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SKaREO
Canada58 Posts
On July 07 2011 07:51 travis wrote: 1.) it's harder to do stutter micro with the terran ball 2.) hellions are much worse than marines vs stalkers 3.) medivacs don't heal hellions 4.) infantry upgrades don't go to hellions in a vacuum they do a lot better | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
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PaleRider09
United States70 Posts
10/10. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
 heheHowever, I have trouble reconciling the idea that 1 gate into expand is "too greedy" and "should be punished." Given, I'm not a  or a  , however I feel it's similar to when some Zerg's would argue that fast expanding in ZvZ isn't viable (though as a FE ZvZ'er myself, ((Shh don't tell any other Zergs I may face, hehe, jk, no go ahead and tell em, I can make it work regardless. )) I know it can work, hard to learn at first, but with mastery, and patience, it can work), and should also, "be punished". Is this truly the case, in TvP, or is a 1 gate FE actually survivable as toss? My guess is the latter, that it may be tough micro and tight-timings, but I bet it can be made solid... In any case though, good guide, enjoyed the read and the work you put into this! Now to make a  deathball with more than 1-2 units... hehe | ||
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legend4411
Canada21 Posts
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bebe01
Korea (South)512 Posts
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Gravityshift
Sweden5 Posts
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skunk_works
United States109 Posts
thanks a ton | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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skunk_works
United States109 Posts
thanks again | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
And how do hellions "out-micro" stalkers? | ||
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skunk_works
United States109 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On July 05 2011 14:43 perser84 wrote: dude i hade a game vs toss who 30 min ago and i emp his entire army with emp but the problem is the ht were spread and had full engergy so my 3-4 emp hit perfect but you are still doomed because emp just take 100 engergy away and not the entire mana i mean its not impossbile but for terran is much harder to counter the caster unit then the caster unit cast storm or fungual to you he must only hit your army with the cast but you must aim only for the caster squad itself and that is not really easy It's harder for you to press a button and click (with a faster caster) than it is for him to press a button and click (omg wait let me float)? | ||
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cskalias.pbe
United States293 Posts
get 2 banshee and raven like normal (except this time with cloak) wait for pdd, then push with reactored marines, single fac hellion, raven and banshees. At worse, you have map control and can expand. At best, they don't have either underinvested in observers, or lost them to marine/raven and you can pick apart their pylons/ tech. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
because the hellions remove the most powerful part of the toss army (zealots) every TvP i see is the terran getting bent over by zealots all game imagine if a terran has 7 blueflame hellions instead of those 14 marines that got brought to 10% hp by a single storm those hellions would shred all those zealots so well. removing that one thing that is just so annoying for terran to deal with. even if the hellions had zero upgrades, they still deal 20 a shot to +3 armored zealots i think whats really making this strategy shine is the fact that he has blueflame hellions which kill all the zealots, which leaves stalkers left, and because stalkers are SO TERRIBLE AGAINST MARAUDERS as long as the protoss has no zealots it doesnt matter if its 50 stalkers vs 1 marauder id put my money on the terran (exaggeration but you get the picture) imo if you take any terran strategy that can remove zealots from the picture its going to be powerful, because what left for the toss is stalkers and stalkers suck | ||
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Adrenaline Seed
United States194 Posts
I am finding that while waiting for armory you have plenty of gas for a medivac and using the medivac to transport the Thor gives the Thor counter a chance. It also heals marines, and gives uphill sight if needed. I have had mixed results trying this, though it is usually due to control issues and not because the strategy does not work. Just an option for those of you who don't want to go into a macro game with a Toss that is slightly ahead from the start. | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
On July 07 2011 07:51 travis wrote: In my experience I love it when my opponent tries to add hellions into their army to fight my zealots. Especially once upgrades come into play. There are several reasons for this 1.) it's harder to do stutter micro with the terran ball 2.) hellions are much worse than marines vs stalkers 3.) medivacs don't heal hellions 4.) infantry upgrades don't go to hellions in a vacuum they do a lot better Hmm my experience really differs from yours and I play both terran and protoss at a fairly high level. 1. I have never had any trouble stutter micro'ing with hellions mixed in, but that's probably because I give them their own control group and usually have them to the side. 2. The purpose of the hellions is to add another layer of maneuverability, snipe templars, and to kill zealots. Besides, in an even fight, your marines are usually dead from storm/colossi before you can start attacking stalkers. 