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On August 11 2011 14:54 quiet noise wrote:
What is the optional Protoss unit composition to use against a Zerg Infestor/BL/corrutpro deathball?
Sounds like you'd want Templar/Stalker/Voidray.
On August 11 2011 15:01 TheResidentEvil wrote:
How can I punish a 15 hatch? I tried to 4 gate it today and it went horribly. I wasnt really ready to 4 gate so it was a spur of the moment thing but it didnt pan out. Anyway to punish it?
You can try the double stalker opening.
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On August 11 2011 14:25 Wyrd wrote:
I'm having trouble against terran lately. I am just completely baffled by the matchup. I like to do either 1 Gate FE or a 3 gate aggro FE, 1 gate robo every now and then. Usually the latter works out okay, in that I'm never confused about what to do, but I feel that gets me quite far behind economy-wise because it's such a reactionary build that I have to wait for my observer in order to feel safe enough to expand/etc. So I don't particularly like using 1 gate robo.
I like 3 Gate and 1 Gate FE, but my transitions just feel weak. My food always seems to be lower than my opponents because I don't know how to transition safely. So to those who 1 gate FE or 3 gate, after you drop your nexus, what do you build?
Or what do you prefer to do in PvT?
I also tend to see this match-up as somewhat difficult. What I usually do on small maps is a 2-immortals-push. It's basically a 1gate-robo into 3 gate Robo where I attack when my observer reaches his base. My force then consisting of mainly stalkers and immortals, I use the observer to see up his high ground and burst down buildings/marauders with my 2 immortals. The build also holds well against a 3 rax-pressure and can hold against a 3raxSCV-allin. The crucial part is that you micro your Immortals to kill off the marauders asap so the stalkers can clean up the rest. This build has worked wonders for me in Platinum and I'm sure it'll work all the way up to high diamond.
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On August 11 2011 14:25 Wyrd wrote:
I'm having trouble against terran lately. I am just completely baffled by the matchup. I like to do either 1 Gate FE or a 3 gate aggro FE, 1 gate robo every now and then. Usually the latter works out okay, in that I'm never confused about what to do, but I feel that gets me quite far behind economy-wise because it's such a reactionary build that I have to wait for my observer in order to feel safe enough to expand/etc. So I don't particularly like using 1 gate robo.
I like 3 Gate and 1 Gate FE, but my transitions just feel weak. My food always seems to be lower than my opponents because I don't know how to transition safely. So to those who 1 gate FE or 3 gate, after you drop your nexus, what do you build?
Or what do you prefer to do in PvT?
I feel your pain. My PvT tends to just work sometimes well and other times just fail and I'm not always sure what to do about this. I almost always use a 1 gate expo and sometimes make it 2 gates if I'm pressured a lot. I do a dual forge +2/+2 chargelot timing attack and take my 3rd behind it. Sometimes it work well and sometimes it fails pretty bad.
I have been trying to scout better in the matchup so I can gauge how safe I can feel by comparing our armies and number and timings of expos. Sometimes I play really safe and just don't attack and am prepared for any drops well all the while chronoing out colossi and upgrades (templar as well if I have enough gas from expos). When I do this I just wait until he attacks me or until the engagement is in a favorable position for me. And also I try to harass when I play really passive as well as protoss can.
So basically I have been playing passive, actively scouting and reacting to the information while massing the usual zealot, stalker, colossi, and eventual high templar composition.
I too would like to see some ideas and advice on this.
Thanks to all the helpful protoss people in this thread!
