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For those who don't know, Gretorp is one of the very few pro Terrans (probably the only one) that get these upgrades:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 range to auto turrets, missle turrets, pdd, and planetary fortress)
Building Armor (+2 armor to all buildings)
Neosteel Frame (Increase load size for bunker, planetary, and command center)
I've always never quite understood why, and was wondering why more terrans don't get these upgrades?
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard, and can make 2 missle turrets completely deadly, especially with building armor.
Building Armor pretty much makes planetary invulnerable to any mass ling rush, and any muta harass.
Neosteel Frame pretty much allows mass bunker defense to be SUPER SUPER effective against both zerg and protoss, in combination w/ building armor this seems like a very very strong defense.
The only real reason I can see these upgrades not being used is simply because getting the +attack +armor upgrades are more important, but even when terrans are 3/3 they don't get these upgrades. I feel that the small investment into these upgrades can significantly alter terrans ability to push out without having to worry about any type of Muta harras, and their ability to crunch down on important offensive choke points.
What are your thoughts?
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Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless.
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On June 05 2011 13:30 superbabosheki wrote:
Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless.
Even Meching terran rarely get turret range, even in pro play. The only people I've seen getting it was Select against Idra in the recent MLG match, and Gretorp. It effectively just shut down Idra's muta harass pretty hard, but Select still got stomped. I'm just surprised we don't see these upgrades more often.
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turret range isnt that rare
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On June 05 2011 13:32 Warrice wrote:
turret range isnt that rare
But its rarely paired w/ building armor. That's the thing that bugs me, cause even w/ +1 range turrets can still be sniped fairly quickly by a swarm of mutas, however the +2 building armor pretty much allows them to take WAY WAY more damage.
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Engineering bays are tight on time for bio upgrades with bio, and mech is tight on gas. I mean, hey, why doesn't terran just get all this stuff that costs gas? Well that's great. We don't have anything to spare. Werp. Forgive my attitude.
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I got Hi-Sec Auto Tracking by accident once...
The range actually does make a huge difference. I don't budget my moneys enough to get it in a normal game though.
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@ Mnijkymirl
Like someone said earlier even at 3/3 rarely terrans get these upgrades.
And in the late game a couple or maruaders/marines are a small price to pay for +2armor +1 range ect.
And I don't even play terran. Lol.
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In tvt I always get hisec auto tracking when I go mech. In the other matchups usually I would rather have attack/armor upgrades instead of researching those.
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On June 05 2011 13:34 wei2coolman wrote:But its rarely paired w/ building armor. That's the thing that bugs me, cause even w/ +1 range turrets can still be sniped fairly quickly by a swarm of mutas, however the +2 building armor pretty much allows them to take WAY WAY more damage.
Turret range researches about twice as fast as building armor and is also 50/50 cheaper, meaning it clogs up less in terms of bio upgrades (or takes up less gas when meching). It's useful since it gives 3 range mutas even less room to work with and turrets are needed to defend given the thor's speed.
Building armor I feel is superfluous. If you have 2 turrets in the mineral line, you can just have scvs repair turrets under attack. If your opponents have enough mutas to brute force your turrets, you probably shouldn't count on building armor to save your ass. If you really need to defend against mass mutas, might as well buy a 300/200 thor and leave it in base instead of 150/150 armor + 2 turrets.
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99% of the time Terrans are going for bio upgrades first and by the time you get all your bio upgrades often time the zerg has moved on from muta's which is the only real reason to get hi sec. It is useful for mech but I think zergs are starting to realize how hard infesters counter mech so they are going more for them. In the Idra select game he started to get mutas and when he seen that Select was going to stick to going mech he almost completely switched into infesters with neural parasite.
So its just one of those upgrades that by the time you want to use it, the zerg isn't even using the unit its good for. But I do agree that there is really no reason to not have building armor.
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I get everyone of them except for Bunker upgrade. That ones totally useless since bunkers become pretty obsolete after the early to mid game.
The other ones help alot against Muta Harass, and Mech style play with PFs, and with slow pushing with turrets. Their not something i rush for, but that i consider when i have the money to do so. Though In TvT i've been opting to get Turret range because banshees piss me off.
