Hello all. Cheese is not really my style, but I figured I’d mix it up a bit and show you all a nice little PvT all in that revolves around the warp prism. It's not only effective, but also very fun to execute. I’ve seen White-Ra do this a while back when a lot of tournaments used Scrap Station, and storm drops were much more reliable and viable in the mid game and served as a relatively smooth transition.
But since Scrap is used less in tournaments and the storm drop style is not as potent nor reliable as it once was, I’ve made a few changes to make it a stronger all-in but less flexible if a follow-up is needed.
Essentially, you are 1-gas 4gating, but doing so from inside your enemy’s base. Sounds baller enough. This build will be most effective on Scrap Station and Metal/Temple in close air spawns. While this build does involve 4gateways, you also have a robotics facility in case you infiltrate your enemy's base to find he is trying to squeeze out a super fast cloak and you can't kill the tech lab without losing a significant amount of units. No problem; you can have an observer in his base by the time it finishes if you see it quickly enough.
Your attention to detail here can make or break your timing. Your CB appropriation should be as follows:
2 on nexus (11, 13) 1 on your initial stalker 3 on WG research 1 on warp prism
This will ensure that your gateways and WG research finish at the same time, and that your warp prism will arrive at the edge of your base the instant your 4 zealots finish warping in. Be wary; if you miss a CB on anything, your attack will be slightly delayed. Practice this against the AI a couple of times and it'll become very easy and intuitive to you.
The locations of your structures can come into play, be it because of a scan, a floating factory, or a reaper that you weren't able to catch. I prefer to place my 2nd pylon slightly away from where a scan would be centered and far from where a floating building would hover over.
If you spawn towards the west, this means you would place your 2nd pylon off to the left of your nexus; if you spawn towards the east, you'd place it southeast of your nexus. Here, you would want to place 1 or 2 of your gateways so that the terran won't see 4 gateways and a robo the instant he places that scan or hovers a factory. I prefer to keep the robo at the first pylon, as this is not much of a tell and gives the impression of standard play
I've tried proxying the 2nd pylon to hide additional gateways, but this doesn't seem to be a viable option. You sacrifice either your scouting probe's time at the watch tower or the mining time of a precious additional probe. Your robo shouldn't be right at the edge of your base, as this is kind of a tell and the timing works out so your warp prism is allowed a bit of flight time to reach the pick-up location.
Your 3rd pylon should be right at the edge of your base towards your opponent. This will be where you warp in your zealots. Your 4th pylon can be anywhere. You can even lay this pylon outside the front of your enemy's base in case you need to apply 2-prong pressure later on.
For the greatest chance of success, you're not going to want your opponent to know exactly what your up to. He can scout you 4 different ways.
He can scan you. This is why you want your additional 1 or 2 gates off to the side spaced just far from your other infrastructure so that your pseudoproxy pylon doesn't raise any suspicion and will not fall under where you think he is most likely to scan.
He can poke with 3 bio units. Sentries cut into your gas way too hard and the ramp is pretty big, so you won't be getting any of those. They're imba anyway Your zealot-stalker-zealot should fare well against 2 marauders and a marine, but you might want to pull a few probes just to be safe.
He can reaper scout you. You'll end up losing your scouting probe if it's at the tower, but you'll at least know it's coming. You'll want to have your stalker in a good position to catch it at the top of your cliff where you'd have your 2nd pylon, with your zealot below the ramp to see if he chooses that route.
He can float a building. See the section on building placement. He might ignore your stalker and continue floating but the time it takes him to scout your 2nd set of gateways is sufficient. He will, however, most likely see the prism and your warpins depending on the route he takes which means you'll have to get crafty with the angle you fly your warp prism and utilize a proxy pylon at the front of his base (he won't have a reaper if he floats a building so your scouting probe should be alive).
Obviously, zealots will be extremely strong in your initial bust. You can whack on scvs and they'll be stronger against marine-scv attack-move than stalkers because you won't be guaranteed much space to micro.
In the case your opponent opened 1-1-1, you'll want at least a round of stalkers to deal with the banshee while your zealots work on the repairing scvs (in the meantime chronoboosting out an observer if you see that the tech lab on the starport is active).
Against a bio expand, you'll want a mix of zealot stalker with heavy emphasis on zealots. If your opponent was trying to siege expand, you can warp in sentries for all I care; you pretty much get a build order win so to say.
Against a 1base bio play, your best off warping in almost exclusively zealots and trying to kill as many scv's as possible since you have the lowest chance of success against this kind of opening. Killing off lots of scvs will at least grant you a chance of breaking even if your attack doesn't deliver a killing blow.
The only time you are going to want to transition is if your opponent is massing bio off of one base. You got in, killed a bunch of SCV's and now you have 20 probes to your name. You're going to want to start your 2nd gas and get an observer in his base to check if he is going to expand afterwards or just power off of his barracks and try to kill you.
If he is expanding, go ahead and take your own. Just be wary of being greedy on chronoboosted probes, as you'll most likely only have gateway units and an immortal or 2 if he tries for an early 2 base timing.
If he is not expanding (make sure you check the gold with a probe and the isles with an observer just to be safe), get that 2nd gas and get jiggy with sentries. You're going to have to buy a lot of time with double forcefields and wear his medivac-less bio down with additional forcefields in order to win your inevitable last stand at the ramp.
You have your stalker and 2 zealots below his ramp outside of bunker range but perhaps threatening to creep up the ramp. Your warp prism is full of zealots and on its way towards the mineral line. Fly it across the mineral line and drop on top of the prism so it drops while moving. Begin phase mode after you have dropped a zealot or 2 and immediately warp in 4 zealots. Target scvs while your opponent is trying to figure out what in the hell just happened and put your prism in transport mode once the 4 zealots have COMPLETELY FINISHED WARPRING IN. If you ship your zealots to Auir prematurely because you were too jumpy on the trigger finger, you'll be forced to surrender red-cheeked with your tail betwixt your legs.
You may then reposition the prism so it is less susceptible to attack; I prefer to have it straddling the mineral line so that I may warp in stalkers behind the mineral line and zealots directly into the fray. You'll only be able to warp in 3 units on the second warp in if you manage to keep every single one of your inital units alive because of a supply cap, but this is negligible because losses are inevitable.
He's probably going to have a bunker and will try to bounce his bio between the mineral line and the bunker. Pick off what marines you can without having your forces in the main take too much damage from the bunker. In the meantime, poke up with your stalker and 2 zealots below the ramp and apply pressure there, as well. This forces him to keep more units at the front, which essentially shuts down his mining as he can't cover both places at once unless he is 3raxing (in which case he might not even have a bunker, which is good news). Your primary goal is to halt his mining. If he tries to engage you with scv-marine, your zealots will do extremely well by themselves. If he pulls his scvs and only engages with marines to kite your zealots, add stalkers to prevent this; Just don't let them get surrounded by scvs.
