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On August 10 2011 01:21 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:09 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 10 2011 01:07 Ada wrote:
How do you get the best result out of a colossi vs colossi army fight, when both players have more or less the same unit composition (a mix of zealots, stalker, sentries and range colossi).
I mean when you only have medium APM, which micro tasks should I prioritise?
spread colossus and try to focusfire units with your colossi so that a lot of enemy units take damage. I haven't seen colossus vs colossus fights in a looooooong time though! Agreed. I'd actually avoid microing as much as possible, this is 1 particular scenario where I've often seen people try to overmicro and it does more harm than good. All you really need to do is make sure your colossus are firing on gateway units, and to move back damaged colossus. What's most important here is the set up. If you have time to prepare for an engagement, spread out your army before you enter the fight and if possible, even try to flank his army with gateway units.
To add: put a zealot or 2 in front of your actual clump of units to draw the inital shot(s) from the enemy colossi to avoid a little bit of front end splash damage. Also keep an eye on whether or not he's focus firing his colossi on yours. If so just pull it back to drag his colossi closer to your and his gateway units.
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Okay so I have read a lot about countering a 1,1,1 terran all-in build but still need help on it. I got demolished by it recently on the ladder and I honestly could not find something I could have done better, I forcefielded great, I made sure to guardian shield, I caught him unseiged, I did not make to many stalkers, I got out collosus in time everything, and I got rolled. To top it all off I just watch Huk get even more rolled from the same thing, actually on the same map too ;p. He didn't lose by a little, but he lost by a ton and he saw the whoooooooollllleeeee thing before it came and then watched it come to his base and take him out. I don't need to know what to do, because I have read it all from everyone saying what I need to do, I need to SEE it be done. I need a rep or some other visual aid because quite frankly, saying it isn't helping me. Also I would include my replay for the loss I had but I just saw this thread and I didnt save the rep.
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On August 10 2011 01:29 zagster11 wrote:
Okay so I have read a lot about countering a 1,1,1 terran all-in build but still need help on it. I got demolished by it recently on the ladder and I honestly could not find something I could have done better, I forcefielded great, I made sure to guardian shield, I caught him unseiged, I did not make to many stalkers, I got out collosus in time everything, and I got rolled. To top it all off I just watch Huk get even more rolled from the same thing, actually on the same map too ;p. He didn't lose by a little, but he lost by a ton and he saw the whoooooooollllleeeee thing before it came and then watched it come to his base and take him out. I don't need to know what to do, because I have read it all from everyone saying what I need to do, I need to SEE it be done. I need a rep or some other visual aid because quite frankly, saying it isn't helping me. Also I would include my replay for the loss I had but I just saw this thread and I didnt save the rep.
1. replays autosave
2. don't get colossus
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I just stumbled across cecilsenkures video of 2 stalker pressure against zerg. Does anyone have the specific build order for it because in the video he briefly explains what to do. He also explains he has another video of 3 stalker pressure. If anyone has the build order or video of this, please send the link.
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how to survive/combat/win against earily attacks in PvP such as 4 gate / or cheeeesyyy all-ins ?
zealot rushes, proxy gates.
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On August 10 2011 02:49 rezzan wrote:
how to survive/combat/win against earily attacks in PvP such as 4 gate / or cheeeesyyy all-ins ?
zealot rushes, proxy gates.
lol you just asked "how do you play pvp?"
You gotta be more specific. Or just read any of the many PvP guides out there.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 10 2011 02:49 rezzan wrote:
how to survive/combat/win against earily attacks in PvP such as 4 gate / or cheeeesyyy all-ins ?
zealot rushes, proxy gates.
Vs 4 gate, there are tons of builds that can stop them. Search [g] pvp.
Vs proxy gates, add a forge asap when you can confirm. Also, scout the usual proxy locations on each map.
Vs zealots rushes non proxy, don't skip the first zealot and chornoboost stalkers. Advance forward with stalkers to intercept your opponents' zealots and kite them.
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More of a musing than a real question, but is there such thing as a 1-1-1 build from Protoss? Like, you get your Gate/Core, then a Stargate and Robo Bay? I've seen a sort of version for it for a Zealot/Immortal/Phoenix build, but is this a possible build in any matchup?
I simply think it might open up interesting early/mid game unit comps, but I'm not sure if it's ever really been tried too much.
