I'm a gold player trying to get better. I've been jumping between races trying to find which one fits, and recently I feel fairly comfortable with Terran. However, I'm having trouble figuring out when to add addons and new buildings.
I find putting down production buildings is easier with Zerg (1 hatch per base, expand when floating too many minerals) and Protoss (shoot for 2-3 Gates and 1 Robo per base when fully saturated). With Terran, I feel that you need a balance of units from every building to be competitive in the mid-to-late game, and that if you don't manage your addons correctly, you're at a disadvantage.
I feel better in the early game when I use a specific opening (2 rax expand has tech lab and reactor, tank expand needs factory with tech lab and naked rax or two), but later on when I'm on more than one or two bases, I throw down a bunch of buildings and don't know when or if I should get tech labs/reactors.
Some scenarios:
1) If I'm going Marine/Tank/Medivac vs Zerg, should I immediately get Reactors on my Starports for more Medivacs, leave them naked so I can produce uninterrupted, or get some Tech Labs in case I want to get Banshees later on?
2) TvT, I'm going Marine/Tank/Viking. Should I be getting Reactors early on on my Rax so I can outproduce his Marine count, get Tech Labs for quick Stim, or just leave them be until I expand?
3) Late game TvZ. I have a lot of bases, so I throw out a handful of Barracks. Assuming I have Stim and Shield (so I don't need a Tech Lab), do I get reactors on all of them as soon as they finish, or just produce out of them until I feel safe?
4) Going Mech. I have a few Factories focused on Hellions. Do I just produce out of them until I have enough Hellions out, or do I get Reactors right away for lots of Hellions off the bat?
I never really know when I feel safe enough to stop producing, and I don't think it's effective to "stagger" addons so I'm adding on to half my buildings while producing out of the rest. I've been trying to watch replays and VoDs, but I can't seem to get a feel of when to get Reactor on a building, and when to just get another one instead.
Don't forget that you can swap addons, so if you have a building that is not producing anything you can use it to make addons for other buildings. For example, going MMM against protoss, most terrans will use the factory to make a reactor for the starport. Or if you have a reactor on your starport and then want to get banshees, you can swap the starport with a barracks that has a tech lab.
Hmm I don't know if your questions are answered as easily as a this or that in those scenarios; it really depends on the situation. Naked production really pushes a more aggro playstyle imo but obviously without the rax or tech labs you won't be reinforcing as much or with higher tech units.
Perhaps upload a replay, if you'd like feedback on what you should have done in those exact situations, but it really is more of a personal playstyle thing I think. Try to go off a standard build and deviate from there.
all dependant on other things but if your going for somethign early or a timing plan ahead a little. example get a reactor on your barracks while your factory is making so you can switch it over asap
you can go into massive detail about this tpoic. but for someone at ur lvl i think the vest thing to do is to watch some pro reps see what they do. after three bases or so i would just continue to keep the same ratio of stuff to make it simple.
I have no issue in leaving rax as they are, as 150/0 for a rax is pretty cheap, but the 100 gas it takes to make an extra factory is pretty scary
50/50 for an extra hellion production vs. 150/100 for an extra hellion production +the option to instantly create a techlab (rather than move 3 squares and make one)
I think you should only use reactors on factories and starports. 150/0 for a new nekid rax is better than 50/50 for a reactored rax, because minerals are cheap and using nekid raxes doesn't cost you production.
Just think of it this way. When you start a reactor on a barracks, you actually lose 2 rounds of marines because you cannot build from that rax until the reactor is done. After the reactor finishes, even pumping 2x marines it will take another 50 sec to break even vs someone who constantly produced off of 1 rax. Thats 100 seconds that your opponent will be ahead of you in terms of production, and they didn't waste precious gas on an add-on.
Reactors are good on factories and starports because a reactor at 50/50 is cheaper than 150/100 for a brand new production facility. Remember you can swap, so use whatever production facility you need the least to produce the reactor.
I think reactored raxes have a place in high level play where specific timings are very important, but for newbs like us I think its a better idea to stick with nekid raxes.
People overestimate how bad the reactor time is. if you go marine->reactor->2 marines (simultaneous) then you can have 3 marines by the time the first stalker could get there anyway. This is a specific example but I think it highlights how quickly a reactor will pay for itself production wise. These days, unless I have a SPECIFIC reason not to (like trying not to die to a push that normally kills me) then I just put reactors on barracks that I want to produce marines from.
I have to disagree with RoboBob about the price of reactors as well. His reasoning is correct if you view the costs outside of the context of a game, but in the game there are other factors. If you already are getting the gas and it is available to use to make addons then you should. Gas is not ALWAYS more scarce than minerals. An example of this is when I am doing 3 rax vs Protoss. I get my gas at a standard time and I prioritize my tech lab upgrades. Once I have these (or know I will have enough gas at the time I can get them, like on tech lab finish) I use a leftover 50 gas for a reactor. This allows me to double the marine production while using my minerals for other things, like engineering bay or just on constant marauder production during that time.
Sure that 50 gas could go towards a factory and get me on my way to medivacs but that would be also 150 minerals I would need, and if I wanted to accomplish this while having the same marine production I would with adding the reactor then I would need another 150 min for another barracks.
So, to summarize, it depends on what you want to accomplish and the game state. My advice is to start simple and change when a need arises. (put reactors on until you see a reason not to, like faster teching that would be good in that case or surviving an imminent push)
Edit: Also with other cases than reactored marines it should be the same. If you need marauders make tech labs. If you need double viking/medivac then put reactors on your starports. If you want to delay the reactor so you can get one or two medivacs out right away to apply pressure then delay but there is no other reason to not get them as production quickly will catch up.