3. I'm sure that in a battle your medivacs will have more than enough units to heal. With regards to an "after the fight" scenario, its more likely that you have either traded your hellions for zealots, or they have sustained little damage. 4. Ok but from my experience, hellions do well enough to not care. + Show Spoiler + On July 06 2011 07:42 naventus wrote: 1) Hellion won't have armor upgrades, you will be taking +4, +6 from zeals, and +8, +12 from colossi. Scattering marines in concave is not magic or hard. Your units are clumped, and when you preconcave before fights, it's not that hard to make sure that your marines aren't all standing next to each other. All you are preventing is your 20 marines getting 3 shot at the start by all the colossi because you packed them next to each other. 2) Why are you factoring in GS? We are talking about chargelots, not only will they be way ahead of the army, you will also be kiting them back. Hellion: 21/2.5 = 8.4, vs armored 3.2 Marine: 5/.57 = 8.7 3) This guide is a guide of 1/2base allins. There's nothing here that represents a true macro game where you are trading production cycles. That's the entire flaw about hellions. Protoss can choose how he wants to mix up his composition from his 15 gates, but what are you going to do? Where are you going to get the time to set up 2-3 factories + get mech upgrades? If a protoss sends out a single templar, you stim 3 marauders and kill it. -- I'm no GM, but I have seen 0 success with hellions in the army at 1400 master. What has worked for me, and you can see Koreans doing this like MMA vs MC, or even Nada's games last night, is 1 reactor marines / base. Matching his zeal count with just 1 marine each is a huge DPS gain. Here's a tangential piece of evidence: go try unmicroed upped hellions vs upped zeals. Hellions actually lose. But unmicroed marines completely dominate the chargelots. 1. I believe that the lower AOE damage taken more than compensates for the lack of armour upgrades. 2. I'm not sure what types of protoss players you play if they don't keep their zealots under guardian shield for most of fights/use FF to get the zealots dealing dmg. The chargebuff allowed super high #s of zealots to beat small bio balls with a clicking super far away from the sentries, but if a good protoss player is engaging in similar army fights with the terran, those zealots need to be under guardian shield--especially in a colossi based army where the zealots are more for tanking than damage. 3. While the guide is for 1-2 base "all-ins," spreading misinformation like mixing hellions into bioballs sucks without having applied it in game at a high level is a bit less than ideal. I'm not too sure how the protoss would vary his composition against bio + blueflame off "15 gates." Fifteen games are implies that the Terran and protoss are at least on 4 bases with the protoss having been maxed for a while with excess money for gateways. Aka the terran sucks at tvp. Transitioning to hellions is easy. Terrans always have the factory lying around, and you really don't need more hellions than 1 reactor factory (tech lab > research > switch for a barracks etc). I'm not too sure how tech switching came in. Hmm... I don't think you've played very good protoss players if you think 3 marauders can snipe a Templar. That's 3 shots from the marauders in the face of blink stalkers. And even if successfully done, the marauders are still slower than the cheaper hellions. I don't mean offense, but I don't think at 1400 masters a player can micro a bio ball and hellions at the same time. This results in the hellions being simply grouped in the same control group as the bio ball which hinders their effectiveness. And while Korean players are amazing, I think its worth noting how young sc2 is and how strategies are so underdeveloped. This means that something like mixing BFH into a bioball may be incredibly effective and simply underutilized. Also, staging a fight without micro completely ignores the fact that hellions are the most mobile terran unit. That in and of itself has a pretty high value. | ||
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WiNdeL973
France4 Posts
Im Mid/High Master EU Here are my conclusions : Its very strong if the protoss player plays "old school", meaning his mix is stalkers sentrys collosus and some zealots. I won almost all of that kind of game when it was Terran deathball against Protoss deathball. But when i play against Zealots heavy High Templar, i lost every single game even against some crappy players. Dont know what to change in my composition but even with good emps, he can storm once or 2, then morph to archon. I can be far ahead in army, supply or eco, it dosnt change anything. Im thinking of going back to bioball since P are now doing more and more of this responce to tank : heavy zealots and HT, and i dont know what to do Sorry for my english. | ||
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humblegar
Norway883 Posts
I'm not going to discuss marines/helions and dps/viability and all that. But I still remember some of TLO's early games as terran, when he was struggling but managed to simply right-click his surviving helions into his opponents natural for a probetoast and gg  So remember the threat of BFH to simply end the game in addition to their role in a big fight. | ||
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AKimboJack
United States1 Post
Out of the 8 or so TvP's I have played, I have only lost one and that was because I moved out into a 3 gate robo timing and lost half my army. Other than that it's been super easy. Once again I thank you! | ||
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