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On August 10 2011 00:26 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 20:39 Brainiak wrote:
plat protoss here, im dont really know how to follow up an FFE, If i play stargate 3 void 6 phoenixes my voids just get crushed my mutas. The zerg can play so greedy and tech to mutas really fast without me having an option to punish him for it. On another note. What can I do against zergs who prefer the losira/nestea style upon seeing an FFE. I hope there is one answer to both because I have to choose between stargate and 6/7 warpgate rush before my scouting zealot arrives
Thanks If you follow up a FFE with stargate, you should be harassing/scouting with your first void. Don't wait for 3 voids and 6 phoenixes. Also if you're losing to mutas when you have 6 phoenixes out you just need to work on your micro. And wtf is the losira/nestea style. I'm guessing you mean just a standard double expo macro response. I don't understand why that makes a different in you going stargate or warpgate rush, both are ways of pressuring the zerg's 3rd.
With all due respect,
You didnt see my point, the problem is, that I cant scout 2 base muta/ling and my 3 voids get killed by the mutas, thats 750 min and 450 gas wasted, also If I play Stargate and the zerg goes for 2 base tech like infestors and mutas, your screwed. How can I scout that before I need to lay down a stargate or prepare my warpgate attack?
To the point of losira/nestea style the problem is, they have so much time droning hard, they can just overwhelm me with pure army size, there has to be a solution to this I mean protoss players still win occasionally against zerg opponents.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 10 2011 03:43 Brainiak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:26 Anihc wrote:On August 09 2011 20:39 Brainiak wrote:
plat protoss here, im dont really know how to follow up an FFE, If i play stargate 3 void 6 phoenixes my voids just get crushed my mutas. The zerg can play so greedy and tech to mutas really fast without me having an option to punish him for it. On another note. What can I do against zergs who prefer the losira/nestea style upon seeing an FFE. I hope there is one answer to both because I have to choose between stargate and 6/7 warpgate rush before my scouting zealot arrives
Thanks If you follow up a FFE with stargate, you should be harassing/scouting with your first void. Don't wait for 3 voids and 6 phoenixes. Also if you're losing to mutas when you have 6 phoenixes out you just need to work on your micro. And wtf is the losira/nestea style. I'm guessing you mean just a standard double expo macro response. I don't understand why that makes a different in you going stargate or warpgate rush, both are ways of pressuring the zerg's 3rd. With all due respect, You didnt see my point, the problem is, that I cant scout 2 base muta/ling and my 3 voids get killed by the mutas, thats 750 min and 450 gas wasted, also If I play Stargate and the zerg goes for 2 base tech like infestors and mutas, your screwed. How can I scout that before I need to lay down a stargate or prepare my warpgate attack? To the point of losira/nestea style the problem is, they have so much time droning hard, they can just overwhelm me with pure army size, there has to be a solution to this I mean protoss players still win occasionally against zerg opponents.
You're addressing two very separate points.
Getting 3 voids before any phoenix and not showing them is somewhat cheesy and will just generally be weak against fast 2 base muta. The safer build is 1 voidray into phenoix. The point of this is to deny a third if the zerg has bad creep spread to it, but it generally won't do much damage against a competent zerg. However, with this build you can scout effectively and won't get screwed vs mutas.
There is no real solution to the losira/nestea style. The current metagame of pvz revolves around the protoss being ambiguous about what build he's doing and hoping the zerg responds incorrectly. For example, fake 6 gate into a 3rd base to punish overmaking of units, or stargate into mass gateways to punish a lack of anti-ground units in response to a stargate. Slowly, zergs are beginning to figure out the correct responses to everything protoss can do and this is one of the reasons protoss are currently struggling in this matchup.
Also, I believe when he's talking about nestea/losiria style, he's talking about the standard 3 hatch response to ffe with a few twists. The IM zergs go for a very slow lair and rely solely on tier 1 units to defend anything including gateway allins (lings, spines, and slow roaches) and voidrays(mass spore/queen).
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On August 10 2011 01:51 SadCowsGoMoo wrote:
I just stumbled across cecilsenkures video of 2 stalker pressure against zerg. Does anyone have the specific build order for it because in the video he briefly explains what to do. He also explains he has another video of 3 stalker pressure. If anyone has the build order or video of this, please send the link.