You're essentially denying him mules this whole time by preventing uninterrupted mining while killing as many scvs as possible. Believe it or not, this engagement might last a few minutes but your mining is perfect while his will eventually dry up. If it looks like he is fine with halting mining and camping by his bunker, start adding pylons for more stalkers to prevent him from kiting your zealots to the bunker over and over
You only have 16 mining probes so make the most of them! The more attention you pay to mineral pairing in the beginning, the tighter your timings will be. This applies not only to this build in particular, but any style you'll ever use. Try to make sure you can take your gas on 14 without cutting probes after 2 chronoboosts. Start practicing! Also, once you have all 16 probes on minerals, make sure they aren't tripling up on ineficient mineral patches, as this will severely impair your mineral income.
Chances are, you don't use prisms too often. I know I don't use them enough. By using this build here and there, you'll grow more comfortable with the warp prism's mechanics and you will see how strong zealots can be when warped away from the "death ball;" see Plexa's guide on warp prisms for additional applications.
This is hopefully what a scan would see. The 2nd pylon could afford to be slightly farther to the left. Shoutout to Artosis
This is what you don't want the scan to see. The gates could be on the left of the pylon and further from the nexus.
This is your 3rd pylon, where you will be warping in. Your prism should be rallied here and your warping in zealots should be rallied into the prism. Make sure you get all 4 in one sweep.
This is what happens when you face a 1;1;1 into 3;1;1 all in timing, a pretty common opener on this map. I draw the forces from the bunker to the mineral line then force him to engage at the front by pushing with my 3 initial units. He can no longer mine and I can wear his unit count down.
Here is a replay of the build, cut and dry. It is against the AI and serves only to demonstrate the timings and building positioning. http://replayfu.com/download/bF7KPk
This is a replay of me doing the build on ladder. It was kind of sloppy so I figured I'd refine it a bit and write this up for you guys. http://replayfu.com/download/N8LxQg
Here I kinda screwed up the timing because of the unexpected reaper scout. The 4th gate should have gone down with the other 2 but I didn't want to give it away to seriously. Somehow my 2 additional pylons were late as well http://replayfu.com/download/sVf0Gd
Vs. 2 port + raven. Against this just do as much econ damage as you can and take down the tech labs if at all possible. You'll wear him down eventually http://replayfu.com/download/x3zMPf
Good strat to have. The build in itself isn't anything new of course but the timings on your BO seem really nice. (For those who haven't watched the replay, it's 8 zealots in the mineral line and 2 zealots + 1 stalker at the ramp at 6:30)
I was wondering though why you chose to get only zealots ? In the ladder replays you warped in 3 stalkers in his mineral lines and it seemed like a much more stable army composition. It feels like it's too easy to kite or distract zealot-only armies.
Really sweet build order. One thing I noted is that as the attack occurs, assuming i'm going zealot heavy and even with some stalker support, I end up with a large surplus of gas. Would it be worth considering taking one guy off gas as soon as the robo goes down for a little more mineral backing?
On June 16 2011 16:27 Geiko wrote: Good strat to have. The build in itself isn't anything new of course but the timings on your BO seem really nice. (For those who haven't watched the replay, it's 8 zealots in the mineral line and 2 zealots + 1 stalker at the ramp at 6:30)
I was wondering though why you chose to get only zealots ? In the ladder replays you warped in 3 stalkers in his mineral lines and it seemed like a much more stable army composition. It feels like it's too easy to kite or distract zealot-only armies.
In the replay of the ladder game, I actually think warping in a round of zealots instead of stalkers would have been better. The zealots function much better than stalkers in weird situations where the terran is trying to figure out where he needs to position units in that they kill scvs faster when the scvs are on attack-move. I don't really need to kill the marines with the zealots, just prevent the scvs from mining, and the only way he can try to force his right to mine is by engaging the zealots with scv-marine. I think I might the stalker warp-in was out of panic from seeing the tech labbed star port, though they did seem to work pretty well because there is only so much surface area to be had with zealots in these situations.
Very Nice :D Couldn't you cut the 4th gate though, and just get a Zealot from the 1st gateway before WG finishes? Same number of units when you hit, plus and extra 150 minerals for a later warp-in.
On June 16 2011 16:30 giuocob wrote: Really sweet build order. One thing I noted is that as the attack occurs, assuming i'm going zealot heavy and even with some stalker support, I end up with a large surplus of gas. Would it be worth considering taking one guy off gas as soon as the robo goes down for a little more mineral backing?
I'd be careful about pulling a probe out of gas here. Stalkers do have their role in this build. They clean up very well after your zealots have denied mining for long enough in that you can micro them back from marines bouncing between the mineral line and the front and the scvs have been pulled indefinitely.
edit: Also, an additional probe on minerals is not going to add to much to your mineral income, as it would just be a 3rd probe on a less efficient mineral patch.
On June 16 2011 16:34 _civ_ wrote: Very Nice :D Couldn't you cut the 4th gate though, and just get a Zealot from the 1st gateway before WG finishes? Same number of units when you hit, plus and extra 150 minerals for a later warp-in.
Good question. I think that the real power of this build comes from the 4 zealots that you can barely afford when your prism is first stationed in the mineral line, and removing the 4th gate cuts that zealot out. Also, you don't really need an extra 150 minerals for the 3rd set of warp ins; It's true you can't sustain all 4 warpages after the initial warp-in inside the terran base, but having one less gate would mean you'd be stockpiling 150 additional minerals throughout your opening and you wouldn't have that 4th gate to dump it with. It'd be less all-in when everything you have is already on the other side of the map
edit: Let me clarify the bold text. You are capped on the timing of your WG research and warp prism training. Saving those 150 minerals won't make your WG come any faster nor will it make your warp prism come any faster.
This would work very well against my Ice Fisher Build. As long as you can defend the warp prism from my 4 queens its pretty much one of the best chances of taking an ice fisher build early game. You could pull off gas and mine straight mineral and just pump out z's, as you would only be going up against queens and slow lings. And then spines when they are uprooted from the front of the base.
Good, detailed guide. This looks like a lot of fun. Would this work in other matchups? I mean obviously this is good against terran walls and stuff but having the chance to do warp ins inside the main and at the front with a pylon could force a zerg opponent to run back and forth between his main and natural (which is quite a long run on scrap). I do like to use prisms vs zerg on scrap but haven't tried anything like this yet.
