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For those who don't know, Gretorp is one of the very few pro Terrans (probably the only one) that get these upgrades:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 range to auto turrets, missle turrets, pdd, and planetary fortress)
Building Armor (+2 armor to all buildings)
Neosteel Frame (Increase load size for bunker, planetary, and command center)
I've always never quite understood why, and was wondering why more terrans don't get these upgrades?
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard, and can make 2 missle turrets completely deadly, especially with building armor.
Building Armor pretty much makes planetary invulnerable to any mass ling rush, and any muta harass.
Neosteel Frame pretty much allows mass bunker defense to be SUPER SUPER effective against both zerg and protoss, in combination w/ building armor this seems like a very very strong defense.
The only real reason I can see these upgrades not being used is simply because getting the +attack +armor upgrades are more important, but even when terrans are 3/3 they don't get these upgrades. I feel that the small investment into these upgrades can significantly alter terrans ability to push out without having to worry about any type of Muta harras, and their ability to crunch down on important offensive choke points.
What are your thoughts?
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Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless.
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On June 05 2011 13:30 superbabosheki wrote:
Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless.
Even Meching terran rarely get turret range, even in pro play. The only people I've seen getting it was Select against Idra in the recent MLG match, and Gretorp. It effectively just shut down Idra's muta harass pretty hard, but Select still got stomped. I'm just surprised we don't see these upgrades more often.
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turret range isnt that rare
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On June 05 2011 13:32 Warrice wrote:
turret range isnt that rare
But its rarely paired w/ building armor. That's the thing that bugs me, cause even w/ +1 range turrets can still be sniped fairly quickly by a swarm of mutas, however the +2 building armor pretty much allows them to take WAY WAY more damage.
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Engineering bays are tight on time for bio upgrades with bio, and mech is tight on gas. I mean, hey, why doesn't terran just get all this stuff that costs gas? Well that's great. We don't have anything to spare. Werp. Forgive my attitude.
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I got Hi-Sec Auto Tracking by accident once...
The range actually does make a huge difference. I don't budget my moneys enough to get it in a normal game though.
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@ Mnijkymirl
Like someone said earlier even at 3/3 rarely terrans get these upgrades.
And in the late game a couple or maruaders/marines are a small price to pay for +2armor +1 range ect.
And I don't even play terran. Lol.
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In tvt I always get hisec auto tracking when I go mech. In the other matchups usually I would rather have attack/armor upgrades instead of researching those.
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On June 05 2011 13:34 wei2coolman wrote:But its rarely paired w/ building armor. That's the thing that bugs me, cause even w/ +1 range turrets can still be sniped fairly quickly by a swarm of mutas, however the +2 building armor pretty much allows them to take WAY WAY more damage.
Turret range researches about twice as fast as building armor and is also 50/50 cheaper, meaning it clogs up less in terms of bio upgrades (or takes up less gas when meching). It's useful since it gives 3 range mutas even less room to work with and turrets are needed to defend given the thor's speed.
Building armor I feel is superfluous. If you have 2 turrets in the mineral line, you can just have scvs repair turrets under attack. If your opponents have enough mutas to brute force your turrets, you probably shouldn't count on building armor to save your ass. If you really need to defend against mass mutas, might as well buy a 300/200 thor and leave it in base instead of 150/150 armor + 2 turrets.
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99% of the time Terrans are going for bio upgrades first and by the time you get all your bio upgrades often time the zerg has moved on from muta's which is the only real reason to get hi sec. It is useful for mech but I think zergs are starting to realize how hard infesters counter mech so they are going more for them. In the Idra select game he started to get mutas and when he seen that Select was going to stick to going mech he almost completely switched into infesters with neural parasite.
So its just one of those upgrades that by the time you want to use it, the zerg isn't even using the unit its good for. But I do agree that there is really no reason to not have building armor.
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I get everyone of them except for Bunker upgrade. That ones totally useless since bunkers become pretty obsolete after the early to mid game.
The other ones help alot against Muta Harass, and Mech style play with PFs, and with slow pushing with turrets. Their not something i rush for, but that i consider when i have the money to do so. Though In TvT i've been opting to get Turret range because banshees piss me off.
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I think he does have a point.... I mean against a player like julyzerg, possibly getting turret range, and building armor would be EXTREMELY good considering he is so ling, bane, and muta heavy and relies on throwing units at you (once he is 2-3 bases) until you lose focus and get overrun, and maybe to defeat something like this, would require just turtling hardcore until you get 3-4 bases and a 200/200 army and can resupply decently, then push out. Especially in the lower leagues and even in pro matches sometimes on maps like xel naga where the zerg at times crashes 30 banes into the pf right as you are taking the gold, building armor could be extremely beneficial as well.
Bunker upgrade, I think I only seen it in one pro match effectively, and maybe it will be used more in the future as the game develops even more. It could be useful on maps like tal darim in extreme late game where terran is expanding nicely and the match is at 200/200, they could throw down some pfs and bunkers and that would help with the slow resupply problem, and to not be overrun by the speedy reinforcements on z and p.
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these upgrades are designed for defensive usage and you dont want to stay defensive in a game for long unless you are in some special situation.
out of all 3, the most commonthing you could see is turret range since in PvZ T need a tons of turrets and PF to defends vs counter attack, the rest of them are not as useful at all.
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On June 05 2011 13:49 Lewan72 wrote:
@ Mnijkymirl
Like someone said earlier even at 3/3 rarely terrans get these upgrades.
And in the late game a couple or maruaders/marines are a small price to pay for +2armor +1 range ect.
And I don't even play terran. Lol.
When terran infantry is at 3/3 or even 2/2, zerg will stop getting mutas. For the sole reason that muta upgrades will never be able to keep up with infantry's, due to their ground upgrades. At most, it's at 2/0.
In games where you have to rely on the armor and range upgrades to survive the muta packs, you have already lost the game.
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Also does detection range increase with that upgrade or is it only for shooting range on pfs and turrets???
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On June 05 2011 14:23 NB wrote:
these upgrades are designed for defensive usage and you dont want to stay defensive in a game for long unless you are in some special situation.
out of all 3, the most commonthing you could see is turret range since in PvZ T need a tons of turrets and PF to defends vs counter attack, the rest of them are not as useful at all.
Building armor makes it so lings do about 1 damage to planetary fortresses, and makes muta harass much less effective.
The upgrades don't make you defensive. In mech play or even marine/tank TvZ, it's about slowly pushing and getting into good positions slowly. Turrets help when you have to run your marine around, building 1-2 can help you fortify your position and prevent muta harass when your marines move around.