Hm, the only reason I find myself hesitant to go Reactor crazy is if I need to do a quick tech switch. For example, if I'm going Marine/Tank/Viking, I of course want to get a Reactor on my Starports and Barracks now, but if suddenly I need (for whatever reason) Ghosts, Marauders, Ravens or BCs, I feel that I'm limited now.
I guess that's just one of those safe vs greedy decisions. I should be used to that after playing Zerg for a while, but it feels odd as Terran.
So the smart move is to hold off on addons until I scout, then? Leave them naked until I see if I need a switch to one thing or another?
I use just enough techlabs to do research and satisfy unit production which means it's very opening dependent.
Getting an early reactor is essential if you intend to open bio because of medivac production. They are also good for quick map control due to hellions TvZ.
Once you're on 3+ bases reactors are generally bad since they force you along certain tech paths.
I think you are approaching this question the wrong way. For each matchup you should have a list of which production buildings you are going to have for each amount of bases. For example, for TvZ, here is my setup.
All these numbers were determined by watching korean pro replays like MMA and Bomber and copying their production setups. If you want to figure out which order you should be adding the production buildings you can do that by watching pro replays.
When you have a plan like this, you always know exactly which production buildings you should be making, instead of just randomly adding more production when your resources get high. Setting out plans like this improved my macro alot, I never float minerals and gas now, and floating minerals/gas is probably the biggest weakness of sub-masters players IMO.
I have been trying to have a plan like that, per that Day9 daily. However, I find it's harder to balance the buildings in the first place as Terran, since you need a mix of units from all building types to play effectively (except maybe vs P, less Factory focus there). I'm never quite sure as to how many of what type to have, but your list definately helps. Any chance you can also post your TvT and TvP baselines as well?
Destiny had a good advice for player bellow diamond. Don't try to ask this stuff on tl, just build scvs Trust me and trust those guys: If in all of the games you build scvs constantly and expand faster ( and i am 100% sure, can't prove since you do not have a reply, but i am 100% sure that you are not doing it ) Thinking about what buildings you have reactors on is pointless while those building aren't making units whole game long. Out of personal experience i can tell you that i am beating plat ppls with a 95% wlr on a friend acc as zerg or random and i do not know any fucking tactic for zerg, ppl there are just shit and they are not building stuff constantly/checking the minimap...etc Is pointless to think about what addons you should have at your level, this is my honest advice take it or leave it :/
On July 07 2011 03:34 Requizen wrote: @thepeonwhocould
I have been trying to have a plan like that, per that Day9 daily. However, I find it's harder to balance the buildings in the first place as Terran, since you need a mix of units from all building types to play effectively (except maybe vs P, less Factory focus there). I'm never quite sure as to how many of what type to have, but your list definately helps. Any chance you can also post your TvT and TvP baselines as well?
TvP I do a 2 rax pressure into expand (currently the most used build tvp in GSL). The core army is medivac/marine/marauder. Then there are the 2 "counter units" as I see them. If he has colossus, you need viking, if he has HT, you need ghost. As a general rule of thumb, as soon as you see him making colossus off 2 or more bases, you need 2 starports with reactors pumping vikings.
1 base: 1 reactor barracks, 1 tech lab barracks 2 base: 3 tech lab barracks, 2 reactor barracks, 1 reactor starport 3 base: 5 tech lab barracks, 3 reactor barracks, 2 reactor starport (if hes getting colossus. if hes going mostly HT then I get an extra tech lab barracks instead of the extra starport, for ghosts) 4+base: add about 2 more tech lab rax and 2 more reactor rax
TvT I basically do a 1/1/1 build, rushing to 2 cloaked banshees, then making 1 vikings. Then I transition into a marine/tank army, with a couple of medivacs, while trying to keep my viking count higher than his 1 base: 1 tech lab barracks (for upgrades), 1 tech lab factory, 1 tech lab starport 2 base: 1 tech lab rax, 2 reactor rax, 2 tech lab factory, 1 reactor starport 3 base: 1 tech lab rax, 4 reactor rax, 3 tech lab factory, 1 or 2 reactor starport (depending on his viking count. You should always be aiming to have more vikings. Don't engage until you have higher viking count). 4+ base: add 2 more tech lab factory and 2 more reactor barracks
Now I know these might not be perfect, but they work good for me. And you can adjust them if you feel the need to. Watching pro replays really helps, you can see what production buildings they have at each stage of the game. A good rule of thumb is, 3 production buildings with addons per base will allow you to keep your minerals/gas low.
Thank you very much! I've been trying to play with my "rule of thumb" as 1 Rax and 2 Tech buildings (Factory/Starport) per base or 3 Rax and 1 Tech building, depending on the matchup. It's good to see that it works pretty well for other people as well.
I've been trying to expand faster as well, I'm still getting down the timings of when it's safe to expand based on what the enemy is doing. Some maps (Xel'Naga) are just hard to hold the Natural unless you have a larger number of units thanks to all the entrances.
On July 05 2011 23:48 Requizen wrote: 1) If I'm going Marine/Tank/Medivac vs Zerg, should I immediately get Reactors on my Starports for more Medivacs, leave them naked so I can produce uninterrupted, or get some Tech Labs in case I want to get Banshees later on?
There have already been a lot of responses but I wanted to touch on this question.
The answer should be resoundingly, "No, do not immediately get reactors on starports when going marine/tank/medi in TvZ". On one base you can't afford the production of rax + fact + reactor port (+ ups). Once you get your first expo up then you can add on the reactor and your other production facilities.
EPT
