EPT[G] Warden’s TvP 1:1:1 into "Terran Death Ball" - Page 14
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Raigeki
Hong Kong207 Posts
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Birnie
Taiwan5 Posts
I have the same question as OneManArmy. And i think you did not resolve it. The senario may be.. I scout the protoss does 3gate robo the safe build. Then i go Terran death ball. After i secure my nat and harrass and scout by banshees, i see 2-3 stalkers in the mineral line and also HTs. What will you react when you see HTs? I guess you will add some ghost in your army composition, and more medivacs as well. when the food count reaches around 120-150 at the time I wanna attack, with my terarn death ball, composed of marauders, marines, few hellions, 2-3 ghosts, 5-6 tanks, 1 raven, 2banshees, 3-4 medivac or more. I meet the protoss army with losts of chargelots, less than 8 stalkers, 8-10 HTs, 2-3 sentries. Well, EMPs do absorb energys from some HTs, but he still attacks me with 2-3storms and crushes my MMM ball by his 2 armed chargelots. After storms, he fuses all HTs into Archons and my tanks are all detroyed without even killing one Archon. In the terran death ball, my raven does little effect. PDDs just deal with those few stalkers which soon vanish in my tanks fire. Two banshees do some help but not much. MMM ball can kite his chargelots, right? but in the death ball, tanks are the main DPS. You kite. you lose your tanks once your MMM leave the position between chargelots and tanks. and MMM though survive but Archons own them all. I think, surely, I have to change my death ball composition. But how? What will you react as you see the protoss go chargelots and HTs then archons? The problem is: You've seen his army with lots chargelots and HTs or is going thay way. What will you do next? Thanks Warden. I love you 111 opening guide. It really improves my understanding of protoss's opening so that I can defend them pretty well. One more question. I find that it's not easy to hold 4gate push in Tel'darim LE because at the choke between your main and nat. You don't have the high ground advantage. At6:00, siege mode is not finished yet if you pop one tank and then siege mode and then the second. 4SCV auto repair does not hold the target firing from stalkers and zealots at one bunker, but with high ground advantage, 4SCV might be enough for it. What will you do? 1.Do not use warden's build or any 111 opening in no-high-ground ramp map? and what is your suggestion for opening? 2.more SCVs? I do not think this is a good idea, cause the more time he pressues you in the front line, you lose more in economy. 3. siege mode first? I am not sure if it works well. Pop one viking and siege mode first might get you chance to scare them away, but do you think this is good idea? 4. To defend 4BG at the high ground at Nat or the choke at Nat will be better? but I do not think so... Thanks for all your effort and reply. | ||
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jdsowa
405 Posts
I'm a zerg player and it's is the best stream I've ever come across. Very insightful commentary as he plays, and no obnoxious music in the background. | ||
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
Unless you take a quick second base, and the 1/1/1 with Siege Tanks just does not do that for me. | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
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DustinQQ
United States69 Posts
On June 27 2011 18:47 Birnie wrote: So good to see Warden youself answer questions. I have the same question as OneManArmy. And i think you did not resolve it. The senario may be.. I scout the protoss does 3gate robo the safe build. Then i go Terran death ball. After i secure my nat and harrass and scout by banshees, i see 2-3 stalkers in the mineral line and also HTs. What will you react when you see HTs? I guess you will add some ghost in your army composition, and more medivacs as well. when the food count reaches around 120-150 at the time I wanna attack, with my terarn death ball, composed of marauders, marines, few hellions, 2-3 ghosts, 5-6 tanks, 1 raven, 2banshees, 3-4 medivac or more. I meet the protoss army with losts of chargelots, less than 8 stalkers, 8-10 HTs, 2-3 sentries. Well, EMPs do absorb energys from some HTs, but he still attacks me with 2-3storms and crushes my MMM ball by his 2 armed chargelots. After storms, he fuses all HTs into Archons and my tanks are all detroyed without even killing one Archon. In the terran death ball, my raven does little effect. PDDs just deal with those few stalkers which soon vanish in my tanks fire. Two banshees do some help but not much. MMM ball can kite his chargelots, right? but in the death ball, tanks are the main DPS. You kite. you lose your tanks once your MMM leave the position between chargelots and tanks. and MMM though survive but Archons own them all. I think, surely, I have to change my death ball composition. But how? What will you react as you see the protoss go chargelots and HTs then archons? The problem is: You've seen his army with lots chargelots and HTs or is going thay way. What will you do next? Thanks Warden. I love you 111 opening guide. It really improves my understanding of protoss's opening so that I can defend them pretty well. One more question. I find that it's not easy to hold 4gate push in Tel'darim LE because at the choke between your main and nat. You don't have the high ground advantage. At6:00, siege mode is not finished yet if you pop one tank and then siege mode and then the second. 