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I get range and armor every game, usually once 2/2 is done, or 1/1 is done and I forgot to get an armory.
Usually by the time I'm taking my third, which is 95% of the time a PF, I like to have the +2 armor JUST to make it that much harder to bring down. They really have to commit into killing it, giving me the option to flank, sack, or go attack.
Turret upgrade I get vs muta players, always. That extra shot or two is money to me.
I mean, I'm not near gretorps level, but I'm 1.3k masters at least.
Also does detection range increase with that upgrade or is it only for shooting range on pfs and turrets???
Detection range is 9, I believe. It doesn't change. Just gives PF range and turrets range.
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You guys are really stretching. If you don't have a strategy designed around these upgrades, you shouldn't get them.
Edit: Also, a PF is so strong that 99% of the time they will not attack it anyway. The additional armor is trivial
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On June 05 2011 14:53 Halcyondaze wrote:
You guys are really stretching. If you don't have a strategy designed around these upgrades, you shouldn't get them.
Edit: Also, a PF is so strong that 99% of the time they will not attack it anyway. The additional armor is trivial
You'd be surprised how fast 25 mutas kill a PF....
You don't necessarily need to design a strategy around these upgrades. You just try and squeeze them in there. I think its really good in mid game to late game, really prevents any shenanigans, and you can do the whole Big ol' ball of units, and straight up fight a zerg army. From what I'm seeing in the pro games, a lot of zergs are harassing, and doing serious side damage to Terran. All this damage accumalates and you can tell that the final stand the Terrans do against Zergs simply get CRUSHED. But what if Terran was able to get the perfect army comp, and do a 1 punch KO attack to Zergs?
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Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard
Actually it just adds 1 range to your turrets, which the 25 mutas were going to kill anyways. The building armour upgrade is the only one I would even consider getting before 3/3 marines. Maybe if I dont make marines, but have you heard about how good they are?
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I've used the armor and range against IdrA and Vibe, but that's because they seem to be the only NA zergs who use mutas effectively. Some others have tried but I they usually have shit control and i just A move them w/ marines. It's really situational. I don't think it's better to get them over weapon upgrades (ever) so I'd only get them with a double ebay setup and if you see your opponent is upgrading melee then you really should keep up with armor.
Prior to 3-3 i think they are a waste to get not because they aren't good, but because having an extra armor on marines is better in virtually every real situation. If they were upgradeable from the orbital or something I'd get the building armor almost every game I think, but to occupy the ebay and delay your upgrades seems silly.
On June 05 2011 15:00 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard Actually it just adds 1 range to your turrets, which the 25 mutas were going to kill anyways. The building armour upgrade is the only one I would even consider getting before 3/3 marines. Maybe if I dont make marines, but have you heard about how good they are?
Yes I agree with this... If a player is using mutas en mass your turrets are going to die in one volley regardless and you'll need marine or thor support.... It's a shame that seeker missiles are garbage, however... They cost more energy than storm and fungal, they never land, they do less damage, they don't come auto researched, come at a later tech, casted from a more expensive unit... makes sense to me! Would be nice if seeker missiles had > 0% chance of hitting a muta stack.
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On June 05 2011 15:00 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard Actually it just adds 1 range to your turrets, which the 25 mutas were going to kill anyways. The building armour upgrade is the only one I would even consider getting before 3/3 marines. Maybe if I dont make marines, but have you heard about how good they are?
Marines are the counter to everything, so good.
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no reason not to get them if you are 3/3. lots of players float tons of money at the end of the game...why not?
i get them when i'm messing around in team games with mass raven. +1 range AND +2 turret armor? it's pretty kewl
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On June 05 2011 15:03 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 15:00 Techno wrote:Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard Actually it just adds 1 range to your turrets, which the 25 mutas were going to kill anyways. The building armour upgrade is the only one I would even consider getting before 3/3 marines. Maybe if I dont make marines, but have you heard about how good they are? Marines are the counter to everything, so good.
Only if the Marines can catch Mutas out of position, and because Mutas can fly and abuse terrain, its really hard for marines to catch mutas out of position.
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I love them, I just don't want to build 3 ebays, and bio upgrades almost always take priority.
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I wonder if the range upgrade for the Planetary Fortress makes it easier for it to defend against harassing units shooting at SCVs in the small space between mineral patches and sometimes cliffs.
A lot of players will try to fit ranged units into that space and harass mineral lines from just outside the range of the PF, so it'll be interesting to see if the upgrade negates that tactic.
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I think they have a place in the game, especially for a Mech Terran but since Bio is incorporated in almost all MU the EB time is used up, and late game I don't think the armor upgrades and the range upgrades will help a lot against big armies.
The Bunker space upgrade is kinda nice for split map situations IMHO
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On June 05 2011 13:30 superbabosheki wrote:
Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless.
Incorrect. DPS per area taken up by units is important in this game. Bunker capacity upgrade boosts DPS per area while maintaining the benefits of a bunker.
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On June 05 2011 15:11 eviltomahawk wrote:
I wonder if the range upgrade for the Planetary Fortress makes it easier for it to defend against harassing units shooting at SCVs in the small space between mineral patches and sometimes cliffs.
A lot of players will try to fit ranged units into that space and harass mineral lines from just outside the range of the PF, so it'll be interesting to see if the upgrade negates that tactic.
Yeah it does. It prevents the hiding behind mineral patches.
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All these upgrades will become more important as T's figure out mass bunkering against Z late game.
Mass bunkers restricts ground mobility and is a safety net against mass infestor / too many baneling.
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On June 05 2011 13:27 wei2coolman wrote:
For those who don't know, Gretorp is one of the very few pro Terrans (probably the only one) that get these upgrades:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 range to auto turrets, missle turrets, pdd, and planetary fortress)
Building Armor (+2 armor to all buildings)
Neosteel Frame (Increase load size for bunker, planetary, and command center)
I've always never quite understood why, and was wondering why more terrans don't get these upgrades?
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard, and can make 2 missle turrets completely deadly, especially with building armor.
Building Armor pretty much makes planetary invulnerable to any mass ling rush, and any muta harass.
Neosteel Frame pretty much allows mass bunker defense to be SUPER SUPER effective against both zerg and protoss, in combination w/ building armor this seems like a very very strong defense.
The only real reason I can see these upgrades not being used is simply because getting the +attack +armor upgrades are more important, but even when terrans are 3/3 they don't get these upgrades. I feel that the small investment into these upgrades can significantly alter terrans ability to push out without having to worry about any type of Muta harras, and their ability to crunch down on important offensive choke points.