A lot of people ask if this would work in other matchups. HELL YES this owns in pvp, especially if your opponent is teching hard (twilight, stargate). You probably wont win a 3gate robo build, because he will have alot of units (this is by my experience). You can do this White-ra style, if your gas is stolen, you build gates near the gas, after you have build your robo, so he "knows" that you are 4gating. Many players wont be ready for drop, because they will probably have sentries. Go watch the White-ra episode of MrBitters next 12 weeks. Special taktiks ftw!
so glad you went ahead and figured out the timings for this, im too lazy to sit down and tweak what i see on whitera's stream. this is an awesome build, so satisfying to pull off
On June 16 2011 18:03 Banaanisaha wrote: A lot of people ask if this would work in other matchups. HELL YES this owns in pvp, especially if your opponent is teching hard (twilight, stargate). You probably wont win a 3gate robo build, because he will have alot of units (this is by my experience). You can do this White-ra style, if your gas is stolen, you build gates near the gas, after you have build your robo, so he "knows" that you are 4gating. Many players wont be ready for drop, because they will probably have sentries. Go watch the White-ra episode of MrBitters next 12 weeks. Special taktiks ftw!
It's pretty ballsy to try in a pvp but it does have some value, I suppose.
Now that I think about it, it maybe force your opponent into heavy sentry play or a defensive 4gate because you look EXACTLY like you're going to 4gate until you drop the robo, at which point you have a stalker out to deny scouting. And then if a defensive 4gate feels you are not going to be aggressive, it's very possible he'd start cutting units and begin teching. I haven't done any testing with this so no promises here, though.
If your opponent goes for an offensive 4gate despite seeing your "4gate," you are dead, however.
I do a modified version of this build myself (I actually knocked out your teammate Murder in an IPL qual with it). I get 2 more probes, 2nd gate before the robo, 3rd pylon, 2 more gates, 2 more units off the 2 gates, 2 chronos on Warp Prism, then load up everything. The Warp Prism usually loads up right when my WG finishes since I don't spend that much chrono on WG.
Concerning this in PvP, you get into a base trade situation if you do this against an offensive 4 gate, so you aren't completely dead.
On June 16 2011 22:53 Forbs wrote: I do a modified version of this build myself (I actually knocked out your teammate Murder in an IPL qual with it). I get 2 more probes, 2nd gate before the robo, 3rd pylon, 2 more gates, 2 more units off the 2 gates, 2 chronos on Warp Prism, then load up everything. The Warp Prism usually loads up right when my WG finishes since I don't spend that much chrono on WG.
Concerning this in PvP, you get into a base trade situation if you do this against an offensive 4 gate, so you aren't completely dead.
Nah you are dead. He has 6 stalkers and theres no way you can have any more than 4 on the first engagement if you warp in defensively, and you won't have the prism in his base until well after his push comes. Not to mention his wg will come ~20 seconds before yours because you got a robo and are expending 2 chronoboosts elsewhere
I think the build I use has a better time dealing with an offensive 4 gate than yours. With either build though, you'll still be at a disadvantage immediately.
This would work very well against my Ice Fisher Build. As long as you can defend the warp prism from my 4 queens its pretty much one of the best chances of taking an ice fisher build early game. You could pull off gas and mine straight mineral and just pump out z's, as you would only be going up against queens and slow lings. And then spines when they are uprooted from the front of the base.
Yeah I definitely think this has applications in PvZ, as a zerg isn't likely to be very heavy on roaches at the timing when it hits. However, He will probably be aware that you haven't taken a second gas so you might want to grab a 2nd gas just for show but not mine much at all from it.
Just died to this! I'm punching myself in the face right now for only glancing over this thread earlier xD.
This build is the hard counter to my 2 Rax 3 Bunker opener. There's nothing I could have done to hold it off once the engagement began. I scouted it but it looked like a 2 Gate Robo expand, not a Warp Prism allin. A little spin off the metagame, but incredibly smart nonetheless.
Well done Alej Now I'll just have to devise a way to stop this!
On June 17 2011 05:20 Anihc wrote: Your guides are great as always. I love how it's broken up into chunks and you bold important phrases. Makes it fun to read. Thanks
Thank you for noticing :D I previewed it when I was done typing it and figured it needed a punch up so I went bold ^^
Everyone feel free to post their replays! It's damn fun to do this and I'd like to see how these games play out as I don't get scrap a lot, and it's 1/3 that it's vs terran.
On June 17 2011 06:53 AGIANTSMURF wrote: One of my favorite builds in PvT, anytime i feel that the terran is being shady (especially close air positions) this is my go-to build
here, have a replay (1300+ master)
Haha nice. As you'll find, doing this against a mech expand play is pretty much a slam dunk. I'd be wary about double gassing, even if you pull them early on. Your gates came up late and as a result so did the attack. I appreciate your input
I saw whitera do this in a PvP, and Kiwi did a variant of this where he got (iirc) 11gas before gateway, and an early forge for +1 in a PvZ.
I've been doing it on ladder (usually when close air spawns are available) PvP and PvT, but for PvP it's kinda "holy shit I hope he doesn't place pylons around his base cuz stalkers can focus the warp prism down and you're basically screwed after your first warp in. If they didn't notice (which they usually don't), then if they did anything but a 4gate they're basically screwed. forcefields won't do them any favours unless they simcitied which no1 does in pvp.
A slight variant, if you aren't close air spawns, just proxy the robo facility (i.e. in xel'naga caverns, I proxied my robo in the expansion above my opponent's main who spawned in the south). Rally your 2zealots + stalker there, spend 1 more chrono on your warp prism instead of probes (will delay the push a little but not much) so your first warp in is in his base. You will not have any units at his front.
On June 17 2011 07:29 tuestresfat wrote: I saw whitera do this in a PvP, and Kiwi did a variant of this where he got (iirc) 11gas before gateway, and an early forge for +1 in a PvZ.
I've been doing it on ladder (usually when close air spawns are available) PvP and PvT, but for PvP it's kinda "holy shit I hope he doesn't place pylons around his base cuz stalkers can focus the warp prism down and you're basically screwed after your first warp in. If they didn't notice (which they usually don't), then if they did anything but a 4gate they're basically screwed. forcefields won't do them any favours unless they simcitied which no1 does in pvp.
A slight variant, if you aren't close air spawns, just proxy the robo facility (i.e. in xel'naga caverns, I proxied my robo in the expansion above my opponent's main who spawned in the south). Rally your 2zealots + stalker there, spend 1 more chrono on your warp prism instead of probes (will delay the push a little but not much) so your first warp in is in his base. You will not have any units at his front.