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for the 2 gas 1 base question: i'm no pro but this works for me. always throw down a robo. the robo will help against all the pushes and give you an obs for scouting the opponents army. More than likely if he shows up at your door with blue flame or hellions in general its banshees w/ or w/o cloak and the robo protects against all of that. if its the Polt thor rush, immortals kill thors very fast and the zealots you will have should make quick work of the scv's and the stalkers and sentrys will help deal damage too. Finally against your last combos, those take a long while to get and are very very expensive; if for some reason the terran doesn't harrass and goes for those, take the liberty of getting collosus or expanding and getting collosus, lots of zealots and sentries and then you don't have to worry about the PDD. Finally since you will probably getting upgrades since you intend on winning :D cannons can stop any kind of funky play the terran can throw at you 1 cannon in a mineral line will screw up all ai that the opponent is utilizing over micro. the issue you are having is an insecurity in what you know is going to occur so when it happens you think a lot could've happened when really a lot of those builds are less than likely. use proper scouting, block your ramp with 2 stalkers in case of blue flame hellions keep your base vision full, don't do anything like artosis pylon and finally have confidence in what you think is going to happen will happen and win! keeping a terran on the backfoot means winning the game, if he isn't aggressive against you, expand and keep him on his toesm you can never really contain a terran who can drop but you can force him to keep his units at the front door minimizing drops. all of that should help you win against terran.
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Is the 10gate fast robo build by day9 and tyler (http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767) still a viable opening in pvp? If yes, what are the advantages/disadvantages of it? If not, what would be a superior robo build?
Ive been doing this for about a week now and it works pretty well for me so far, but i am not sure if its really optimal.
(Hope this wasnt already answered, i found nothing so far, amazing thread btw)
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On August 11 2011 16:51 Lowell wrote:
Is the 10gate fast robo build by day9 and tyler (http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767) still a viable opening in pvp? If yes, what are the advantages/disadvantages of it? If not, what would be a superior robo build?
Ive been doing this for about a week now and it works pretty well for me so far, but i am not sure if its really optimal.
(Hope this wasnt already answered, i found nothing so far, amazing thread btw)
Every time some one has tried this build against me, I 4 gated and crushed it... Unless on the off chance he sniped my probe at an inopportune time. I don't think it's really safe at all. It's way too transparent
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On August 11 2011 16:51 Lowell wrote:
Is the 10gate fast robo build by day9 and tyler (http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767) still a viable opening in pvp? If yes, what are the advantages/disadvantages of it? If not, what would be a superior robo build?
Ive been doing this for about a week now and it works pretty well for me so far, but i am not sure if its really optimal.
(Hope this wasnt already answered, i found nothing so far, amazing thread btw)
No opening wins against a perfectly-executed 4wg without at least a little luck (e.g. 3 stalker opening finding the pylon/probe). There is no strictly superior build that does not require you to assume that your opponent will 4wg to blind counter (e.g. the fast chrono'd zealot pushes that are showing up on the ladder now).
Blizzard failed in its task to eliminate the dominance of 4wg in PvP. Before it was "4wg is impossible to stop." Now it's "4wg is impossible to stop unless you're a Code S pro, or you get lucky, or you flip a coin and blind counter it."
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Kind of a newb question (as Protoss is only my offrace), but when do you put down Pylons and how many? I usually try to put down a new Pylon at the end of each warp in/production round, but it seems to catch up really fast. Should I just bump that up to 2/3 Pylons as the game progresses, and at what point is it necessary to build them?
On the other hand, is it just better to have them constantly producing, like as soon as one finishes, start the next?
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I've been playing with a blindish counter to the popular one-base 1-1-1 tank/banshee push addressed in QTIP's guide. I execute this if I see a wall-in and marines because right now that terran push is so popular (I see it 8/10 games; 9/10 where I don't scout a marauder).
The thing about that push is that in my experience the terran totally gives up map control until he moves out. He'll have a harassing banshee that's easy to repel with two stalkers in your main. So...all you actually need to keep in your main is your initial buildings, workers, and two stalkers (you can warp in more if you need).
You can put whatever other tech you want anywhere else on map, because the terran isn't going to come and find it. So the first advantage you can glean is concealing your tech choice.
You can also have almost all of your army (except for the two banshee-patrol stalkers) out on the map to flank his push whenever he moves out.
Also, since the push takes awhile to begin and you only need a few stalkers to defend against the initial banshee, you can tech just as rapidly as the terran. I've been opening with the protoss 1-1-1: Gate, stargate, robo. I build zealots, voidrays, and observers. I add more gateways so that I have enough zealots to match the marines. Of course teching like this would be suicide if the terran could scout it, but since he's hiding in his base, he can't.
Finally, thanks to WG I have superior mobility and superior ability to reinforce.