Not sure since I didn't see it, but 2stalker is usually
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
float minerals/gas, 2 cb stalkers when core is done
After that you gotta probe up hard though cause you cut a lot of probes to get those 2 stalkers out that fast... I actually do a variant:
9 pylon
12 gate
13 gas, THEN cb nexus
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
float minerals/gas, 2 cb stalkers when core is done
probe
warp gate, take probes off gas and put on minerals
probe
then do whatever
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United States8476 Posts
On August 10 2011 03:34 Requizen wrote:
More of a musing than a real question, but is there such thing as a 1-1-1 build from Protoss? Like, you get your Gate/Core, then a Stargate and Robo Bay? I've seen a sort of version for it for a Zealot/Immortal/Phoenix build, but is this a possible build in any matchup?
I simply think it might open up interesting early/mid game unit comps, but I'm not sure if it's ever really been tried too much.
I'll just tell you about builds that have been done in the pro-scene or are just common overall.
In pvp:
-Socke has been known for going robo into stargate for voidrays when he knows his opponent is going collosi
-Stargate into robo is a good choice versus blink stalkers, specifically robo blink builds, as you need some form of detection versus dts. However, forge is just as viable an option.
In pvt:
-There is a build that oGsMC invented which involves a quick stargate/2 gates with just 1 voidray for early pressure and then a robo at around 6:30 in case of cloaked banshee. Its goal is to punish a 1-1-1 player who has walled off with depots while still being safe. Then, you can tailor your unit composition with your 4 production facilities based on what he's getting.
-Voiday or phenoix into expo into collosi was somewhat common in the first few months of the games but it was since fallen out of fashion. As of now, with the zealot/archon buffs, zealot archon is a more common followup from stargate play, as your opponent cannot just get vikings to counter both air/collosi and this gateway focused style leaves you less vulnerable to counterattacks.
In pvz:
-The common patterns of stargate/robo include:
1 base stargate -> expo -> robo
2 base stargate -> robo
The idea is to use the stargate units to force hydra which you then counter with collosi.
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On August 10 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:47 TylerThaCreator wrote:
How do you guys deal with broodlord/infestor/corruptor lategame? Usually this composition is accompanied by roach/ling on the ground which makes it hard to just simply blink up to the broodlords. Infestors are amazing vs voidrays (clumping or not) and corruptors finish the job on the voids + deal with collosus. High templar storms are great vs the lings, but useless vs roaches. Should I just be maxing out on Immortal/HT/Voidray and spread out my army? If you're talking about a super late game army with the zerg having 10+ bl/infestor/corruptor, then really the only answer I've found is mothership/vortex. I'm being completely serious here, I have not found a way to deal with this ultimate zerg unit comp unless I'm able to vortex them and throw in my entire army (with archons), otherwise you just can't get in range to attack anything without being fungaled. Yes the mothership can be NP'ed, but both spells are the same range and you have the advantage since you can vortex slightly in front of the infestors (kinda like emp vs storm). Meanwhile, before the zerg has unlimited gas to spend on the army (i.e. when there are bl/corruptor/infestor but the numbers aren't that crazy high) any generic protoss ball with HT/archon is decent. Archons are pretty important here, they are really tanky and do a ton of splash which help clear up broodlings. Storm is actually good against all zerg units, just because you can't kill a roach with 1 storm doesn't mean it's bad. For some reason people think colossus are bad vs infestor but I disagree, yes they can be NP'ed but at that late point in the game you have many tools to kill the infestor that NPs, including blink stalkers, other colossus, voids, HT with storm/feedback, etc. The most important thing however is probably positioning and where you engage. Focus on trying to engage on relatively open ground, and spread your void rays.
I thought vortex was nerfed, is there really a point to putting archons inside the vortex? The only advantage i can think of is that the archons will be ready to do some damage whereas they might be out of position w/o a vortex.
Are you hoping that the broodlords are far enough from the vortex that you can snipe them with the miscellaneous units you have before they can slowly move into the vortex?
If you have a replay of such a sick engagement i'd love to see it.