What are your thoughts?
Defending means your not attacking. Investing in defending means your attacks are weak. You must constantly attack Zerg as Terran.
Logic son!
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honestly i think it's difficult to remember the hotkeys of those upgrades, without first having speciifically incorporated in some build lmao
it's silly to say but it's like a personal pet peeve to try and produce soemthing that i don't know the hotkey to, and i think more than a couple players can relate to that
i only know the hotkey to raven seeker missiles because of so much fooling around for example 
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if you play mech and dont get them its a mistake imo... no reason not to, however i do think that the engineering bay is usually busy if your going bio and its not worth getting behind in upgrades unless its late game...
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The game is young, mech is seldom used so Terrans aren't relying on Terran defensive capabilities, A turtling Terran is a rare thing indeed. Hopefully HOTS will have a factory unit that makes factory play more viable. Factory play opens the door to those upgrades.
I'd like to see Reapers and Hunter Seeker re-worked so they become viable. HS in particular could be a very effective spell with some tweaks. It would also make the raven more useful in TvZ and more Terrans might use it.
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I think the problem is in the pro level in korea, muta harass in the mineral line doesn't last too long anyway. even if it does, the huge ball of mutas are better dealt with thors because of the splash. While turrets can only hit one muta at a time. And unless you play like Flash, no one gets a whole ton of turrets.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
Building armour is pretty useful for turrets against a critical mass of mutalisks, and it should be used more under that circumstance. I'm not so sure about turret range/bunker capacity upgrades though, even in endgame situations with mass resources at 200/200 im not sure its worth getting. I mean you can say "well it doesn't cost THAT much" which is true, but it doesn't help much either and you might be better off making more orbitals or making extra factories/starports to remax faster (they're pretty gas intensive buildings)
its also worth noting that it takes up ebay time to research them, and at 3/3 you don't even usually need those upgrades anymore, because you probably already suffered massive damage from a monstrous amount of mutalisks raping turrets and production when you leave your base. Making a 3rd ebay might be worth it though if muta numbers get out of hand but you still want double upgrades... i haven't watched Gretorp play before so I don't know if he does this
just my 2 cents
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these upgrades are pretty standard for late game terran
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They are good but are both done in the ebay, where bio ups is more important. Its better to have stronger marines for drops and engagements to keep the muta ball from growing to big, because 30 mutas laugh at turrets even if they have the upgrades.
I get them after 3/3 bio, or if i forget an armory lol.
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I kind of agree, not getting these upgrades seems like a complete waste, but I think I know why they're so unincorporated in current strategy.
People are still trying to phase BW strategies into an sc2 scene, and any new problem is trying to be dealt with by using an old solution. I think as the game progresses into further stages, people will see the usefulness of these upgrades.
-- Consider this: A terran is on 4 base against a muta/ling baneling player, he has neosteel frame and building armor.
a PF and a bunker with 8 marines in it essentially negates any harass that isn't large enough to be considered a full out assault. 8 stimmed marines inside a bunker could deal SERIOUS blows to any mutalisk offense, and the planetary shuts down ground forces entirely.
The game just need to progress more. Terrans need to get inventive again.
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i think both upgrades are great and try to incorporate them into my games every chance i get.
the feeling you get when the "regular" number of banelings roll in to try to snipe a planetary, only to realize that it didn't go down because of the added armor is wonderful. i think in the current meta it throws your opponents off as well because players may think they have enough to take down buildings like a planetary and become confused as to why it seems so much stronger, since not many terrans use the armor upgrade.
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You forgot about Select, he also get's these upgrades.
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Only upgrade I think it truly useless is the neosteel frame upgrade.
If it did something else as well like, oh, for instance, decreased bunker build time by 15 seconds allowing you to move out to a forward siege position and get defensive bunkers up around your tanks that little bit faster or if it did the campaign upgrade you could buy which would further increase the range of garrisoned units by 1, that would be pretty damn awesome and well worth the, what is it 150 150? But all it does is give your marines a bigger hole to go die to banelings in. You build bunkers to protect your marines from banelings so that the marines can protect your tanks from lings and mutas. If you put 6 marines in a bunker, that means that when the bunker gets busted, you lose 2 more marines to the same number of banelings. It's actually counter productive to have more units in there a lot of the time.
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I think a lot depends on the style of play you use, against zergs I have been setting up a strong defensive position near to their nat/third depending on the map with a lot of siege'd tanks bunkers and turrets and using that as a pivot to swing harassing marines around either on foot or by drops.
The thing about this is you tend to encourage a ton of banelings anyway so +3 armour on marines doesn't do much then so id spent the time getting these upgrades just to make my position stronger. However I tend to run 2 engineering bays anyway so I get 3-3 quickly and then I may aswell continue the upgrades from them i tend to have the resources cos I am bad.
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Yeah neosteel frame is pretty situational, but building armor and range upgrades are pretty damn useful.
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On June 05 2011 15:13 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 13:30 superbabosheki wrote:
Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless. Incorrect. DPS per area taken up by units is important in this game. Bunker capacity upgrade boosts DPS per area while maintaining the benefits of a bunker.
When you build a bunker, it is almost always better to put one marine rather than 4(or 6). I thought that was pretty obvious. Probably not in diamond league.
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From watching terran play, I think it's more important to float 2k gas in long games than to get upgrades.
Turret range doesn't make your base invincible but it eliminates the little holes where mutas can fly and kill a depot or reactor for free. Everywhere the mutas go they are taking damage, and harass becomes less sustainable. It's also a very fast upgrade.
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So here are my comments as a mid/high master zerg player.
The +1 range for turrets always catches me off guard and I can tell when a terran has it. I'm very use to turrets having 7 range and I can skirt that range perfectly but when they're 8, I always will take a couple extra hits. That being said, by the time you probably would get +1 range (it's definitely not worth rushing to) I typically have a muta pack of 15+ and turrets getting one extra shot off before my muta's destroy them is not going to change anything. You still need marine/thor support or your base will be overrun and the +1 range is not going to help you there.
+2 armor is probably worthwhile getting. It will take a couple of extra mutas to take down turret rings and it may buy a terran an extra secondish per turret to get over there with their marines/thors. Still though, when mutas get in critical mass, +2 isn't going to help turrets that much. Obviously though, +2 armor in general will make your whole base a little less susceptible to drops and what not.