I'm afraid that this is only working for two reasons though:
1. I can only practice it against diamond terrans on ladder and my low-masters practice partners.
2. I know exactly what the terran is going to do on the ladder because I see this so regularly. But he can't have any clue what I'm doing.
This really just amounts to one bad player beating other bad players with all sides using stupid tricks instead of solid play. So, I'm not going to write a guide thread or anything. But if these ideas help prevent some other poor diamond toss from getting demoted, then it was worth my time to write it up here.
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On August 12 2011 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Kind of a newb question (as Protoss is only my offrace), but when do you put down Pylons and how many? I usually try to put down a new Pylon at the end of each warp in/production round, but it seems to catch up really fast. Should I just bump that up to 2/3 Pylons as the game progresses, and at what point is it necessary to build them?
On the other hand, is it just better to have them constantly producing, like as soon as one finishes, start the next?
I find that I never have to worry about getting supply blocked in PvT or PvZ because I rely on having pylons all over the map to spot incoming drops and to see my opponent's expansion timings. After the early game I have an enormous overabundance of psi. Especially against zerg, your minerals are basically worthless so you can spam pylons all over the place.
In PvP my well-rehearsed 4wg wins in less than 5 pylons. Pretty hard to mess that up.
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On August 12 2011 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Kind of a newb question (as Protoss is only my offrace), but when do you put down Pylons and how many? I usually try to put down a new Pylon at the end of each warp in/production round, but it seems to catch up really fast. Should I just bump that up to 2/3 Pylons as the game progresses, and at what point is it necessary to build them?
On the other hand, is it just better to have them constantly producing, like as soon as one finishes, start the next?
Constantly build probes, constantly spend all your money, don't get supply blocked. This is the first step you have to accomplish when learning to play! You must do this first before learning when to lay down pylons, because if you have improper build execution and/or macro, you'll be laying down pylons at a slower than normal rate, thus learning a bad habit. Almost all my students notice this once I start their lesson; they realize their macro/execution of builds sucks, and that they aren't used to producing the proper amount of units. As such, they get really supply blocked because they are so used to having inferior army count all the time.
Hope this makes sense and helps!
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On August 12 2011 00:42 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Kind of a newb question (as Protoss is only my offrace), but when do you put down Pylons and how many? I usually try to put down a new Pylon at the end of each warp in/production round, but it seems to catch up really fast. Should I just bump that up to 2/3 Pylons as the game progresses, and at what point is it necessary to build them?
On the other hand, is it just better to have them constantly producing, like as soon as one finishes, start the next? I find that I never have to worry about getting supply blocked in PvT or PvZ because I rely on having pylons all over the map to spot incoming drops and to see my opponent's expansion timings. After the early game I have an enormous overabundance of psi. Especially against zerg, your minerals are basically worthless so you can spam pylons all over the place. In PvP my well-rehearsed 4wg wins in less than 5 pylons. Pretty hard to mess that up.
Could you explain this a bit more? I feel that you'd just end up wasting a lot of minerals placing Pylons before they're needed and in places that they're not really required.
Also, how are minerals worthless PvZ? As a Zerg main, I feel that once you get a certain number of Sentries, you need more minerals to support them with high Zealot count and Stalker count, otherwise you don't do enough damage to Roach and later Roach/Infestor. Zealots and Stalkers aren't really mineral-cheap in any regard.
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On August 12 2011 01:31 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:42 galivet wrote:On August 12 2011 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Kind of a newb question (as Protoss is only my offrace), but when do you put down Pylons and how many? I usually try to put down a new Pylon at the end of each warp in/production round, but it seems to catch up really fast. Should I just bump that up to 2/3 Pylons as the game progresses, and at what point is it necessary to build them?