4SCV auto repair does not hold the target firing from stalkers and zealots at one bunker, but with high ground advantage, 4SCV might be enough for it. What will you do? 1.Do not use warden's build or any 111 opening in no-high-ground ramp map? and what is your suggestion for opening? 2.more SCVs? I do not think this is a good idea, cause the more time he pressues you in the front line, you lose more in economy. 3. siege mode first? I am not sure if it works well. Pop one viking and siege mode first might get you chance to scare them away, but do you think this is good idea? 4. To defend 4BG at the high ground at Nat or the choke at Nat will be better? but I do not think so... Thanks for all your effort and reply. if you scout chargelot/HT heavy, you make more BF hellions + ghosts. don't make as many tanks as tanks don't do so well against chargelot. you have to react to what your opponent is doing. this 1-1-1 is versatile for that very reason. this terran deathball isn't a all-in-one deathball, you have to adjust accordingly. | ||
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Tsuki.eu
Portugal1049 Posts
(i specially liked the all in options according to the scouting, im bored of playing macro bio:p) | ||
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naventus
United States1338 Posts
111 is allin. There's no way to catch up to a good protoss player if your timing attack doesn't work. He will be so ahead in infrastructure, in his upgrades, gate count etc. It is suicide to try to switch back to bio, you will just be extraordinarily behind. His standard composition simply crushes your port/tank army. It's only when he doesn't have the upgrades, doesn't have the tech, doesn't have the unit count, that port/tank shines. The transitions are mech or mass air. While mech or air are inferior to bio, and eventually outmuscled by protoss, you won't be as behind in upgrades. Instead of waiting for stim, meds, combat shields, AND being behind in attack/armor, you only need to throw down the production facilities. Any map where 2 base is strong, these transitions will be viable. Bio does have problems with open naturals, so this sort of play may be very good for that sort of map. EDIT: Changed my mind about mech. It's too inconsistent against certain compositions, should just go for mass port + marines. | ||
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berimbau
Australia22 Posts
If they stayed and tried to play it out, would you just push them after you broke their attack, or would you expand and go for terran death ball or something else? | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
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bylex
Brazil27 Posts
On June 29 2011 10:35 naventus wrote: Played a number of games with this. 111 is allin. There's no way to catch up to a good protoss player if your timing attack doesn't work. He will be so ahead in infrastructure, in his upgrades, gate count etc. It is suicide to try to switch back to bio, you will just be extraordinarily behind. His standard composition simply crushes your port/tank army. It's only when he doesn't have the upgrades, doesn't have the tech, doesn't have the unit count, that port/tank shines. The transitions are mech or mass air. While mech or air are inferior to bio, and eventually outmuscled by protoss, you won't be as behind in upgrades. Instead of waiting for stim, meds, combat shields, AND being behind in attack/armor, you only need to throw down the production facilities. Any map where 2 base is strong, these transitions will be viable. Bio does have problems with open naturals, so this sort of play may be very good for that sort of map. EDIT: Changed my mind about mech. It's too inconsistent against certain compositions, should just go for mass port + marines. 