I don't know what the purpose of neosteel frames would be. The +2 armor to planetarys doesn't do anything since the only units +2 armor really does anything against (zerglings) are units you already don't engage a pf with. It's not going to stop banelings from rolling in, broodlords from destroying them, or really decrease roach damage by a worthy amount. Maybe having the +2 armor will allow reinforcements to arrive in time to stop mutas from destroying a pf, but that will only happen once every 20 games. The bunker space increase also really doesn't matter, just build more bunkers if you need, they only cost 25 minerals now.
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if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building.
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On June 05 2011 19:15 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 15:13 0neder wrote:On June 05 2011 13:30 superbabosheki wrote:
Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless. Incorrect. DPS per area taken up by units is important in this game. Bunker capacity upgrade boosts DPS per area while maintaining the benefits of a bunker. When you build a bunker, it is almost always better to put one marine rather than 4(or 6). I thought that was pretty obvious. Probably not in diamond league.
sorry what? it is better to put one marine in a bunker..?
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On June 05 2011 20:28 rmAmnesiac wrote:
if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building.
I'm wondering if it ever might be worth it to get 3 Ebay when you get 3 base.
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in late game TvZ or TvP, you can benefit from having a proxy planetary fortress staging point placed at a key position on the map. preferably cutting off enemy far expansions from the main, natural and 2nd natural.
i feel that this 'staging point' is eventually going to become essential for late-game terran, otherwise your army is too exposed and vulnerable when out on the map. you can literally insta-lose if you botch a single baneling trap or storm etc.
once fortified with siege tanks and upgraded turret/bunkers, it's insanely cost efficient and almost impossible for enemy to break...
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
+2 building armour is the gift that keeps on giving. But don't be surprised that no one gets it, for the most part upgrades are neglected at the pro level for reasons I don't understand. For example, it's taken the scene very long to realise getting 2 forges and spamming upgrades in PvT is HIGHLY effective - and even now upgrades are relegated to a secondary status to everything else.
In particular, people don't appreciate armour upgrades enough. Again, I'll cite PvT as an example where +1 armour is going to be farrrr more effective than +1 attack in most cases (unless you are spamming colossi like no tomorrow) but because it's harder to notice the difference between no armour and +1 armour zealots than +1 attack and no attack zealots.
Building armour against mutalisks should be mandatory. Mutalisks deal so little damage that building life increases dramatically with +2. With +2, mutalisks only deal 6 damage to buildings and their splash damage deals 1, then zero. In a raw comparison of # of hits, with no upgrade it takes 32 hits to kill a turret, with +2 that number jumps to 42. Say the Zerg had 9 mutalisks, that gives your turret an extra volley of mutalisk hits - and gives you that much more time to get home.
But it doesn't stop there. Zergling counter attacks/harass are completely ineffective as (without upgrades) they deal 2 damage. lol. Banelings still are a problem obviously, as they deal such massive raw damage, but for the most part a muta/ling/bling zerg will find it much harder to attack your buildings. I've tried to convince nazgul of its worth, but afaik, it was difficult to fit in with the styles that were being played. However, I think that if you start making a habit of researching it every TvZ (at least) you'll find a good place for it.
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Canada13389 Posts
neosteel to me seems really cool if you put 2 scvs inside the bunker to repair it from within instead of trying to repair it from outside. Forcefields wont stop you ever that way :D
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On June 05 2011 20:29 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 19:15 superbabosheki wrote:On June 05 2011 15:13 0neder wrote:On June 05 2011 13:30 superbabosheki wrote:
Mech Terrans almost always get turret range and building armor to stop muta harass due to the Thor's immobility since the ebay isn't used. If you play bio, the armor/wep is much more important to get.
The bunker/cc upgrade is useless. Incorrect. DPS per area taken up by units is important in this game. Bunker capacity upgrade boosts DPS per area while maintaining the benefits of a bunker. When you build a bunker, it is almost always better to put one marine rather than 4(or 6). I thought that was pretty obvious. Probably not in diamond league. sorry what? it is better to put one marine in a bunker..?
In TvZ you put a single marine in a bunker so that the Zerg unit AI's automatically attack it. If you have 4 marines in it, baneling splash will hit all of them as soon as the bunker goes down.
In TvP it's pretty much the same deal since forcefields can isolate bunkers it is better to keep one unit inside and the others dealing damage behind it, so that you don't lose multiple units once it goes down.
You see this mostly in high economy 2 base baneling busts and 2 base 5-6 gate pushes.
In midgame timing attacks, usually with marine/tank, bunkers are used as more of a super combat shield upgrade for marines, where you leapfrog with them and only put one unit in it to draw in enemy units while kiting/microing with the rest. A lot of the GSL TvP/TvZ's on TalDarim showcased this type of push/bunker usage.
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On June 05 2011 13:27 wei2coolman wrote:
For those who don't know, Gretorp is one of the very few pro Terrans (probably the only one) that get these upgrades:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 range to auto turrets, missle turrets, pdd, and planetary fortress)
Building Armor (+2 armor to all buildings)
Neosteel Frame (Increase load size for bunker, planetary, and command center)
I've always never quite understood why, and was wondering why more terrans don't get these upgrades?
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard, and can make 2 missle turrets completely deadly, especially with building armor.
Building Armor pretty much makes planetary invulnerable to any mass ling rush, and any muta harass.
Neosteel Frame pretty much allows mass bunker defense to be SUPER SUPER effective against both zerg and protoss, in combination w/ building armor this seems like a very very strong defense.
The only real reason I can see these upgrades not being used is simply because getting the +attack +armor upgrades are more important, but even when terrans are 3/3 they don't get these upgrades. I feel that the small investment into these upgrades can significantly alter terrans ability to push out without having to worry about any type of Muta harras, and their ability to crunch down on important offensive choke points.
What are your thoughts?
i always get the building armour and range upgrades, i dont understand why your calling them the gretorp upgrades either (i know he said he used them on NASL but that doesnt warrant them to be named after him lol)
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On June 05 2011 20:46 Plexa wrote:
+2 building armour is the gift that keeps on giving. But don't be surprised that no one gets it, for the most part upgrades are neglected at the pro level for reasons I don't understand. For example, it's taken the scene very long to realise getting 2 forges and spamming upgrades in PvT is HIGHLY effective - and even now upgrades are relegated to a secondary status to everything else.
In particular, people don't appreciate armour upgrades enough. Again, I'll cite PvT as an example where +1 armour is going to be farrrr more effective than +1 attack in most cases (unless you are spamming colossi like no tomorrow) but because it's harder to notice the difference between no armour and +1 armour zealots than +1 attack and no attack zealots.