On the other hand, is it just better to have them constantly producing, like as soon as one finishes, start the next? I find that I never have to worry about getting supply blocked in PvT or PvZ because I rely on having pylons all over the map to spot incoming drops and to see my opponent's expansion timings. After the early game I have an enormous overabundance of psi. Especially against zerg, your minerals are basically worthless so you can spam pylons all over the place. In PvP my well-rehearsed 4wg wins in less than 5 pylons. Pretty hard to mess that up. Could you explain this a bit more? I feel that you'd just end up wasting a lot of minerals placing Pylons before they're needed and in places that they're not really required. Also, how are minerals worthless PvZ? As a Zerg main, I feel that once you get a certain number of Sentries, you need more minerals to support them with high Zealot count and Stalker count, otherwise you don't do enough damage to Roach and later Roach/Infestor. Zealots and Stalkers aren't really mineral-cheap in any regard.
Minerals are not at all worthless, just simply more expendable. When I play I try to keep a buffer of unused supply of about 5-10 supply at all times, until late game when I'm very fine with having 20~ unused supply. Once I'm maxed I'll even place many more pylons than needed for 200/200 supply army, just so that if I lose an entire base I don't lose out on production capability.
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On August 12 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Kind of a newb question (as Protoss is only my offrace), but when do you put down Pylons and how many? I usually try to put down a new Pylon at the end of each warp in/production round, but it seems to catch up really fast. Should I just bump that up to 2/3 Pylons as the game progresses, and at what point is it necessary to build them?
On the other hand, is it just better to have them constantly producing, like as soon as one finishes, start the next? Constantly build probes, constantly spend all your money, don't get supply blocked. This is the first step you have to accomplish when learning to play! You must do this first before learning when to lay down pylons, because if you have improper build execution and/or macro, you'll be laying down pylons at a slower than normal rate, thus learning a bad habit. Almost all my students notice this once I start their lesson; they realize their macro/execution of builds sucks, and that they aren't used to producing the proper amount of units. As such, they get really supply blocked because they are so used to having inferior army count all the time. Hope this makes sense and helps!
Yeah, I'm working on it >.< Especially in PvT, where I feel that I'm always behind in supply and army size relative to them, I need to keep up on my macro. It's so much different than Zerg that it's hard to make the transition when playing as Protoss 
How much do one of your lessons cost, I may be interested in having one in the near future.
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I'm a high diamond player, and I still don't know, when do zealots play their part in pvz? I'm talking more the late game, when collosus/HT deal with zerglings very easily. Are zealots a valid response to the unusual ultralisk play late game? Since usually I try to get immortals to deal with them.
In PvT zealots are huge and I practically rely on them but in PvZ I rarely find myself building more than 1 zealot for the early wall off.
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On August 12 2011 01:58 pezzaperry wrote:
I'm a high diamond player, and I still don't know, when do zealots play their part in pvz? I'm talking more the late game, when collosus/HT deal with zerglings very easily. Are zealots a valid response to the unusual ultralisk play late game? Since usually I try to get immortals to deal with them.
In PvT zealots are huge and I practically rely on them but in PvZ I rarely find myself building more than 1 zealot for the early wall off.
As Cecil noted above minerals are more expendable in PvZ. Sometimes you'll find yourself gas-starved but with a large excess of minerals. You can spend them on cannons, but sometimes it's cool to create a squad of zealots at a pylon on the map and send them to focus down the hatchery at a zerg expansion while you attack elsewhere. It can be difficult for the zerg to prevent the zealots from getting the hatch.
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On August 12 2011 02:31 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:58 pezzaperry wrote:
I'm a high diamond player, and I still don't know, when do zealots play their part in pvz? I'm talking more the late game, when collosus/HT deal with zerglings very easily. Are zealots a valid response to the unusual ultralisk play late game? Since usually I try to get immortals to deal with them.
In PvT zealots are huge and I practically rely on them but in PvZ I rarely find myself building more than 1 zealot for the early wall off. As Cecil noted above minerals are more expendable in PvZ. Sometimes you'll find yourself gas-starved but with a large excess of minerals. You can spend them on cannons, but sometimes it's cool to create a squad of zealots at a pylon on the map and send them to focus down the hatchery at a zerg expansion while you attack elsewhere. It can be difficult for the zerg to prevent the zealots from getting the hatch.