Haha that was a pretty funny game. I don't think it has too much educational value though. Nowadays you'll rarely see a protoss respond to a 3:00 cybernetics core by... adding a second gas, putting on no pressure and gearing up for a blink timing. It was very cool to watch, though. I'm thinking a warp prism 4gate might be strong against a protoss who takes his 2nd gas right in front of you, as when you hit, your opponent will not have blink yet, he will not have dt's anytime soon, he won't have colossus, and he probably won't be 4gating you (though I have seen some 2 gas 4 gates recently. If I have an oppurtunity to try it in pvp I will definitely give it a shot and post the replay here!
How does this handle vs a terran who just pulls SCVs away from your zealots, instead of attack moving with them (and thereby getting them killed), while leaving his bunker filled and pulling the rest of the units to handle the drop?
On June 17 2011 08:19 ExO_ wrote: How does this handle vs a terran who just pulls SCVs away from your zealots, instead of attack moving with them (and thereby getting them killed), while leaving his bunker filled and pulling the rest of the units to handle the drop?
As long as you are halting mining time, you are doing fine. In the meantime, whack on infrastructure: depots, addons, unit producing structrues. Once your zealots have made the scvs stop mining, you can then add stalkers to help deal with the terran kiting you to his bunkers. You will need to engage with zealots as well if he is getting marauders, however.
This is a pretty good PvT build. I've stolen quite a few games with it myself when I get close air and just dont feel like putting up with mass drops or the certain spawn.
On June 17 2011 08:26 DuckS wrote: This is a pretty good PvT build. I've stolen quite a few games with it myself when I get close air and just dont feel like putting up with mass drops or the certain spawn.
I know what you mean. The reason why I ripped this build off white-ra way back when was because I was sick of PvT on this map. Drops are so strong and raven and/or banshee all-ins are very prevalent. I felt like opening phoenixes was the only answer, but playing the same way blindly every game in a style that is mostly harass and doesn't punish greedy builds is not a great way to play it. Then came white-ra...
On June 17 2011 07:29 tuestresfat wrote: I saw whitera do this in a PvP, and Kiwi did a variant of this where he got (iirc) 11gas before gateway, and an early forge for +1 in a PvZ.
I've been doing it on ladder (usually when close air spawns are available) PvP and PvT, but for PvP it's kinda "holy shit I hope he doesn't place pylons around his base cuz stalkers can focus the warp prism down and you're basically screwed after your first warp in. If they didn't notice (which they usually don't), then if they did anything but a 4gate they're basically screwed. forcefields won't do them any favours unless they simcitied which no1 does in pvp.
A slight variant, if you aren't close air spawns, just proxy the robo facility (i.e. in xel'naga caverns, I proxied my robo in the expansion above my opponent's main who spawned in the south). Rally your 2zealots + stalker there, spend 1 more chrono on your warp prism instead of probes (will delay the push a little but not much) so your first warp in is in his base. You will not have any units at his front.
Haha that was a pretty funny game. I don't think it has too much educational value though. Nowadays you'll rarely see a protoss respond to a 3:00 cybernetics core by... adding a second gas, putting on no pressure and gearing up for a blink timing. It was very cool to watch, though. I'm thinking a warp prism 4gate might be strong against a protoss who takes his 2nd gas right in front of you, as when you hit, your opponent will not have blink yet, he will not have dt's anytime soon, he won't have colossus, and he probably won't be 4gating you (though I have seen some 2 gas 4 gates recently. If I have an oppurtunity to try it in pvp I will definitely give it a shot and post the replay here!
Yea i'm not sure why whitera opted to chrono out more probes and delaying his cyber for a good 20+ seconds. he also got his 2nd gas as he pushed out.
i execute it to make it appear like a standard 4gate, and the majority of players respond with 3gate robo, which (more often than not) loses to this.
This build is extraordinarily cute :D I love cute builds! Thanks for the write-up!
You know what else I'd love to see, is a rip of WhiteRa's 2gas version of this build vs a terran who fast expands.. where he grabs sentries to FF the terran out of his own base, such a cute and sexy play, I love it!
I think the real moral of the story is... WhiteRa is a total nerd baller :D
On June 17 2011 07:29 tuestresfat wrote: I saw whitera do this in a PvP, and Kiwi did a variant of this where he got (iirc) 11gas before gateway, and an early forge for +1 in a PvZ.
I've been doing it on ladder (usually when close air spawns are available) PvP and PvT, but for PvP it's kinda "holy shit I hope he doesn't place pylons around his base cuz stalkers can focus the warp prism down and you're basically screwed after your first warp in. If they didn't notice (which they usually don't), then if they did anything but a 4gate they're basically screwed. forcefields won't do them any favours unless they simcitied which no1 does in pvp.
A slight variant, if you aren't close air spawns, just proxy the robo facility (i.e. in xel'naga caverns, I proxied my robo in the expansion above my opponent's main who spawned in the south). Rally your 2zealots + stalker there, spend 1 more chrono on your warp prism instead of probes (will delay the push a little but not much) so your first warp in is in his base. You will not have any units at his front.
Haha that was a pretty funny game. I don't think it has too much educational value though. Nowadays you'll rarely see a protoss respond to a 3:00 cybernetics core by... adding a second gas, putting on no pressure and gearing up for a blink timing. It was very cool to watch, though. I'm thinking a warp prism 4gate might be strong against a protoss who takes his 2nd gas right in front of you, as when you hit, your opponent will not have blink yet, he will not have dt's anytime soon, he won't have colossus, and he probably won't be 4gating you (though I have seen some 2 gas 4 gates recently. If I have an oppurtunity to try it in pvp I will definitely give it a shot and post the replay here!
Yea i'm not sure why whitera opted to chrono out more probes and delaying his cyber for a good 20+ seconds. he also got his 2nd gas as he pushed out.
i execute it to make it appear like a standard 4gate, and the majority of players respond with 3gate robo, which (more often than not) loses to this.
The core came late because he cut a bit of econ to get his gas so early. I think the early gas might have been pretty good pre WG nerf but now I think not so much. With the build in the OP, your robo feels late because it takes a long time to get 200 gas (stalker, wg, robo) off of one gas at the standard time. Before the WG nerf, you could get the earlier gas and be FINE with a slightly later core because WG came 20 seconds faster. Now that it comes later, it's no longer worth it to delay your core (and therefore your WG) in order to get a faster robo as your timing will be capped by your WG finishing and not your warp prism training, anyway. I hope that makes sense o_O
And I think white-ra got the 2nd gas (and therefore more probes) because he wanted more stalkers than you would want in a PvT; if he stays on 1 gas, he'll be down 100 gas because of the robo already and stalkers could kite him forever. Obviously that didn't matter too much in this game because he caught genius with his pants down.