Building armour against mutalisks should be mandatory. Mutalisks deal so little damage that building life increases dramatically with +2. With +2, mutalisks only deal 6 damage to buildings and their splash damage deals 1, then zero. In a raw comparison of # of hits, with no upgrade it takes 32 hits to kill a turret, with +2 that number jumps to 42. Say the Zerg had 9 mutalisks, that gives your turret an extra volley of mutalisk hits - and gives you that much more time to get home.
But it doesn't stop there. Zergling counter attacks/harass are completely ineffective as (without upgrades) they deal 2 damage. lol. Banelings still are a problem obviously, as they deal such massive raw damage, but for the most part a muta/ling/bling zerg will find it much harder to attack your buildings. I've tried to convince nazgul of its worth, but afaik, it was difficult to fit in with the styles that were being played. However, I think that if you start making a habit of researching it every TvZ (at least) you'll find a good place for it.
The difference between the Double Forge and Building Upgrades is that those are worked into a build and also offensively useful while Building Armor and to a lesser extent Hi-Sec are somewhat timing based. You get Double Forge to get to 3/3 faster while Building Armor and Hi-Sec don't unlock any additional upgrade tiers. I think the general response is 'oh I don't need to get it right now, I could instead get something else that's potentially more useful.'
It would be cool to work at least building armor into a 8 minute timing off some of the standard openings. I could definitely see it on 2 rax/Reactor Rax (infact the Raven thing I did got it at the muta timing off 2 rax) since you don't get the armory as fast so you have some extra time.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 05 2011 21:08 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 20:46 Plexa wrote:
+2 building armour is the gift that keeps on giving. But don't be surprised that no one gets it, for the most part upgrades are neglected at the pro level for reasons I don't understand. For example, it's taken the scene very long to realise getting 2 forges and spamming upgrades in PvT is HIGHLY effective - and even now upgrades are relegated to a secondary status to everything else.
In particular, people don't appreciate armour upgrades enough. Again, I'll cite PvT as an example where +1 armour is going to be farrrr more effective than +1 attack in most cases (unless you are spamming colossi like no tomorrow) but because it's harder to notice the difference between no armour and +1 armour zealots than +1 attack and no attack zealots.
Building armour against mutalisks should be mandatory. Mutalisks deal so little damage that building life increases dramatically with +2. With +2, mutalisks only deal 6 damage to buildings and their splash damage deals 1, then zero. In a raw comparison of # of hits, with no upgrade it takes 32 hits to kill a turret, with +2 that number jumps to 42. Say the Zerg had 9 mutalisks, that gives your turret an extra volley of mutalisk hits - and gives you that much more time to get home.
But it doesn't stop there. Zergling counter attacks/harass are completely ineffective as (without upgrades) they deal 2 damage. lol. Banelings still are a problem obviously, as they deal such massive raw damage, but for the most part a muta/ling/bling zerg will find it much harder to attack your buildings. I've tried to convince nazgul of its worth, but afaik, it was difficult to fit in with the styles that were being played. However, I think that if you start making a habit of researching it every TvZ (at least) you'll find a good place for it. The difference between the Double Forge and Building Upgrades is that those are worked into a build and also offensively useful while Building Armor and to a lesser extent Hi-Sec are somewhat timing based. You get Double Forge to get to 3/3 faster while Building Armor and Hi-Sec don't unlock any additional upgrade tiers. I think the general response is 'oh I don't need to get it right now, I could instead get something else that's potentially more useful.' It would be cool to work at least building armor into a 8 minute timing off some of the standard openings. I could definitely see it on 2 rax/Reactor Rax (infact the Raven thing I did got it at the muta timing off 2 rax) since you don't get the armory as fast so you have some extra time. Agreed, and that is exactly why it isn't used at the moment. It's difficult to actually tell whether the upgrade has been beneficial or not. I've looked at the numbers enough to know that you could work it in nicely to a build, but would only pay off if you know they are going muta.
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The argument that "ebays are always busy" is really poor because a third 3rd ebay isn't a huge investment. You can maybe say that the upgrades are too expensive to get at the same time as everything else but no one has been remotely saying that.
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On June 05 2011 20:49 ZeromuS wrote:
neosteel to me seems really cool if you put 2 scvs inside the bunker to repair it from within instead of trying to repair it from outside. Forcefields wont stop you ever that way :D
Are you certain that this is possible? I don't think so at least - I know that SCVs can repair other units loaded into the same vehicle as them, but the vehicle itself?
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I would imagine Building Armor to be amazing in TvT. Marine drops get weakened immensely. I'd guess it would be worth getting around the 3base stage of the game.
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Generally you want to spend as few resources on defense as possible, so you can work on economy and your macro. Banking resources into not only static defense but also into upgrades for those static defenses is usually a waste of money. If you're quick enough, your army should be able to handle what your defense is for. The best defense is a good offense 
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Hi-Sec Auto Tracking(?) and the Building Armor are solid upgrades, I always get them after 3-3 or 1-1 if I am not going to invest in an armory or just don't need one at all
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Building armor is such a solid upgrade in all matchups, when to get it however?
Huge defense bonus against marines zealots and zerglings,
The bunker capacity upgrade seems kind of gimmicky i could only see it being used during a bunker push, but for defense may's well just throw down another bunker and salvage it.
Hi-Sec auto tracking good against mutas, but I think armor is more important. Lets your scv'sg et more of a chance to turret repair.
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On June 05 2011 22:22 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 20:49 ZeromuS wrote:
neosteel to me seems really cool if you put 2 scvs inside the bunker to repair it from within instead of trying to repair it from outside. Forcefields wont stop you ever that way :D Are you certain that this is possible? I don't think so at least - I know that SCVs can repair other units loaded into the same vehicle as them, but the vehicle itself?
Nope...just tried it. The SCVs cower in the bunker like chickens, but don't repair until you unload them.
Oh well.
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On June 05 2011 13:46 XDJuicebox wrote:
I got Hi-Sec Auto Tracking by accident once...
The range actually does make a huge difference. I don't budget my moneys enough to get it in a normal game though.
lolz, same here
I got hi-sec auto tracking vs a toss once and then went raven to be able to push against DTs, then got more ravens out because he massed blink stalkers and I wanted to have enough PDDs.
Let me say that the PDD and turrets were a game killer, and I ended up massing Ravens FTW.
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On June 05 2011 18:21 .Mthex- wrote:
I kind of agree, not getting these upgrades seems like a complete waste, but I think I know why they're so unincorporated in current strategy.