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On August 10 2011 04:14 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:On August 08 2011 16:47 TylerThaCreator wrote:
How do you guys deal with broodlord/infestor/corruptor lategame? Usually this composition is accompanied by roach/ling on the ground which makes it hard to just simply blink up to the broodlords. Infestors are amazing vs voidrays (clumping or not) and corruptors finish the job on the voids + deal with collosus. High templar storms are great vs the lings, but useless vs roaches. Should I just be maxing out on Immortal/HT/Voidray and spread out my army? If you're talking about a super late game army with the zerg having 10+ bl/infestor/corruptor, then really the only answer I've found is mothership/vortex. I'm being completely serious here, I have not found a way to deal with this ultimate zerg unit comp unless I'm able to vortex them and throw in my entire army (with archons), otherwise you just can't get in range to attack anything without being fungaled. Yes the mothership can be NP'ed, but both spells are the same range and you have the advantage since you can vortex slightly in front of the infestors (kinda like emp vs storm). Meanwhile, before the zerg has unlimited gas to spend on the army (i.e. when there are bl/corruptor/infestor but the numbers aren't that crazy high) any generic protoss ball with HT/archon is decent. Archons are pretty important here, they are really tanky and do a ton of splash which help clear up broodlings. Storm is actually good against all zerg units, just because you can't kill a roach with 1 storm doesn't mean it's bad. For some reason people think colossus are bad vs infestor but I disagree, yes they can be NP'ed but at that late point in the game you have many tools to kill the infestor that NPs, including blink stalkers, other colossus, voids, HT with storm/feedback, etc. The most important thing however is probably positioning and where you engage. Focus on trying to engage on relatively open ground, and spread your void rays. I thought vortex was nerfed, is there really a point to putting archons inside the vortex? The only advantage i can think of is that the archons will be ready to do some damage whereas they might be out of position w/o a vortex. Are you hoping that the broodlords are far enough from the vortex that you can snipe them with the miscellaneous units you have before they can slowly move into the vortex? If you have a replay of such a sick engagement i'd love to see it.
Vortex was nerfed so archons no longer insta kill everything in the vortex, but it's still highly effectively for getting them (and your other units as well) in position to deal damage. Otherwise they get trapped by fungal and broodlings and can't get in range.
Using mothership sounds like one of those crazy unique things that only happen once in awhile but I've made it pretty much standard for my late game PvZ army. I'm not sure if I can find replays from regular ladder games of this, but see if you can find replays/vods from CSN after the clash 2 or MLG anaheim, I know I did it to CatZ on Shattered (CSN) and vs daisuki on Metal (MLG).
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I have one: How do I win anymore? ):
I'm kinda of kidding .. but seriously .. how do you win against a good Z/T anymore.
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On August 10 2011 04:59 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
I have one: How do I win anymore? ):
I'm kinda of kidding .. but seriously .. how do you win against a good Z/T anymore.
Being better.
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On August 10 2011 04:59 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
I have one: How do I win anymore? ):
I'm kinda of kidding .. but seriously .. how do you win against a good Z/T anymore.
....=_=" get better yourself...improve your ability to macro properly, improve micro/decision making....scouting is a huge one...look at minimap, don't get supply blocked, keep your money as low as possible....to be frank...your question isn't even a question....you're implyin that Z/T are op which is just pointless
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I have a question about hotkeys.
Most typically I see that pro players group their units into hotkeys by unit-type. So for example a player might have zealots, sentries, and immortals on 1, collosus and stalkers on 2, and templar on 3.
It seems like this hotkey set-up results in the balling-up of the army. In particular, templar all on the same hotkey group them up nicely for EMP.
Why do good players not put a well-mixed "squad" of units on a hotkey? For example, each hotkey 1-3 controls an identical sub-army consisting of two collosus, two templar, 5 stalkers, 8 zealots, and two sentries. Use these hotkeys for army positioning.
Then additionally put all the templar on hotkey 5 and all the sentries on hotkey 6 so that you can easily access them for spamming mass storms or mass forcefields.
Is it just to many clicks? Maybe it's easier to achieve this kind of positioning-control through box-selecting?
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On August 10 2011 05:06 Cloudshade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 04:59 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
I have one: How do I win anymore? ):
I'm kinda of kidding .. but seriously .. how do you win against a good Z/T anymore. ....=_=" get better yourself...improve your ability to macro properly, improve micro/decision making....scouting is a huge one...look at minimap, don't get supply blocked, keep your money as low as possible....to be frank...your question isn't even a question....you're implyin that Z/T are op which is just pointless
I was mostly joking, I don't even play that much anymore, I just watch Protoss' get run over constantly by every other race.
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EPT