On June 17 2011 07:29 tuestresfat wrote: I saw whitera do this in a PvP, and Kiwi did a variant of this where he got (iirc) 11gas before gateway, and an early forge for +1 in a PvZ.
I've been doing it on ladder (usually when close air spawns are available) PvP and PvT, but for PvP it's kinda "holy shit I hope he doesn't place pylons around his base cuz stalkers can focus the warp prism down and you're basically screwed after your first warp in. If they didn't notice (which they usually don't), then if they did anything but a 4gate they're basically screwed. forcefields won't do them any favours unless they simcitied which no1 does in pvp.
A slight variant, if you aren't close air spawns, just proxy the robo facility (i.e. in xel'naga caverns, I proxied my robo in the expansion above my opponent's main who spawned in the south). Rally your 2zealots + stalker there, spend 1 more chrono on your warp prism instead of probes (will delay the push a little but not much) so your first warp in is in his base. You will not have any units at his front.
Haha that was a pretty funny game. I don't think it has too much educational value though. Nowadays you'll rarely see a protoss respond to a 3:00 cybernetics core by... adding a second gas, putting on no pressure and gearing up for a blink timing. It was very cool to watch, though. I'm thinking a warp prism 4gate might be strong against a protoss who takes his 2nd gas right in front of you, as when you hit, your opponent will not have blink yet, he will not have dt's anytime soon, he won't have colossus, and he probably won't be 4gating you (though I have seen some 2 gas 4 gates recently. If I have an oppurtunity to try it in pvp I will definitely give it a shot and post the replay here!
Yea i'm not sure why whitera opted to chrono out more probes and delaying his cyber for a good 20+ seconds. he also got his 2nd gas as he pushed out.
i execute it to make it appear like a standard 4gate, and the majority of players respond with 3gate robo, which (more often than not) loses to this.
The core came late because he cut a bit of econ to get his gas so early. I think the early gas might have been pretty good pre WG nerf but now I think not so much. With the build in the OP, your robo feels late because it takes a long time to get 200 gas (stalker, wg, robo) off of one gas at the standard time. Before the WG nerf, you could get the earlier gas and be FINE with a slightly later core because WG came 20 seconds faster. Now that it comes later, it's no longer worth it to delay your core (and therefore your WG) in order to get a faster robo as your timing will be capped by your WG finishing and not your warp prism training, anyway. I hope that makes sense o_O
And I think white-ra got the 2nd gas (and therefore more probes) because he wanted more stalkers than you would want in a PvT; if he stays on 1 gas, he'll be down 100 gas because of the robo already and stalkers could kite him forever. Obviously that didn't matter too much in this game because he caught genius with his pants down.
I re-watched the vid and whitera went 12gate 14gas (same as your OP). I still don't understand how he wasn't able to plant his cyber (he had like 70minerals) down immediately after gateway. It's not like he made a zealot or anything. I doubt whitera would queue a ton of probes for no reason...
edit: as far as the first few minutes of the game are concerned, he matched genius in probe production. Not really any cutting anywhere.
I just did this build (Shattered Temple, cross positions) within minutes of reading it for the first time and managed a win with it, sloppily executed, but I read it on the way home and decided to try it out.
On June 17 2011 07:29 tuestresfat wrote: I saw whitera do this in a PvP, and Kiwi did a variant of this where he got (iirc) 11gas before gateway, and an early forge for +1 in a PvZ.
I've been doing it on ladder (usually when close air spawns are available) PvP and PvT, but for PvP it's kinda "holy shit I hope he doesn't place pylons around his base cuz stalkers can focus the warp prism down and you're basically screwed after your first warp in. If they didn't notice (which they usually don't), then if they did anything but a 4gate they're basically screwed. forcefields won't do them any favours unless they simcitied which no1 does in pvp.
A slight variant, if you aren't close air spawns, just proxy the robo facility (i.e. in xel'naga caverns, I proxied my robo in the expansion above my opponent's main who spawned in the south). Rally your 2zealots + stalker there, spend 1 more chrono on your warp prism instead of probes (will delay the push a little but not much) so your first warp in is in his base. You will not have any units at his front.
Haha that was a pretty funny game. I don't think it has too much educational value though. Nowadays you'll rarely see a protoss respond to a 3:00 cybernetics core by... adding a second gas, putting on no pressure and gearing up for a blink timing. It was very cool to watch, though. I'm thinking a warp prism 4gate might be strong against a protoss who takes his 2nd gas right in front of you, as when you hit, your opponent will not have blink yet, he will not have dt's anytime soon, he won't have colossus, and he probably won't be 4gating you (though I have seen some 2 gas 4 gates recently. If I have an oppurtunity to try it in pvp I will definitely give it a shot and post the replay here!
Yea i'm not sure why whitera opted to chrono out more probes and delaying his cyber for a good 20+ seconds. he also got his 2nd gas as he pushed out.
i execute it to make it appear like a standard 4gate, and the majority of players respond with 3gate robo, which (more often than not) loses to this.
The core came late because he cut a bit of econ to get his gas so early. I think the early gas might have been pretty good pre WG nerf but now I think not so much. With the build in the OP, your robo feels late because it takes a long time to get 200 gas (stalker, wg, robo) off of one gas at the standard time. Before the WG nerf, you could get the earlier gas and be FINE with a slightly later core because WG came 20 seconds faster. Now that it comes later, it's no longer worth it to delay your core (and therefore your WG) in order to get a faster robo as your timing will be capped by your WG finishing and not your warp prism training, anyway. I hope that makes sense o_O
And I think white-ra got the 2nd gas (and therefore more probes) because he wanted more stalkers than you would want in a PvT; if he stays on 1 gas, he'll be down 100 gas because of the robo already and stalkers could kite him forever. Obviously that didn't matter too much in this game because he caught genius with his pants down.
I re-watched the vid and whitera went 12gate 14gas (same as your OP). I still don't understand how he wasn't able to plant his cyber (he had like 70minerals) down immediately after gateway. It's not like he made a zealot or anything. I doubt whitera would queue a ton of probes for no reason...
edit: as far as the first few minutes of the game are concerned, he matched genius in probe production. Not really any cutting anywhere.
Oh my mistake. I think some one said they saw white-ra use an 11gas for the build and I just assumed that was the game. In that case, that is very peculiar his core would be ~15 seconds late. I guess white-ra just puts down buildings when he feels like it and wins anyway
On June 17 2011 06:36 Synystyr wrote: Just died to this! I'm punching myself in the face right now for only glancing over this thread earlier xD.
This build is the hard counter to my 2 Rax 3 Bunker opener. There's nothing I could have done to hold it off once the engagement began. I scouted it but it looked like a 2 Gate Robo expand, not a Warp Prism allin. A little spin off the metagame, but incredibly smart nonetheless.