People are still trying to phase BW strategies into an sc2 scene, and any new problem is trying to be dealt with by using an old solution. I think as the game progresses into further stages, people will see the usefulness of these upgrades.
-- Consider this: A terran is on 4 base against a muta/ling baneling player, he has neosteel frame and building armor.
a PF and a bunker with 8 marines in it essentially negates any harass that isn't large enough to be considered a full out assault. 8 stimmed marines inside a bunker could deal SERIOUS blows to any mutalisk offense, and the planetary shuts down ground forces entirely.
The game just need to progress more. Terrans need to get inventive again.
Agree with this guy completely. That is if it doesn't take until HoS for these upgrades to get used, because who knows if they'll get removed or not.
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While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade?
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as people said, the weapon and armor ones are too essential. however, even in lategame people don't get the upgrades, which is kidna sad, tehy do heaps ag ainst fast at tacking/low damage units and i can see terran dealing with zerg much better if you have bunkers near your cc's to cover scv's being attacked and high armor, higher range turrets obliterating those stupid mutalisks
also a couple of planetary fortresses i nkey locations does wonders too
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On June 05 2011 23:27 gondolin wrote:
While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade?
Sometimes, against players who go heavy zergling or roach and I go with a lot of racks
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On June 05 2011 15:29 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 13:27 wei2coolman wrote:
For those who don't know, Gretorp is one of the very few pro Terrans (probably the only one) that get these upgrades:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 range to auto turrets, missle turrets, pdd, and planetary fortress)
Building Armor (+2 armor to all buildings)
Neosteel Frame (Increase load size for bunker, planetary, and command center)
I've always never quite understood why, and was wondering why more terrans don't get these upgrades?
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking is 100/100, but can effectively shut down any Muta Harrass super hard, and can make 2 missle turrets completely deadly, especially with building armor.
Building Armor pretty much makes planetary invulnerable to any mass ling rush, and any muta harass.
Neosteel Frame pretty much allows mass bunker defense to be SUPER SUPER effective against both zerg and protoss, in combination w/ building armor this seems like a very very strong defense.
The only real reason I can see these upgrades not being used is simply because getting the +attack +armor upgrades are more important, but even when terrans are 3/3 they don't get these upgrades. I feel that the small investment into these upgrades can significantly alter terrans ability to push out without having to worry about any type of Muta harras, and their ability to crunch down on important offensive choke points.
What are your thoughts?
Defending means your not attacking. Investing in defending means your attacks are weak. You must constantly attack Zerg as Terran. Logic son!
Not really, defending w/ buildings means you can attack with your units, without having to worry about a counter attack of sorts. Like I said "it can alter terrans ability to push out".
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Germany3367 Posts
GoOdy does use Hi-sec autotracking too 
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On June 06 2011 00:04 Huggerz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 23:27 gondolin wrote:
While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade? Sometimes, against players who go heavy zergling or roach and I go with a lot of racks
Never, and I think the upgrade is pretty inconsequential most of the time, unless its a very specific matchup. Medivacs have a pretty long staying time (compared to other spell casters), that means they're less likely to die, and survive throughout a game. So as the medivac lives, the initial boost of energy that comes from the upgrade becomes less and less significant. Also, the second a medivac spawns it still has enough energy to heal, its not like you need the extra energy to start healing.
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Thing is if I go heavy bio against zerg I want to be aggressive often so I'll be stimming a lot. With that and me generally not wanting to make a lot of medivacs which could be more marines / marauders / expansions / upgrades / more racks I want the medivacs I do make to be as useful as possible.
It's hardly an essential upgrade for sure but I do think it is useful
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I like to make a lot of banshees against zerg too, so with producing 1 medivac at a time from each starport, makes some sense having more energy when they spawn if you are being aggressive
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Whenever I off-race as T, I like to get the turret upgrade against Z. I didnt even know there was an upgrade for bunker capacity or building armor, but it seems like a small cost to make planetary fortresses even more ridiculous against zerg ground, although late game against a muta ball i feel like the turret range might not even help...
anyways, the reason Gretorp upgrades aren't seen much is simply because Terran aren't really having too much trouble with P or Z, since what they are doing now works almost perfectly find. The Terran possibilities are endless :c
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On June 05 2011 14:32 LaiShin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 13:49 Lewan72 wrote:
@ Mnijkymirl
Like someone said earlier even at 3/3 rarely terrans get these upgrades.
And in the late game a couple or maruaders/marines are a small price to pay for +2armor +1 range ect.
And I don't even play terran. Lol. When terran infantry is at 3/3 or even 2/2, zerg will stop getting mutas. For the sole reason that muta upgrades will never be able to keep up with infantry's, due to their ground upgrades. At most, it's at 2/0. In games where you have to rely on the armor and range upgrades to survive the muta packs, you have already lost the game.
They aren't to survive the muta packs, they're to completely nullify the threat of a backstab when you're trying to push up. Mutas have an extremely difficult time against turrets with armor and hi-sec.
I think the upgrades are useful in the super late game once 3/3 is done and the money is starting to pile up.
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I'd say most top tier players dodge these due to the fact that their minerals are generally already sinked into units and more important upgrades. If they did get these it would be most likely after 3/3 and 200/200 if they remember them.
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One thing that could make Hi-Sec good in TvP is : can a PF with Hi-Sec hit a stalker hidden behind the mineral line? Due to their range they can usually harass without retaliation and in the late game when you're on 3+ bases, a single stalker forcing you to split units and lose mining time if painful (one of the things that killed Thorzain in TSL3 Ro8 game 4 imho), so if the upgrade allow a PF to nullify that, it's all good, and one less thing to worry about for your multitasking.
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Even as a not-terran, it's really obvious that Building Armor is mainly for Turrets. Mutas deal 9 damage, splash is 3-1. If you take two away from that and an addtional 1 base armor... you know... you need a LOT of mutas to take a turret down, or two, or one that's getting repaired.
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On June 05 2011 20:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 20:28 rmAmnesiac wrote:
if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building. I'm wondering if it ever might be worth it to get 3 Ebay when you get 3 base.
My point exactly. When I get my third in TvZ I get range for turrets + PF, and armor, because I simcity around my PF with 2-3 ebays, to stop any and ALL baneling/sling run by or surrounds. Leaves me with about 4-5 ebays, gotta use em =P
While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade?
lol again, every TvZ I get this. Only because I 1-1-1 marine hellion elevator with a banshee cloak follow up, and then as I push, I keep my starport with a tech lab for that upgrade, until I need to swap onto a reactor later for more medics.