1-1-1 is Allin? I don't understand you. I've played about 15 games with this strategy, and with proper information and harass, I was able to hold and beat many unit compositions by making good use of the versatility of this build and just putting down the correct follow-up based on what I scout. I think the basic dynamics of this build is about scouting, harassing, and scouting-harasing, every 1 minute of the game so you can keep up the correct unit composition and dictate the pace of the matchup. I think the "switch back" to bio is kind of irrelevant: you aren't "switching" back to nothing, because you didn't commit to nothing in the first place. The opening gives you many options to chose from, sinergizing with terran's add-on switching. I think the idea behind the deathball is exactly to not commit yourself, keeping a balanced composition of almost all unit types, changing their numbers as you see fit. Having medivacs, vikings, banshees, ravens, tanks, helions and bio on the board can do wonders if you know where, when and how to use them, alone (harass,drops), or in a group (defending, pushing). I'm sure this build has its flaws, as all do, but I just see the terrans shining so much more when they make full use of their versatility. | ||
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naventus
United States1338 Posts
Any biomech composition is directly inferior to bio ghost against P in the long term. Is there a single game in that replay pack where there is a true 3-4 base macro game? No, they are all 1-2 base allins. | ||
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bylex
Brazil27 Posts
Why would anyone want to extend the game to a macro 3-4 game? If it does come to that, then many adaptions will have been made to deal with long term macro battles. Sorry but I just fail to see how MMM Ghost is so superior than this late game... Cheers. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
think about it, you can open up reactor marines and still get out tons of marines by the time a voidray rush hits, then you get factory and can get out a siege mode tank before 4gate hits then, you can make a command center instead of a starport, and this CC should come at a time where if you scout your enemy fast expanded you can simply build another and you know since your enemy fast expanded he cannot hit you with a a strong 9 minutes gateway attack that your tanks cannot beat so, this 1-1-cc-1 build should always build a fairly fast CC right after rax/fact HOWEVER that cc is still slower than huks 20food FE 4gate SO, by the 6.5 minute mark you wanna scout to see if your enemy fast expanded. if you see the enemy expansion done at 6.5 minutes with mining happening it means he already did the 20food huk FE 4gate. when you see your enemy fast expanded super fast, you STOP unit production (because your marines/tanks you have right now can beat his 9 minute attack no matter what it is) and quickly make a starport then another CC. the starport goes onto the reactor and makes a raven. why? because even though he fast expanded it could still be a DT expand, and because of that you wanna get your raven out by 9 minutes. SO, if you scout the enemy went huks 20food FE 4gate, you should scout it by 6:30, and once you do scout it make a starport and a third command center you should have the money to do that because you stopped unit production at 6.5 minutes and you also are using all your energy on mules (no scans) i believe that right there should put you on even economy with a FE toss, and still get a raven out in time to be safe against DT's | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
On June 30 2011 05:06 naventus wrote: You have no clue what you are talking about, mixed army != strong army; composition response != strategy response. If P survives your push and has his gateway infrastructure + tech + earlier expo, you are dead. He will outmacro you, outmuscle you, and just run you over. Any biomech composition is directly inferior to bio ghost against P in the long term. Is there a single game in that replay pack where there is a true 3-4 base macro game? No, they are all 1-2 base allins. Well thats logical bc you cant get and keep a macro advantage with tech play as terran and tech as terran is simply underpowerd in longterm focus. Hence why if you do a 1/1/1 tech build you will have to go allin on a specific timing to maximise the effiency of your tech units. There is no way you can reinforce your tankforce fast enough, nor rebuild the raven, nor keep up with upgrades and substaining your bio force in a macro game. This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 30 2011 07:31 4Servy wrote: Well thats logical bc you cant get and keep a macro advantage with tech play as terran and tech as terran is simply underpowerd in longterm focus. Hence why if you do a 1/1/1 tech build you will have to go allin on a specific timing to maximise the effiency of your tech units. There is no way you can reinforce your tankforce fast enough, nor rebuild the raven, nor keep up with upgrades and substaining your bio force in a macro game. This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace. ive done testing in the unit tester and lots of thors + a few vikings + plenty blue flame hellions + EMP + some marines will be pretty good against gateway+storm+archon+collossi+immortal armies it seems like you only wanna have a few tanks, 3 tops maybe 4 if you are super risky, and the realy power unit is the thor. as long you emp imortals, thors destroy everything except the collossi, and a few vikings and sieged tanks left over stop the collossi from being too thratening the MAIN PROBLEM with 1-1-1 mech builds is that the protoss expands faster, and thus has a larger army. which is why i suggest maybe working on some kind of 1-1-cc-1 build that still gets a raven fast enough to be safe against DT expands, but still also gets a fairly fast CC | ||
