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On June 05 2011 20:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 20:28 rmAmnesiac wrote:
if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building. I'm wondering if it ever might be worth it to get 3 Ebay when you get 3 base.
My point exactly. When I get my third in TvZ I get range for turrets + PF, and armor, because I simcity around my PF with 2-3 ebays, to stop any and ALL baneling/sling run by or surrounds. Leaves me with about 4-5 ebays, gotta use em =P
While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade?
lol again, every TvZ I get this. Only because I 1-1-1 marine hellion elevator with a banshee cloak follow up, and then as I push, I keep my starport with a tech lab for that upgrade, until I need to swap onto a reactor later for more medics.
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I like to use HiSec and Armor when I can remember to get them, especially vs Z
The additional armor and range for turrets helps a LOT when dealing with mutas, especially armor
Armor increases survivability, and range decreases the amount of turrets you need to build to cover your production facilities and mineral line. IMO range isn't as useful if you aren't using ravens tho
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On June 05 2011 18:34 eYeball wrote:
You forgot about Select, he also get's these upgrades.
Select has got one of these upgrades, in one game. Ever
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Seems like a good idea, I've never thought of using those upgrades cause I prefer the weapons and armor upgrades, but getting building armor and Hi-sec auto tracking can really really really help vs mutas mid-late game in TvZ where zerg has like 20+ mutas
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I was working on a 1 rax fe build in tvz that leads into a hardcore tank bunker stim push with the building armour and bunker upgrade. It works well when the zergs haven't spread there creep far enough.
I like the upgrades.
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The only purpose i see for these building armor/ hisec auto tracking upgrades is for sneak expansions that are on the other side of the map which is already bad play to begin with.
Why you shouldnt get these upgrades?
-Because muta harrass can be stopped perfectly without these upgrades... therefor it would be a waste of money, contributing to a loss rather than a win.
-Time can be better spent on getting weapons/armor upgrades
Your point made me laugh about PFs being immune to a zergling rush, in what kind of game would you see a zerg player rushing a planetary with zerglings... Just GG already, LOL
To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
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On June 06 2011 02:53 Clonze wrote:
The only purpose i see for these building armor/ hisec auto tracking upgrades is for sneak expansions that are on the other side of the map which is already bad play to begin with.
Why you shouldnt get these upgrades?
-Because muta harrass can be stopped perfectly without these upgrades... therefor it would be a waste of money, contributing to a loss rather than a win.
-Time can be better spent on getting weapons/armor upgrades
Your point made me laugh about PFs being immune to a zergling rush, in what kind of game would you see a zerg player rushing a planetary with zerglings... Just GG already, LOL
To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
Sadly, not every zerg goes mutas. Roaches do happen. Take away 5 attack, opposed to 3 per roach means I can mass repair my PF until my army gets there to stop him.
Not has it happened once, but practically every TvZ where they go roach do I get hit at my expo with a sling surround on the PF to stop repair + roach focus fire.
You all are all so funny. I wonder how many actually play terran, and at a decent level. It helps armor upgrades to buy MORE time. Not make more turrets, but it buys you more time to decide to hit, or to defend your shit. Leaves time to set up a dropship with a thor to drop on high ground and lay a round or two into a ball, etc.
And again -- I get them all the time in TvZ, and I'd say I'm about 75% win percent in TvZ on both NA and EU.
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I actually really like the building armor upgrade, especially against zerg. Pairing it with the range upgrade just seems natural. I've had pretty good experience with using them in games.
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On June 06 2011 02:53 Clonze wrote:
To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
It's ok to have your own views. I take umbrage to statements like these that are just plain false. Earning money depends on your buildings surviving an attack. The same for producing units. If you can make those buildings harder to kill then they have contributed towards winning.
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To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
....lol
Okay, then think of this. 25-30 roaches blasting on a PF will kill it. Regardless of upgrade. However, without +2 armor, I can't get to it to kill his army/save my expo.
With +2? yes. I can get in an EPIC flank because I have to come from behind, as the PF WITH SPLASH hits from the front, being repaired.
Even if I don't say my 3rd(or just expo) then I take out MUCH more in minerals from my enemy in the army count. Therefore, by it living longer, it gets to shoot MANY more times and do some solid splash damage. They have to find a spot for infestors, if there are any. From behind is my army, and side is my PF. Hard to place them safely.