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I like to use HiSec and Armor when I can remember to get them, especially vs Z
The additional armor and range for turrets helps a LOT when dealing with mutas, especially armor
Armor increases survivability, and range decreases the amount of turrets you need to build to cover your production facilities and mineral line. IMO range isn't as useful if you aren't using ravens tho
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On June 05 2011 18:34 eYeball wrote:
You forgot about Select, he also get's these upgrades.
Select has got one of these upgrades, in one game. Ever
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Seems like a good idea, I've never thought of using those upgrades cause I prefer the weapons and armor upgrades, but getting building armor and Hi-sec auto tracking can really really really help vs mutas mid-late game in TvZ where zerg has like 20+ mutas
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I was working on a 1 rax fe build in tvz that leads into a hardcore tank bunker stim push with the building armour and bunker upgrade. It works well when the zergs haven't spread there creep far enough.
I like the upgrades.
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The only purpose i see for these building armor/ hisec auto tracking upgrades is for sneak expansions that are on the other side of the map which is already bad play to begin with.
Why you shouldnt get these upgrades?
-Because muta harrass can be stopped perfectly without these upgrades... therefor it would be a waste of money, contributing to a loss rather than a win.
-Time can be better spent on getting weapons/armor upgrades
Your point made me laugh about PFs being immune to a zergling rush, in what kind of game would you see a zerg player rushing a planetary with zerglings... Just GG already, LOL
To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
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On June 06 2011 02:53 Clonze wrote:
The only purpose i see for these building armor/ hisec auto tracking upgrades is for sneak expansions that are on the other side of the map which is already bad play to begin with.
Why you shouldnt get these upgrades?
-Because muta harrass can be stopped perfectly without these upgrades... therefor it would be a waste of money, contributing to a loss rather than a win.
-Time can be better spent on getting weapons/armor upgrades
Your point made me laugh about PFs being immune to a zergling rush, in what kind of game would you see a zerg player rushing a planetary with zerglings... Just GG already, LOL
To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
Sadly, not every zerg goes mutas. Roaches do happen. Take away 5 attack, opposed to 3 per roach means I can mass repair my PF until my army gets there to stop him.
Not has it happened once, but practically every TvZ where they go roach do I get hit at my expo with a sling surround on the PF to stop repair + roach focus fire.
You all are all so funny. I wonder how many actually play terran, and at a decent level. It helps armor upgrades to buy MORE time. Not make more turrets, but it buys you more time to decide to hit, or to defend your shit. Leaves time to set up a dropship with a thor to drop on high ground and lay a round or two into a ball, etc.
And again -- I get them all the time in TvZ, and I'd say I'm about 75% win percent in TvZ on both NA and EU.
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I actually really like the building armor upgrade, especially against zerg. Pairing it with the range upgrade just seems natural. I've had pretty good experience with using them in games.
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On June 06 2011 02:53 Clonze wrote:
To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
It's ok to have your own views. I take umbrage to statements like these that are just plain false. Earning money depends on your buildings surviving an attack. The same for producing units. If you can make those buildings harder to kill then they have contributed towards winning.
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To understand i think you'd have to look at this game from a economical and unit efficiency standpoint. These upgrades contribute nothing to winning, NOTHING. just try to argue that.
....lol
Okay, then think of this. 25-30 roaches blasting on a PF will kill it. Regardless of upgrade. However, without +2 armor, I can't get to it to kill his army/save my expo.
With +2? yes. I can get in an EPIC flank because I have to come from behind, as the PF WITH SPLASH hits from the front, being repaired.
Even if I don't say my 3rd(or just expo) then I take out MUCH more in minerals from my enemy in the army count. Therefore, by it living longer, it gets to shoot MANY more times and do some solid splash damage. They have to find a spot for infestors, if there are any. From behind is my army, and side is my PF. Hard to place them safely.
Ever do slow tank bunker pushes vs zerg on same side maps? Like DQ? Typhon? Try getting upgrade on armor, and see how well that roach sling bling can bust out now.
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Some of you guys just really hate any new thinking. No one is saying that these will win a game by itself. But over the course of the game, extra volleys on mutas count. Ever mass repair a turret against mutas only to have it blow up? Well what if you had extra armor? Is it worth delaying an infranty upgrade? Probably not. Is it worth having one less rax to remax? One less ghost? Maybe...
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i like this idea. gonna try to use turret upgrade+armor because it will deter zergs from making as many mutas causing a lot of wasted resources on the harass designed mutas. if they keep making mutas they wont be effective cause mutas that dont harass suck. i like the idea very much.
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Terran would have a lot easier time defending those protoss timings with bunkers if they had the armor upgrade.
However we need to test if a weapons upgrade wouldn't yield similar results...Research time is precious afterall.
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On June 06 2011 05:26 Sloth96 wrote:
i like this idea. gonna try to use turret upgrade+armor because it will deter zergs from making as many mutas causing a lot of wasted resources on the harass designed mutas. if they keep making mutas they wont be effective cause mutas that dont harass suck. i like the idea very much.
Yeah as a zerg player I only scratch my head super super hard when I got mass mutas and they don't get any of these upgrades.
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On June 05 2011 14:32 LaiShin wrote:
When terran infantry is at 3/3 or even 2/2, zerg will stop getting mutas. For the sole reason that muta upgrades will never be able to keep up with infantry's, due to their ground upgrades. At most, it's at 2/0.
In games where you have to rely on the armor and range upgrades to survive the muta packs, you have already lost the game.
Wrong.
That would actually imply mutas job and purpose is to attack marines and mauraders. Their job is to kill drops, stop terran expanding, and harass the hell out of every undefended terran building. A properly playing Zerg should never let his mutas fight marines. There is a reason why only attack is upgraded over armor, mutas aren't supposed to be shot at (although not the only reason.)
The real reason is by the time terran is 3/3, zerg has hive. Unless their muta ball is still alive, turret range isn't needed and a smart zerg will actually sacrafice his mutas for dmg to free up supply for the game ending 8 ultralisks or broodlords.
Simply put, its too late in the game for range to have an effect when gas is at a premium(ghosts) and mutas are out of the picture(hive). Plus turrets are still outranged by broodlords even with the upgrade.