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naventus
United States1338 Posts
On June 30 2011 07:31 4Servy wrote: Well thats logical bc you cant get and keep a macro advantage with tech play as terran and tech as terran is simply underpowerd in longterm focus. Hence why if you do a 1/1/1 tech build you will have to go allin on a specific timing to maximise the effiency of your tech units. There is no way you can reinforce your tankforce fast enough, nor rebuild the raven, nor keep up with upgrades and substaining your bio force in a macro game. This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace. I agree, that's exactly what I'm saying, this is allin by construction. If you sit down and think about it for a bit, it should be extremely obvious that if you lose any major fight, you won't have the correct infrastructure to get back. You either win on 1-2 base, or you lose the game against a competent player. The other dude and the OP too keep blathering on about how this is adaptable, though, when it's not. The only thing is sort of does is adapt to 1 base P play. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 30 2011 07:43 naventus wrote: I agree, that's exactly what I'm saying, this is allin by construction. If you sit down and think about it for a bit, it should be extremely obvious that if you lose any major fight, you won't have the correct infrastructure to get back. You either win on 1-2 base, or you lose the game against a competent player. The other dude and the OP too keep blathering on about how this is adaptable, though, when it's not. The only thing is sort of does is adapt to 1 base P play. what do you think about my idea of turning this build into some kind of 1-1-1 build that gets a CC before the starport do you think something like that could be viable? | ||
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naventus
United States1338 Posts
First, you will be skipping the second gas to get the CC. This decision would have to be made with only one piece of information: is P 1gas or 2gas. T not having 2 gas kills any chance of doing damage with cloak, or an early raven to stock energy. If you use marine tank defense, you are susceptible auto loss against phoenix. And on any map with a tight ramp, FF will contain you. So by the time you push out to your natural what time is it? 9m? 10m? P will have had his expansion running for 2m by that time. A greedier build, provided you scouted it, might even have had it running for 4m. So you float down, and now what? You need to trade your army against his ASAP before his tech kicks in. But you also invested 400 into a CC for 200minerals more / min, when the core units in your push are gas based. So you basically neuter your own push options with the CC, and then play catchup. -- Dropping a CC on moveout is not terrible because you actually float on minerals with this build. More gas means a stronger followup, but again, I don't see a bio followup working. Mass air makes sense to me since it's on a separate tech from the typical P techs. Sometimes it might even be better to save scans instead for helping with picking off observer/finding P army. Minerals are just not important. | ||
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bylex
Brazil27 Posts
We do skip this as a reaction to what toss is making, but only and only if... 4Servy and naven..I mean, the other guy: I think I understand where you are going with the arguments now, and "This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace." makes alot of sense, but I think here is where our communication failed. The difference between our thinking-process is I'm treating this as an opening, and an opening only, meaning I just like how the units playout until early midgame. After EXPO I see nothing that stops me from dropping 2-3 more barracks and pump a more bio concentrated army, with the support of a few tanks, banshees (if any left, once more I see no need for replacing them, as they act as harassment tools), ravens, medivacs. After all, we will make a starport sometime in the game right? So this can easily switch to a a very solid 1 fac, 1 -2sp , 3-6 rax late game compostion. My point beeing: I fail to see how this 1-1-1 opening STOPS me from beeing able to followup with mass barracks, or whatever you biolovers enjoy. Cheers. | ||
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