Well done Alej Now I'll just have to devise a way to stop this!
Replay please!!!! Sounds like they hid their gateways pretty well eh? hehe
This would work very well against my Ice Fisher Build. As long as you can defend the warp prism from my 4 queens its pretty much one of the best chances of taking an ice fisher build early game. You could pull off gas and mine straight mineral and just pump out z's, as you would only be going up against queens and slow lings. And then spines when they are uprooted from the front of the base.
Yeah I definitely think this has applications in PvZ, as a zerg isn't likely to be very heavy on roaches at the timing when it hits. However, He will probably be aware that you haven't taken a second gas so you might want to grab a 2nd gas just for show but not mine much at all from it.
Zerg these days seem to lean more towards spine crawlers for defending a 4gate when they see one gas, rather than roaches.
This would work very well against my Ice Fisher Build. As long as you can defend the warp prism from my 4 queens its pretty much one of the best chances of taking an ice fisher build early game. You could pull off gas and mine straight mineral and just pump out z's, as you would only be going up against queens and slow lings. And then spines when they are uprooted from the front of the base.
Yeah I definitely think this has applications in PvZ, as a zerg isn't likely to be very heavy on roaches at the timing when it hits. However, He will probably be aware that you haven't taken a second gas so you might want to grab a 2nd gas just for show but not mine much at all from it.
Zerg these days seem to lean more towards spine crawlers for defending a 4gate when they see one gas, rather than roaches.
I'm sorry; I wasn't implying that the zerg would react to a 4gate with roaches, just that he won't have roaches at the timing of the attack unless he's doing a very low econ roach-ling all in. I suppose if the zerg reacts by making a lot of spines it makes it easier for this build
Here I kinda screwed up the timing because of the reaper scout. The 4th gate should have gone down with the other 2 but I didn't want to give it away too blatantly. Somehow my 2 additional pylons were late as well
Does anyone have any Terran advice/replays on stopping this? Having a bunker up is pretty key to stopping a 4 gate with most Terran builds and the warp prism completely circumvents that...
Is it advisable to make a sentry back home during the attack or use the gas on stalkers? Situation dependent or are other people making the sentry too?
I hate this build . So far i faced it only once on the ladder and i got into his base with my hellion and scouted 4 warpgates. The robo was hidden in a corner of his base , so after i scouted 4 warpgates gates the last thing i thought about is doing some more scouting if theres a robo . 3 bunkers at the ramp are somewhat useless vs this .
You could add hellion scout to the scouting options that terran can do.
Maybe consider hiding a gateway somewhere so that if your opponent does manage to scout he sees a 3 gate robo. Although only one gas would alert him that something fishy is up.
On July 03 2011 10:46 Moobutt wrote: Maybe consider hiding a gateway somewhere so that if your opponent does manage to scout he sees a 3 gate robo. Although only one gas would alert him that something fishy is up.
I've played around with the idea but actually doing it is pretty inefficient.
You don't have room in the build for a 3rd pylon in time to get a gateway up in time.
Hiding the 1-2 gates in your base by your 2nd pylon usually does the trick.
Terribly well written, the Engagement section really made me break out into a full grin. This rush is both fun and my newest reason to put scrap station back into my map pool!
Probably silly but could be better in certain situations, plus would make you feel like a COMPLETE baller:
Build a forge instead of a 4th gate, send a probe+3zlots instead of 4 zlots in the prism, and use the prism's power field to start building cannon(s). You can also build a pylon to power the cannon + future warpins, and move the prism away so you have options of where to warp in + the expensive prism is less likely to die. FYI the cannon and (duh) pylon will continue to warp in once the prism moves away, you only need power to begin the warpin and to power it after it completes. Small bonus of doing this is that you have a forge up for upgrades / defensive cannons if the game doesn't end on the spot.
On July 03 2011 11:44 Keilah wrote: Probably silly but could be better in certain situations, plus would make you feel like a COMPLETE baller:
Build a forge instead of a 4th gate, send a probe+3zlots instead of 4 zlots in the prism, and use the prism's power field to start building cannon(s). You can also build a pylon to power the cannon + future warpins, and move the prism away so you have options of where to warp in + the expensive prism is less likely to die. FYI the cannon and (duh) pylon will continue to warp in once the prism moves away, you only need power to begin the warpin and to power it after it completes. Small bonus of doing this is that you have a forge up for upgrades / defensive cannons if the game doesn't end on the spot.
Oh and if you go 3gate + forge instead of 4gate, you can probably sneak in an extra probe or two because the forge can be built much later than the 4th gate without delaying your timings.
looks like I can have the stalker;2 zealots at the front, 3 zels dropped in, 3 zealots warping into the mineral line and a cannon started in the mineral line at 6:30. I'll see if I get do it any better with some more testing. I managed to squeeze in 4 more probes, as well.
This is a really great build, I always use this close air position Metalopolis PvT. It's funny when you abuse the smoke in the back of their base too. They run in trying to kill your units but they cant kite the Zealots if you keep them in the smoke.
On July 04 2011 11:47 Alejandrisha wrote: looks like I can have the stalker;2 zealots at the front, 3 zels dropped in, 3 zealots warping into the mineral line and a cannon started in the mineral line at 6:30. I'll see if I get do it any better with some more testing. I managed to squeeze in 4 more probes, as well.
On July 04 2011 11:47 Alejandrisha wrote: looks like I can have the stalker;2 zealots at the front, 3 zels dropped in, 3 zealots warping into the mineral line and a cannon started in the mineral line at 6:30. I'll see if I get do it any better with some more testing. I managed to squeeze in 4 more probes, as well.
Or 3 probes and a geyser.
Eh, I don't really like the 2nd gas for this build, and the cannon variation makes stalkers less necessary. I've even been pulling a probe off of gas after the robo starts since you build up a lot of excess gas. I think it's important to have some gas on hand in case you need an observer or some stalkers, but in no way do you need the 2nd one very early.
I was thinking more along the lines of sentries tbh, they could be useful to buy time for your cannon to complete, or to lock the scvs in with your zealots, or to reduce frontage slightly when they a-move SCV/MM. I'd assume 5zlots 1sentry would be more effective than 6 zlots, no? Especially if the sentry can somehow be made early enough that it has 2 FFs or a GS.
Eh you need to be careful, though. You're down from 4 zealots coming out of the warp prism to 3 zealots + a probe, now you want 2 zealots a probe and a sentry.. doesn't seem to explosive to me. I think you need more power and less finesse with this.
This is a great strat if the opponent decides to go for a mass cannon FE :/ It happened on tal'darim and I thought OH! IDIOT! I can expand with impunity! Take out his 4th push into his 3rd and destroy some 50 cannons, then WTF-CARRIERS!?
