EPTthe feeling you get when the "regular" number of banelings roll in to try to snipe a planetary, only to realize that it didn't go down because of the added armor is wonderful. i think in the current meta it throws your opponents off as well because players may think they have enough to take down buildings like a planetary and become confused as to why it seems so much stronger, since not many terrans use the armor upgrade.
[D] The "Gretorp" upgrades. - Page 3
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SolidSnoopy
United States21 Posts
the feeling you get when the "regular" number of banelings roll in to try to snipe a planetary, only to realize that it didn't go down because of the added armor is wonderful. i think in the current meta it throws your opponents off as well because players may think they have enough to take down buildings like a planetary and become confused as to why it seems so much stronger, since not many terrans use the armor upgrade. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Unwardil
Canada188 Posts
If it did something else as well like, oh, for instance, decreased bunker build time by 15 seconds allowing you to move out to a forward siege position and get defensive bunkers up around your tanks that little bit faster or if it did the campaign upgrade you could buy which would further increase the range of garrisoned units by 1, that would be pretty damn awesome and well worth the, what is it 150 150? But all it does is give your marines a bigger hole to go die to banelings in. You build bunkers to protect your marines from banelings so that the marines can protect your tanks from lings and mutas. If you put 6 marines in a bunker, that means that when the bunker gets busted, you lose 2 more marines to the same number of banelings. It's actually counter productive to have more units in there a lot of the time. | ||
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MarcH
United Kingdom362 Posts
The thing about this is you tend to encourage a ton of banelings anyway so +3 armour on marines doesn't do much then so id spent the time getting these upgrades just to make my position stronger. However I tend to run 2 engineering bays anyway so I get 3-3 quickly and then I may aswell continue the upgrades from them i tend to have the resources cos I am bad. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
On June 05 2011 15:13 0neder wrote: Incorrect. DPS per area taken up by units is important in this game. Bunker capacity upgrade boosts DPS per area while maintaining the benefits of a bunker. When you build a bunker, it is almost always better to put one marine rather than 4(or 6). I thought that was pretty obvious. Probably not in diamond league. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Turret range doesn't make your base invincible but it eliminates the little holes where mutas can fly and kill a depot or reactor for free. Everywhere the mutas go they are taking damage, and harass becomes less sustainable. It's also a very fast upgrade. | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
The +1 range for turrets always catches me off guard and I can tell when a terran has it. I'm very use to turrets having 7 range and I can skirt that range perfectly but when they're 8, I always will take a couple extra hits. That being said, by the time you probably would get +1 range (it's definitely not worth rushing to) I typically have a muta pack of 15+ and turrets getting one extra shot off before my muta's destroy them is not going to change anything. You still need marine/thor support or your base will be overrun and the +1 range is not going to help you there. +2 armor is probably worthwhile getting. It will take a couple of extra mutas to take down turret rings and it may buy a terran an extra secondish per turret to get over there with their marines/thors. Still though, when mutas get in critical mass, +2 isn't going to help turrets that much. Obviously though, +2 armor in general will make your whole base a little less susceptible to drops and what not. I don't know what the purpose of neosteel frames would be. The +2 armor to planetarys doesn't do anything since the only units +2 armor really does anything against (zerglings) are units you already don't engage a pf with. It's not going to stop banelings from rolling in, broodlords from destroying them, or really decrease roach damage by a worthy amount. Maybe having the +2 armor will allow reinforcements to arrive in time to stop mutas from destroying a pf, but that will only happen once every 20 games. The bunker space increase also really doesn't matter, just build more bunkers if you need, they only cost 25 minerals now. | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On June 05 2011 19:15 superbabosheki wrote: When you build a bunker, it is almost always better to put one marine rather than 4(or 6). I thought that was pretty obvious. Probably not in diamond league. sorry what? it is better to put one marine in a bunker..? | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On June 05 2011 20:28 rmAmnesiac wrote: if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building. I'm wondering if it ever might be worth it to get 3 Ebay when you get 3 base. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
i feel that this 'staging point' is eventually going to become essential for late-game terran, otherwise your army is too exposed and vulnerable when out on the map. you can literally insta-lose if you botch a single baneling trap or storm etc. once fortified with siege tanks and upgraded turret/bunkers, it's insanely cost efficient and almost impossible for enemy to break... | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
In particular, people don't appreciate armour upgrades enough. Again, I'll cite PvT as an example where +1 armour is going to be farrrr more effective than +1 attack in most cases (unless you are spamming colossi like no tomorrow) but because it's harder to notice the difference between no armour and +1 armour zealots than +1 attack and no attack zealots. Building armour against mutalisks should be mandatory. Mutalisks deal so little damage that building life increases dramatically with +2. With +2, mutalisks only deal 6 damage to buildings and their splash damage deals 1, then zero. In a raw comparison of # of hits, with no upgrade it takes 32 hits to kill a turret, with +2 that number jumps to 42. Say the Zerg had 9 mutalisks, that gives your turret an extra volley of mutalisk hits - and gives you that much more time to get home. But it doesn't stop there. Zergling counter attacks/harass are completely ineffective as (without upgrades) they deal 2 damage. lol. Banelings still are a problem obviously, as they deal such massive raw damage, but for the most part a muta/ling/bling zerg will find it much harder to attack your buildings. I've tried to convince nazgul of its worth, but afaik, it was difficult to fit in with the styles that were being played. However, I think that if you start making a habit of researching it every TvZ (at least) you'll find a good place for it. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