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I think he does have a point.... I mean against a player like julyzerg, possibly getting turret range, and building armor would be EXTREMELY good considering he is so ling, bane, and muta heavy and relies on throwing units at you (once he is 2-3 bases) until you lose focus and get overrun, and maybe to defeat something like this, would require just turtling hardcore until you get 3-4 bases and a 200/200 army and can resupply decently, then push out. Especially in the lower leagues and even in pro matches sometimes on maps like xel naga where the zerg at times crashes 30 banes into the pf right as you are taking the gold, building armor could be extremely beneficial as well.
Bunker upgrade, I think I only seen it in one pro match effectively, and maybe it will be used more in the future as the game develops even more. It could be useful on maps like tal darim in extreme late game where terran is expanding nicely and the match is at 200/200, they could throw down some pfs and bunkers and that would help with the slow resupply problem, and to not be overrun by the speedy reinforcements on z and p.
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these upgrades are designed for defensive usage and you dont want to stay defensive in a game for long unless you are in some special situation.
out of all 3, the most commonthing you could see is turret range since in PvZ T need a tons of turrets and PF to defends vs counter attack, the rest of them are not as useful at all.
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On June 05 2011 13:49 Lewan72 wrote:
@ Mnijkymirl
Like someone said earlier even at 3/3 rarely terrans get these upgrades.
And in the late game a couple or maruaders/marines are a small price to pay for +2armor +1 range ect.
And I don't even play terran. Lol.
When terran infantry is at 3/3 or even 2/2, zerg will stop getting mutas. For the sole reason that muta upgrades will never be able to keep up with infantry's, due to their ground upgrades. At most, it's at 2/0.
In games where you have to rely on the armor and range upgrades to survive the muta packs, you have already lost the game.
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Also does detection range increase with that upgrade or is it only for shooting range on pfs and turrets???
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On June 05 2011 14:23 NB wrote:
these upgrades are designed for defensive usage and you dont want to stay defensive in a game for long unless you are in some special situation.
out of all 3, the most commonthing you could see is turret range since in PvZ T need a tons of turrets and PF to defends vs counter attack, the rest of them are not as useful at all.
Building armor makes it so lings do about 1 damage to planetary fortresses, and makes muta harass much less effective.
The upgrades don't make you defensive. In mech play or even marine/tank TvZ, it's about slowly pushing and getting into good positions slowly. Turrets help when you have to run your marine around, building 1-2 can help you fortify your position and prevent muta harass when your marines move around.
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I get range and armor every game, usually once 2/2 is done, or 1/1 is done and I forgot to get an armory.
Usually by the time I'm taking my third, which is 95% of the time a PF, I like to have the +2 armor JUST to make it that much harder to bring down. They really have to commit into killing it, giving me the option to flank, sack, or go attack.
Turret upgrade I get vs muta players, always. That extra shot or two is money to me.
I mean, I'm not near gretorps level, but I'm 1.3k masters at least.
Also does detection range increase with that upgrade or is it only for shooting range on pfs and turrets???
Detection range is 9, I believe. It doesn't change. Just gives PF range and turrets range.
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You guys are really stretching. If you don't have a strategy designed around these upgrades, you shouldn't get them.
Edit: Also, a PF is so strong that 99% of the time they will not attack it anyway. The additional armor is trivial
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On June 05 2011 14:53 Halcyondaze wrote:
You guys are really stretching. If you don't have a strategy designed around these upgrades, you shouldn't get them.
Edit: Also, a PF is so strong that 99% of the time they will not attack it anyway. The additional armor is trivial
You'd be surprised how fast 25 mutas kill a PF....
You don't necessarily need to design a strategy around these upgrades. You just try and squeeze them in there. I think its really good in mid game to late game, really prevents any shenanigans, and you can do the whole Big ol' ball of units, and straight up fight a zerg army. From what I'm seeing in the pro games, a lot of zergs are harassing, and doing serious side damage to Terran. All this damage accumalates and you can tell that the final stand the Terrans do against Zergs simply get CRUSHED. But what if Terran was able to get the perfect army comp, and do a 1 punch KO attack to Zergs?
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