Next time I queued I played again and I did this warp prism thing. It was awesome.
On July 05 2011 22:57 Alejandrisha wrote: Eh you need to be careful, though. You're down from 4 zealots coming out of the warp prism to 3 zealots + a probe, now you want 2 zealots a probe and a sentry.. doesn't seem to explosive to me. I think you need more power and less finesse with this.
There is the special variant which is the sentry drop all-in, that some Korean pros have shown off. You make sentries early to put in your prism, catch the terran (or zerg) army when they're out of the base protecting a new expansion, and keep the ramp perma-forcefielded whilst warping into his main off four gates. I believe there'd be a thread on it around somewhere.
On July 05 2011 22:57 Alejandrisha wrote: Eh you need to be careful, though. You're down from 4 zealots coming out of the warp prism to 3 zealots + a probe, now you want 2 zealots a probe and a sentry.. doesn't seem to explosive to me. I think you need more power and less finesse with this.
There is the special variant which is the sentry drop all-in, that some Korean pros have shown off. You make sentries early to put in your prism, catch the terran (or zerg) army when they're out of the base protecting a new expansion, and keep the ramp perma-forcefielded whilst warping into his main off four gates. I believe there'd be a thread on it around somewhere.
There has been a cascade of good PvX builds in TL Strategy forums lately; thanks! Can't wait to get home and unleash this on some unsuspecting Terrans.
On July 05 2011 22:57 Alejandrisha wrote: Eh you need to be careful, though. You're down from 4 zealots coming out of the warp prism to 3 zealots + a probe, now you want 2 zealots a probe and a sentry.. doesn't seem to explosive to me. I think you need more power and less finesse with this.
There is the special variant which is the sentry drop all-in, that some Korean pros have shown off. You make sentries early to put in your prism, catch the terran (or zerg) army when they're out of the base protecting a new expansion, and keep the ramp perma-forcefielded whilst warping into his main off four gates. I believe there'd be a thread on it around somewhere.
I understand that. This is not that, though
True. What I should have said was that he shouldn't be half-hearted about going sentries. Either do the build designed to abuse force-field, or don't worry about them. I agree with completely what you said, I just wanted to mention the alternatives for a more complete picture.
Been having so much fun with this build. Even after this post has been up for weeks, I'm still finding terrans shocked when I use it. I've thought about adding cannons, but haven't tried yet because it seems like it would be fragile against some MM builds...at least getting the cannon up and then protecting it as warp prisms die so quickly to marines.
On July 06 2011 07:53 CombatFan wrote: This build will almost definitly not work as you can do almost the exact same thing with a warp prism as you can do with a pylon, except with a pylon you don't need a robo (200mins/100gas), and a warpprism (200mins) so you save yourself 400mins and 100gas, only to give up not being able to warp stuff into your opponents base, which doesn't seem like a big deal imo
As a newer player, Yabot helps me get a feel for how to execute build orders - also, because I'm a newer player, the transcription may need some tweeking. The time values are taken from the Alejandrisha vs AI replay. Please do let me know if there is anything glaringly wrong with the timings.
Thanks Alejandrisha for the BO! I'll be practicing this one for sure.
Now that people brought up the cannons it reminds me of the Kiwikaki vs. Machine game on Meta close air where he got a fast +1 weapons, 4 gates and warp prism. Had 7 +1 zealots in the base with cannons on the way to run back to.
On July 07 2011 04:09 mordek wrote: Now that people brought up the cannons it reminds me of the Kiwikaki vs. Machine game on Meta close air where he got a fast +1 weapons, 4 gates and warp prism. Had 7 +1 zealots in the base with cannons on the way to run back to.
Popularized as his "+1 Flying Korean Warpgate Cannonrush".
On July 07 2011 09:02 Corsica wrote: Relly sweet BO! I've seen white-ra do this vs Tarson recently (HD's channel) Gonna try it out :D
How you guys think it will work on xelnaga or taldarim(not cross)?
You'd have to make some variations if you wanted it to work on those maps.
If you REALLY want to try it, use your scouting pylon to make your 2nd pylon at the side expansion on xel'naga and either the 3rd or the pocket expansion on teldarim (i recommend the pocket expansion, obviously :} ). You'll be proxying your robo and 1 or 2 gateways at this pylon, because you you won't have a 2nd pylon in your base to "hide" your additional gateways. I was, personally, never satisfied with doing this. It might be more efficient to use a 3rd pylon much earlier than in the original build, but it makes the rush come significantly later. If you try it and it works well, feel free to post a replay and I'll have a looksie!
thanks for this build! this might be the first cheese i've actually had any success with on ladder. good to note that this build doesn't do to badly vs a zerg that's caught off guard either (even at 1600+ master).
like someone posted earlier, vs terran, a 3gate + forge variation actually works amazingly well. just: -cut probes at the same time, -after robo, instead of 3xgates then 2xpylon, go 2xgate, pylon, forge pylon. -warp in 3zealots instead of 4 (duh), and load up a probe to go with them -drop in their mineral line, warp 3 units at a time while building cannons at the back of the mineral line -reinforce the cannons with a pylon as soon as you can afford it
if the warp prism comes out with a 4-gate warp pressure behind it... that's deadly
but if you can't handle say initial bunker harrass into medivac harrass, or 5 speed reaper harrass (I like to go with 5 to snipe pylons and stalkers) into cloak banshee.
It's cool to go aggro, but the failings lie in its ability to deal with other aggro builds, especially aggro builds with a macro plan.
On July 10 2011 03:16 IzieBoy wrote: not so sure about your build
if the warp prism comes out with a 4-gate warp pressure behind it... that's deadly
but if you can't handle say initial bunker harrass into medivac harrass, or 5 speed reaper harrass (I like to go with 5 to snipe pylons and stalkers) into cloak banshee.
It's cool to go aggro, but the failings lie in its ability to deal with other aggro builds, especially aggro builds with a macro plan.
Your failings lie with your insistance of theorycrafting in lieu of replays and evidence
On July 10 2011 02:27 eYeball wrote: I wish all builds were this structured and informational.
Alejandrisha you should make a PvP and a PvZ also, then my ladder builds are complete.
Nonetheless, great work. Going to practice this before season 3 starts.
Thank you! I haven't found anything very sexy in PvP and PvZ to really make a guide about but I am always looking for gosu strats/builds that are interesting and fun to execute. I will keep my eyes peeled! Few watch as much starcraft as I do :}
On July 10 2011 03:16 IzieBoy wrote: not so sure about your build
if the warp prism comes out with a 4-gate warp pressure behind it... that's deadly
but if you can't handle say initial bunker harrass into medivac harrass, or 5 speed reaper harrass (I like to go with 5 to snipe pylons and stalkers) into cloak banshee.