On June 05 2011 20:29 rmAmnesiac wrote: sorry what? it is better to put one marine in a bunker..? In TvZ you put a single marine in a bunker so that the Zerg unit AI's automatically attack it. If you have 4 marines in it, baneling splash will hit all of them as soon as the bunker goes down. In TvP it's pretty much the same deal since forcefields can isolate bunkers it is better to keep one unit inside and the others dealing damage behind it, so that you don't lose multiple units once it goes down. You see this mostly in high economy 2 base baneling busts and 2 base 5-6 gate pushes. In midgame timing attacks, usually with marine/tank, bunkers are used as more of a super combat shield upgrade for marines, where you leapfrog with them and only put one unit in it to draw in enemy units while kiting/microing with the rest. A lot of the GSL TvP/TvZ's on TalDarim showcased this type of push/bunker usage. | ||
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CptCutter
United Kingdom370 Posts
On June 05 2011 13:27 wei2coolman wrote: For those who don't know, Gretorp is one of the very few pro Terrans (probably the only one) that get these upgrades: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 range to auto turrets, missle turrets, pdd, and planetary fortress) Building Armor (+2 armor to all buildings) Neosteel Frame (Increase load size for bunker, planetary, and command center) I've always never quite understood why, and was wondering why more terrans don't get these upgrades? Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard, and can make 2 missle turrets completely deadly, especially with building armor. Building Armor pretty much makes planetary invulnerable to any mass ling rush, and any muta harass. Neosteel Frame pretty much allows mass bunker defense to be SUPER SUPER effective against both zerg and protoss, in combination w/ building armor this seems like a very very strong defense. The only real reason I can see these upgrades not being used is simply because getting the +attack +armor upgrades are more important, but even when terrans are 3/3 they don't get these upgrades. I feel that the small investment into these upgrades can significantly alter terrans ability to push out without having to worry about any type of Muta harras, and their ability to crunch down on important offensive choke points. What are your thoughts? i always get the building armour and range upgrades, i dont understand why your calling them the gretorp upgrades either (i know he said he used them on NASL but that doesnt warrant them to be named after him lol) | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On June 05 2011 20:46 Plexa wrote: +2 building armour is the gift that keeps on giving. But don't be surprised that no one gets it, for the most part upgrades are neglected at the pro level for reasons I don't understand. For example, it's taken the scene very long to realise getting 2 forges and spamming upgrades in PvT is HIGHLY effective - and even now upgrades are relegated to a secondary status to everything else. In particular, people don't appreciate armour upgrades enough. Again, I'll cite PvT as an example where +1 armour is going to be farrrr more effective than +1 attack in most cases (unless you are spamming colossi like no tomorrow) but because it's harder to notice the difference between no armour and +1 armour zealots than +1 attack and no attack zealots. Building armour against mutalisks should be mandatory. Mutalisks deal so little damage that building life increases dramatically with +2. With +2, mutalisks only deal 6 damage to buildings and their splash damage deals 1, then zero. In a raw comparison of # of hits, with no upgrade it takes 32 hits to kill a turret, with +2 that number jumps to 42. Say the Zerg had 9 mutalisks, that gives your turret an extra volley of mutalisk hits - and gives you that much more time to get home. But it doesn't stop there. Zergling counter attacks/harass are completely ineffective as (without upgrades) they deal 2 damage. lol. Banelings still are a problem obviously, as they deal such massive raw damage, but for the most part a muta/ling/bling zerg will find it much harder to attack your buildings. I've tried to convince nazgul of its worth, but afaik, it was difficult to fit in with the styles that were being played. However, I think that if you start making a habit of researching it every TvZ (at least) you'll find a good place for it. The difference between the Double Forge and Building Upgrades is that those are worked into a build and also offensively useful while Building Armor and to a lesser extent Hi-Sec are somewhat timing based. You get Double Forge to get to 3/3 faster while Building Armor and Hi-Sec don't unlock any additional upgrade tiers. I think the general response is 'oh I don't need to get it right now, I could instead get something else that's potentially more useful.' It would be cool to work at least building armor into a 8 minute timing off some of the standard openings. I could definitely see it on 2 rax/Reactor Rax (infact the Raven thing I did got it at the muta timing off 2 rax) since you don't get the armory as fast so you have some extra time. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 05 2011 21:08 Antisocialmunky wrote: Agreed, and that is exactly why it isn't used at the moment. It's difficult to actually tell whether the upgrade has been beneficial or not. I've looked at the numbers enough to know that you could work it in nicely to a build, but would only pay off if you know they are going muta.The difference between the Double Forge and Building Upgrades is that those are worked into a build and also offensively useful while Building Armor and to a lesser extent Hi-Sec are somewhat timing based. You get Double Forge to get to 3/3 faster while Building Armor and Hi-Sec don't unlock any additional upgrade tiers. I think the general response is 'oh I don't need to get it right now, I could instead get something else that's potentially more useful.' It would be cool to work at least building armor into a 8 minute timing off some of the standard openings. I could definitely see it on 2 rax/Reactor Rax (infact the Raven thing I did got it at the muta timing off 2 rax) since you don't get the armory as fast so you have some extra time. | ||
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On June 05 2011 20:49 ZeromuS wrote: neosteel to me seems really cool if you put 2 scvs inside the bunker to repair it from within instead of trying to repair it from outside. Forcefields wont stop you ever that way :D Are you certain that this is possible? I don't think so at least - I know that SCVs can repair other units loaded into the same vehicle as them, but the vehicle itself? | ||
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