Yup. Most of the time cannons are going to be much more mineral efficient, and infinitely more pop-efficient than Zealots. However, since Zealots are mobile intelligent Zealot movements can be really good for the Protoss player. Like Galivet said, throwing 8 Zealots into the Zerg's third as you press towards the Natural is a really smart thing to do to spend excess minerals; you'll likely catch a huge portion of the Zerg's army out of position and FF trap them.
Early/Mid game is also a great time to be active with some Zealots, because you can honestly lose some and be hardly behind at all (if at all). Clearing Xel'Nagas, looking for hidden expos, harassing drones, forcing the Z to spend larva on non-drones, etc.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/174959-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
It was a PvZ in close positions and this guy started out with a roach rush. Before this game, I played against a zerg who also started with a roach rush, but GGed when he realized he couldn't break me. This guy however doesn't GG (and apparently it was the right choice as he won in the end).
What's the optimal response to a roach rush? In this game, I got a forge, put down a cannon, and just kept on forcefielding until my cannon completed. However, he planted an expo down before this and started making A LOT of spine crawlers. I was able to force even more with fake attacks.
The weird thing was that throughout the game, I felt that I didn't have enough minerals for anything and that I was behind and couldn't do anything to break him. Later on the game he pushed through my backdoor rocks while I was near his base, and I thought that I would be able to pick off the creep tumour and then save my natural really fast. However, that was a retarded idea and I was forced to all-in because he destroyed my natural.
Questions:
1. What's the optimal response to a roach rush?
2. What should I transition into?
3. How do I deal with mass spine crawlers? I think that I should have just turtled until 200/200 and attacked.
4. What do you high masters do in PvZ close positions?
Oh, and yes I played bad. I'm not used to playing a non-FE build in a non-mirror-matchup (and I hate close positions).
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On August 12 2011 02:45 iChau wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/174959-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulkIt was a PvZ in close positions and this guy started out with a roach rush. Before this game, I played against a zerg who also started with a roach rush, but GGed when he realized he couldn't break me. This guy however doesn't GG (and apparently it was the right choice as he won in the end). What's the optimal response to a roach rush? In this game, I got a forge, put down a cannon, and just kept on forcefielding until my cannon completed. However, he planted an expo down before this and started making A LOT of spine crawlers. I was able to force even more with fake attacks. The weird thing was that throughout the game, I felt that I didn't have enough minerals for anything. Later on he pushed through my backdoor rocks while I was near his base, and I thought that I would be able to pick off the creep tumour and then save my natural really fast. However, that was a retarded idea and I was forced to all-in because he destroyed my natural. Questions:1. What's the optimal response to a roach rush? 2. What should I transition into? 3. How do I deal with all these spine crawlers? I think that I should have just turtled until 200/200 and attacked. 4. What do you high masters do in PvZ close positions? Oh, and yes I played bad because I am not used to playing a non-FE build (and I hate close positions).
Well you can definitely FE on close pos... I see so many people posting up questions with replays and wish I had time to answer them all, but I just can't watch hardly any of them. Anyways, just wanted to make it clear you can FFE on close pos if you pylon + forge up your ramp, followed by a pylon on low ground. Just be sure to place your forge as the pool goes down! If you wanna know a bit more in-depth stuff about a FFE on close pos, you might want to watch this- derived from oGsMC's play.
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United States62 Posts
Need help vs terran MMM... before i ask my question i want to make a point clear from a philosophical sc2 standpoint. for zergs and terrans (and PvP) there exists a CLEAR solution for a standard pressure build (or all in) from protoss (4 gate/6gate/6gate robo, whatever). all these builds and timing attacks can be held easily with an expansion with proper defenses (spines bunkers, if held protoss will be severely behind). For protoss on the other hand, it seems like there isnt a CLEAR solution for a standard pressure build from terrrans and zergs (MMM or ling roach). These pressure builds will almost always put ur 2nd nexus down or under pressure to the point where your macro will slip because your so paranoid of a stim-snipe in ur natural or drop into the main (and its so so hard to judge how much of your army to leave where).
MMM has been prevalent since the beta and is still highly effective, my question: Is there a clear solution to counter this pressure strategy, that is equally effective as for a terran or zerg holding a 6 gate (or any other protoss standard pressure build)??
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EPT
