure or hold all-ins PvZ Again 3 gate expo was my go-to build, but I'm disliking forfeiting the ability to really pressure the zerg much early, any suggestions? I suggest 4 gating in PvP if you see the opponent playing greedily. If not try out the 3 Stalker opening into a tech of your choice. PvT, use the HuK 20 food FE. PvZ, 3 Gate Expo absolutely still works. You just have to be clever about keeping on eye on the Zerg's third, and be clever about how you harass/pressure the Zerg. You can additionally look up 1 Gate FE (MC has recent PvZ replays of this on sc2rep.com) and FFE. | ||
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various
3 Posts
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MambaPRG
United States2 Posts
Also, what is considered the best counter to the 1/1/1 all-in contain build? I haven't faced it that much so not a ton of practice against it, but I've lost everytime to it. | ||
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RTudoRR
Romania216 Posts
On August 11 2011 03:17 Geiko wrote: I don't do cecil's BO for this, but I'm fairly confident that FFE on xel naga is a reasonable build. What makes you so sure that it is a bad build ? ( I know you were dying for someone to ask that question :p ) because any decent zerg can , baneling bust it , roach all-in it etc , and then you all say ofc..."But he just covered that and said u can't! o_O" ...well i don't rlly want to make an essey now about it but for example did u guys ever think ...what would he do if roaches destroy his gateway from range and speedlings charge in after ? ^^ | ||
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delta9r9r
18 Posts
Baneling busts require tons of resources, which if the toss is doing a good job, can deny the zerg from getting. Even if wall goes down, the toss should be able to ff where the buildings were. Roach all ins- roach range = 4 cannon range = 6. With gateways blocking and/or forcefields, the toss shouldn't have a problem with roaches. MC has held off many a roach all in with forge fes Speedlings in general shouldn't be much of a problem with proper forcefields. Basically, as long as you have force fields, you should be okay. Also, you have to scout the zerg. As long as you make enough cannons, you'll be fine. P.S. Just watched HuK forge fe on his stream and he won. ^^ | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 11 2011 06:48 RTudoRR wrote: because any decent zerg can , baneling bust it , roach all-in it etc , and then you all say ofc..."But he just covered that and said u can't! o_O" ...well i don't rlly want to make an essey now about it but for example did u guys ever think ...what would he do if roaches destroy his gateway from range and speedlings charge in after ? ^^ I don't really think you have any experience with good force fields along with a good build early game. | ||
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Wyrd
United States211 Posts
I like 3 Gate and 1 Gate FE, but my transitions just feel weak. My food always seems to be lower than my opponents because I don't know how to transition safely. So to those who 1 gate FE or 3 gate, after you drop your nexus, what do you build? Or what do you prefer to do in PvT? | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
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TheResidentEvil
United States991 Posts
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chipman
United States139 Posts
You need observer in the case of quick factory in the case of cloak banshee. Or cannons. You can choose to play risky and not get detection, but if you go that route you risk just flat out losing the game to cloak banshee. Getting an observer into the terran's main to see their plan will allow you to cut probes if needed and figure out what push/harass they're planning on. Check for tech labs working, raven or banshee, etc. Doesn't really matter which detection you get. You can deal with the 1/1/1 with cboosting immortals out and zealots, or if you go for the cannon detection just mass zealot with a few stalkers and a few sentries for either build to limit marine damage(guardian) //effective forcefields and dealing with banshee. Vs 1 rax fast expand you have two options. You can do a 3 gate contain expand, or you can huk style it up and 1gate FE yourself. I'm more comfortable going with the later, specifically because there is a strange transition period where he finishes stim/concussive and starts getting medivacs out and you're stuck on gateway units without upgrades. One botched forcefield and you're finished, but still a legit response. I guess another option is going all in with 6 gate, but I'm not gonna pretend to be very practiced with that. Generally the goal is to prevent scv's from repairing hitting with a lot of sentry zealot stalker around the time the terran moves out to secure his natural (before medivacs hit), picking off repairing scv's and segmenting/focusing small portions of the terran until you out number him. Once there are medivacs I feel the necessity for charge and higher DPS units/upgrades. 2rax is kinda.. well it all comes down to the engagement. If you go 3 gate and he decides to try and push up your ramp, he basically surrenders map control and you can contain him for a good while. But if he doesn't engage or you don't kill his initial push pretty much hands down you're a good bit behind, via mules and faster expand. I prefer trying to hold this off with 1gate FE into 3 gate, using the map rush distance as an advantage. Requires perfect micro to hold off, harder to deal with if they bring scv's to bunker though. Gotta hit money timing/micro if they invest heavily. | ||
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chipman
United States139 Posts
On August 11 2011 15:01 TheResidentEvil wrote: How can I punish a 15 hatch? I tried to 4 gate it today and it went horribly. I wasnt really ready to 4 gate so it was a spur of the moment thing but it didnt pan out. Anyway to punish it? I need more information. Do you mean 15 hatch, then (14) pool? If it's taldarim or shakuras you can just pylon wall their ramp/choke to their natural with a (13)forge, followed by a cannon spaced properly to guard the pylons from lings and still be in range of the hatchery. I only suggest cannon walling on these maps because after they kill the wall off you can easily expand yourself and secure it, as obviously, you already have a forge and a choke to your natural(main). If they try to hatch first there's also the possibility that you scout him first (in time) to block the hatchery with your probe/pylon. If they get away with the hatchery and you are on a map where you can't forge fast expand(or shouldn't, rather), then you can poke at him with your initial zealot/stalker as their pool will be delayed, and specifically their zergling speed will be delayed. You can force a gaggle of normal lings/spine and the economic advantage will go to you. It's because of these reasons I don't like to hatch first when I play as zerg, ever. If I don't do the 14pool/gas build (get ling speed and pull drones from gas) expand... I'm opening 14 pool 15 hatch(slightly later ling speed if hatch gets denied, big deal). 11 overpool or 12 pool hatch builds are optional on macro maps like taldarim where you expect forge play. | ||
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chipman
United States139 Posts
On August 11 2011 14:54 quiet noise wrote: What is the optional Protoss unit composition to use against a Zerg Infestor/BL/corrutpro deathball? lolololol I'll let you know when I find out  Although I wouldn't really add corrupter into that, while they are definitely normally around as failed broodlord supply ;0 Why need anti air with neural parasite, fungal growth and infested terrans (this is why). Even if you get a mothership that can be used against you quite fast.Basically infestor broodlord is nearly unstoppable if they have the right supporting meat unit(s), unless someone masters+ would like to fill me in. | ||
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Tryxtira
Sweden572 Posts
On August 11 2011 09:55 CecilSunkure wrote: I don't really think you have any experience with good force fields along with a good build early game. This is correct and RTudoRR is completely wrong. FFs are the key to defend a FFE opening against some early all-in. However, this is no longer the problem with this opening, the problem is when the Zerg simply says, "Hokai, then. You got a second, then I'll get a third." I feel that if something will change the way the FFE works, it's definatly the trend of getting a quick third. Watch Ret in the recent Battle.net invitational. He executes this tactic of simply getting a third and droning for even longer, knowing that the Protoss can't put any real pressure for a long time. | ||
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