It's cool to go aggro, but the failings lie in its ability to deal with other aggro builds, especially aggro builds with a macro plan.
Your failings lie with your insistance of theorycrafting in lieu of replays and evidence
Okay i'll make a video of it, but the guy who does it isn't me...
A slight variation of this build (and i really mean slight) has given me great results where, right when warp prism finishes, chronoing an observer to follow has saved me from cloak banshees and counter drops. Just recently i did this when i scouted a factory in terrans base. my Drop hit, pulled units back from front and attacked at both ends when i noticed the banshee The obs gets there at almost that exact moment and you still have the gas to warp in 3 stalkers with the warp prism.
I don't know if this has been added or suggested by anyone, but the build totally allows it and it doesnt affect any part of it other than giving you an obs
And again, thanks for this build Alej, you are truly a genius
Anyone still using this or have any new variations to mess around with?
Been working great at my level, just diamond. As I move out with the prism I generally start 2nd gas and a twilight council. Depending on how the attack goes and how much damage you do can followup with zealot/archon expo or go DTs if you hurt them enough and ur prism is still alive.
Not sure howh high this is still working but its damn fun while it does.
Uhhh so. Does this build work at all in PvP? In our CSL match, our ace Protoss did a very interesting version of this...
He manner blocked his own gas with a Cybercore, indicative of a 4 Gate since it's a 1 gas build. Opponent responded with Sentries to FF his ramp while teching, like usual. However, he used the WP to circumvent the sentries and dropped zealots in the mineral line.
Opponent went to counter attack with 3 stalkers, but didn't have the multitask to micro his stalkers vs zealots and deal with the drop, so he lost the game there. What do you think?
This was High Masters level play by both by the way.
On September 30 2011 11:30 Synystyr wrote: Uhhh so. Does this build work at all in PvP? In our CSL match, our ace Protoss did a very interesting version of this...
He manner blocked his own gas with a Cybercore, indicative of a 4 Gate since it's a 1 gas build. Opponent responded with Sentries to FF his ramp while teching, like usual. However, he used the WP to circumvent the sentries and dropped zealots in the mineral line.
Opponent went to counter attack with 3 stalkers, but didn't have the multitask to micro his stalkers vs zealots and deal with the drop, so he lost the game there. What do you think?
Now ive got something else to worry about when I try to do a 3 gate into tech opening O.O
On June 16 2011 22:53 Forbs wrote: I do a modified version of this build myself (I actually knocked out your teammate Murder in an IPL qual with it). I get 2 more probes, 2nd gate before the robo, 3rd pylon, 2 more gates, 2 more units off the 2 gates, 2 chronos on Warp Prism, then load up everything. The Warp Prism usually loads up right when my WG finishes since I don't spend that much chrono on WG.
Concerning this in PvP, you get into a base trade situation if you do this against an offensive 4 gate, so you aren't completely dead.
Nah you are dead. He has 6 stalkers and theres no way you can have any more than 4 on the first engagement if you warp in defensively, and you won't have the prism in his base until well after his push comes. Not to mention his wg will come ~20 seconds before yours because you got a robo and are expending 2 chronoboosts elsewhere
I've used it on a limited basis in PvP, but I'm low level so enemy 4gate just might have bad timing.
Personally I've found that you can stand a chance against more stalkers. If he wants to proxy and then warp in from there you can easily get his probe and then take down the pylon, if he's stupid he was going to warp in all his units from that pylon and it buys you at least the distance from your base to his.
If he's smart then he already has units out. I found that walling can slow the culling, and if you get the prism out faster (i.e. get robo before warp gate) then you use the zealot stalker zealot into his base, plus 3 stalkers one zealot, and then micro a little bit by putting wounded units into the prism. Warp prisms can tank stray stalker fire (not concentrated, but if that happens then just run away while dropping your wounded) and then just go from there. Take your second gas if needed, and it just turns into 4gate vs. 4gate with a small advantage to the enemy.
(Also because I just saw OP post a few above me (December post), yes that 100 shield points is magical)
On January 21 2012 15:42 RabidSeagull wrote: This build is still incredibly strong, always nice to have a good all-in build if you feel like 1basing it, nice guide as always, Alej.
thanks! yeah this build is from a long ways back when scrap station was in the ladder pool, but it is nice to have a very strong wild card such as this in a boX situation or just a crazy build to pull off on ladder ^^
On January 21 2012 15:42 RabidSeagull wrote: This build is still incredibly strong, always nice to have a good all-in build if you feel like 1basing it, nice guide as always, Alej.
thanks! yeah this build is from a long ways back when scrap station was in the ladder pool, but it is nice to have a very strong wild card such as this in a boX situation or just a crazy build to pull off on ladder ^^
Yeah man, I love you. Ever since I adopted your build I haven't lost a ladder match.
This build is great on Metal/Temple and even Shakuras. If the terran doesn't spawn close by air you can always proxy the robo in the base at that position. This works even better sometimes as you will have map control usually anyway with your stalkers and if the terran scans and you place your gates in different spots they will probably think 1 gate expo. And if they don't see the robo, but see the other gates they will make more bunkers in anticipation of a 4 gate, which is not the right response lol.
On January 21 2012 09:53 Alejandrisha wrote: http://drop.sc/95531 vs marauder expand close air metal
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I've been trying to better understand marauder expands. Is this what a marauder expand normally looks like? As in, 1 marauder -> reaper to control a tower and scout, marauder stays at home to allow lowgrounding of expo?
On January 21 2012 09:53 Alejandrisha wrote: http://drop.sc/95531 vs marauder expand close air metal
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I've been trying to better understand marauder expands. Is this what a marauder expand normally looks like? As in, 1 marauder -> reaper to control a tower and scout, marauder stays at home to allow lowgrounding of expo?
nope usually expand after 1 marauder and shells. haven only seen this reaper after marauder build a few times
not being close air by any stretch of the imagination, vines proxies the robo which is something i've done on cloud kingdom before.
spoiler: it failed pretty miserably because he warped in stalkers too early. if that was 8 zealots instead of a mix he can buy time for additional warp-ins. instead, he gets out some stalkers that don't do any damage and don't force any retreat to mitigate dps of the first T poke
EPT
Your zealot-stalker-zealot should fare well against 2 marauders and a marine, but you might want to pull a few probes just to be safe.![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-06-1602_18_18.jpg?t=1308205477)
![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-06-1602_18_23.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-06-1602_18_47.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-06-1602_22_19.jpg)
Now I'll just have to devise a way to stop this!![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-215547.jpg)