Ever do slow tank bunker pushes vs zerg on same side maps? Like DQ? Typhon? Try getting upgrade on armor, and see how well that roach sling bling can bust out now.
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Some of you guys just really hate any new thinking. No one is saying that these will win a game by itself. But over the course of the game, extra volleys on mutas count. Ever mass repair a turret against mutas only to have it blow up? Well what if you had extra armor? Is it worth delaying an infranty upgrade? Probably not. Is it worth having one less rax to remax? One less ghost? Maybe...
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i like this idea. gonna try to use turret upgrade+armor because it will deter zergs from making as many mutas causing a lot of wasted resources on the harass designed mutas. if they keep making mutas they wont be effective cause mutas that dont harass suck. i like the idea very much.
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Terran would have a lot easier time defending those protoss timings with bunkers if they had the armor upgrade.
However we need to test if a weapons upgrade wouldn't yield similar results...Research time is precious afterall.
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On June 06 2011 05:26 Sloth96 wrote:
i like this idea. gonna try to use turret upgrade+armor because it will deter zergs from making as many mutas causing a lot of wasted resources on the harass designed mutas. if they keep making mutas they wont be effective cause mutas that dont harass suck. i like the idea very much.
Yeah as a zerg player I only scratch my head super super hard when I got mass mutas and they don't get any of these upgrades.
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On June 05 2011 14:32 LaiShin wrote:
When terran infantry is at 3/3 or even 2/2, zerg will stop getting mutas. For the sole reason that muta upgrades will never be able to keep up with infantry's, due to their ground upgrades. At most, it's at 2/0.
In games where you have to rely on the armor and range upgrades to survive the muta packs, you have already lost the game.
Wrong.
That would actually imply mutas job and purpose is to attack marines and mauraders. Their job is to kill drops, stop terran expanding, and harass the hell out of every undefended terran building. A properly playing Zerg should never let his mutas fight marines. There is a reason why only attack is upgraded over armor, mutas aren't supposed to be shot at (although not the only reason.)
The real reason is by the time terran is 3/3, zerg has hive. Unless their muta ball is still alive, turret range isn't needed and a smart zerg will actually sacrafice his mutas for dmg to free up supply for the game ending 8 ultralisks or broodlords.
Simply put, its too late in the game for range to have an effect when gas is at a premium(ghosts) and mutas are out of the picture(hive). Plus turrets are still outranged by broodlords even with the upgrade.
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On June 06 2011 01:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 20:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:On June 05 2011 20:28 rmAmnesiac wrote:
if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building. I'm wondering if it ever might be worth it to get 3 Ebay when you get 3 base. My point exactly. When I get my third in TvZ I get range for turrets + PF, and armor, because I simcity around my PF with 2-3 ebays, to stop any and ALL baneling/sling run by or surrounds. Leaves me with about 4-5 ebays, gotta use em =P Show nested quote +While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade? lol again, every TvZ I get this. Only because I 1-1-1 marine hellion elevator with a banshee cloak follow up, and then as I push, I keep my starport with a tech lab for that upgrade, until I need to swap onto a reactor later for more medics.
When I go tech-lab port, I get energy. People don't believe me but TvZ isn't about a infinite stim like TvP neither is it about defending against DPS from the Terran POV. Its about preventing Zerg burst from landing on the marines and making sure you have enough marines standing in the aftermath. Neither will you be rushing for position like TvP or TvT..
Aleast that is the standardish bio-mech. You're going to do most of your healing before or after battle.
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I've been getting building armor for a long, long time. It is, in my opinion, the most underrated upgrade in the game.
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Also building armor helps in base trades. Going to start getting it after 3/3 in TvT where I go bio. Don't need the extra gas anyway...
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Just rather be spending my resources on any thing else.
By the time they are finished and useful you've already started your big scary push. And Mutalisk harassment is just that unless they have made a lot than that will make your push easier.
TL;DR does not suit the metagame preferences for most and getting them just wastes time.
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Considering how he did in mlg i wouldnt put much faith in his strategies.
With that aside though, i think high sec auto tracking can be really useful for sure especially if yoour PF'ing it up, i was thinking about it against protoss because alot of times protoss will put a stalker behind the mineral line to hit scv's i think the PF would beable to hit the stalker with high sec.
Durable materials is decent for TVZ but i dont think its a necessity unless the zerg is playing the counter attack /drop / nydus game, it can give you alot of extra time to get back to your base without losing too many key structures.
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EPT