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On June 06 2011 01:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 20:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:On June 05 2011 20:28 rmAmnesiac wrote:
if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building. I'm wondering if it ever might be worth it to get 3 Ebay when you get 3 base. My point exactly. When I get my third in TvZ I get range for turrets + PF, and armor, because I simcity around my PF with 2-3 ebays, to stop any and ALL baneling/sling run by or surrounds. Leaves me with about 4-5 ebays, gotta use em =P Show nested quote +While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade? lol again, every TvZ I get this. Only because I 1-1-1 marine hellion elevator with a banshee cloak follow up, and then as I push, I keep my starport with a tech lab for that upgrade, until I need to swap onto a reactor later for more medics.
When I go tech-lab port, I get energy. People don't believe me but TvZ isn't about a infinite stim like TvP neither is it about defending against DPS from the Terran POV. Its about preventing Zerg burst from landing on the marines and making sure you have enough marines standing in the aftermath. Neither will you be rushing for position like TvP or TvT..
Aleast that is the standardish bio-mech. You're going to do most of your healing before or after battle.
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I've been getting building armor for a long, long time. It is, in my opinion, the most underrated upgrade in the game.
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Also building armor helps in base trades. Going to start getting it after 3/3 in TvT where I go bio. Don't need the extra gas anyway...
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Just rather be spending my resources on any thing else.
By the time they are finished and useful you've already started your big scary push. And Mutalisk harassment is just that unless they have made a lot than that will make your push easier.
TL;DR does not suit the metagame preferences for most and getting them just wastes time.
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Considering how he did in mlg i wouldnt put much faith in his strategies.
With that aside though, i think high sec auto tracking can be really useful for sure especially if yoour PF'ing it up, i was thinking about it against protoss because alot of times protoss will put a stalker behind the mineral line to hit scv's i think the PF would beable to hit the stalker with high sec.
Durable materials is decent for TVZ but i dont think its a necessity unless the zerg is playing the counter attack /drop / nydus game, it can give you alot of extra time to get back to your base without losing too many key structures.
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I always get the Hi-Sec and the Building Armor since I mech so much.
I think they should definitely get some of these for sure, it is weird why they don't even after 3/3. Building armor is so good with Mutas since it negates the bounce damage, and +2 against a Muta's 9 damage is pretty huge. The +1 Range upgrade is also really useful because the PFs have 7 range and can hit things that... have 7 range xD. The +1 Range is also really awesome because it means you can perfectly fit two turrets in each mineral line that protects both geysers and the mineral lines, and these 8 Range Turrets can be used in many other ways to protect many build buildings (for example, u can make 2 columns of factories or barracks and put turrets in between them, the turrets would protect both columns).
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lol at the these threads i ve been getting these upgrades for ages in order to shut down muta harrasment allowing me to push out earlier than most zergs are used to.
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The +2 armour has no effect on baneling damage. The upgraded range might kill a few more depending on your simcity.
I got the building armour upgrade for a string of games (only in gold) and found it was only marginally useful, when you were base trading or if a zerg tried to swarm a turret in a mineral line. The range upgrade is also marginally useful for PFs inTvP as without it stalkers outrange the fortress, but unless I was doing a weird build with a PF at my first expansion this was trivialised by them having colossus or them just not fighting at that base...
These upgrades help ravens be slightly more annoying as they effect the auto turret, but really ravens suck so much now PDD doesnt work on broodlords.
The games had some success with were where I would get mass bunkers and crawl across the map, but vs zerg this was shut down by banelings or broodlords, as like I said banes ignore armour and broods do big damage from the shot, and even though the broodlings attacks are mitigated it doesnt really do anything but take longer for them to crush you.
I think of the building armour like a stealth upgrades as its not as obvious as the neosteel, but good players will just click on one of your buildings.
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debo gets the bunker upgrades for when he bunker + marine tank raven one-bases against toss
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Has anyone ever wondered why Terran is the only race that has "gretorp" upgrades? Its not like terran needs them to be balanced or anything... Even supply drop seems like an extraneous convenience for T that isn't necessary for gameplay and balance.
I feel like the developers just had more ideas for T than they did for the other races because of the campaign. It would be nice if the evolution chamber or the forge had some interesting "gretorp" uPgrades as well...
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I agree mostly with what you are saying, about the building armour and range. This pagei s pretty telling about just how much more "stuff" terran have, I guess after heart of the swarm it will be more balanced:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Upgrades
That said the abilities of the OC have their zerg counterparts supplied by the overseer for zerg: scan = changeling + detector, supply drop + mules = the inject, leaving contaminate to counter some other useless spell of terrans.
I feel each race is balanced in terms of functionality, just terran have a few more things that they don't really need.
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On June 05 2011 14:32 LaiShin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 13:49 Lewan72 wrote:
@ Mnijkymirl
Like someone said earlier even at 3/3 rarely terrans get these upgrades.
And in the late game a couple or maruaders/marines are a small price to pay for +2armor +1 range ect.
And I don't even play terran. Lol. When terran infantry is at 3/3 or even 2/2, zerg will stop getting mutas. For the sole reason that muta upgrades will never be able to keep up with infantry's, due to their ground upgrades. At most, it's at 2/0.
[citation needed]
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Does anyone know if +1 range will allow PF to hit ranged units dropped behind the mineral line?
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The upgrades are perfectly fine - it's just that the ebay is normally busy getting infantry upgrades.
They can be squeezed in easily (and should be) in the lategame when resources are generally more abundant.
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I always get the armor upgrade for buildings. It helps a lot against Zerg harassments and marine drops. Every little advantage you can get is good.
I also get the +1 shield first before I get +1armor/weapon, my buildings profit from it, like all my units. The best part of the shield +1 is that archons and stalkers profit most of it. I don't want my stalkers to take hull damage cause they can't regenerate it and the better their shields are, the more I will have success while attacking/harassing.
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On June 10 2011 15:32 lim1017 wrote:
Does anyone know if +1 range will allow PF to hit ranged units dropped behind the mineral line?
That depends on how much space there is there, but they will likely be hit when trying to move around.
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Hi Fellow TL-ers,
I had a game where i did the Gretorp upgrades. It was pretty good in shutting down mutas combined with thors and rines.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6745
Btw, is auto-repair really broken? the other player had some BM after the game and saying it was a broken mechanic and it was a cheap win...
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I'll simply this for you. I would rather have 2 fast Banshees and be able to start Siege Tanks right away rather than have one Banshee with Cloak.
It's even possible to have 1 gas Banshee fast expand. Do not have as many options on two gas.
Anyways the point was that upgrades are fine and all but in the end I'd rather spend my resources on everything else first and the Gretop Upgrades as you call them just are not useful enough to fit in general game plans.
I'll never say that Durable Materials allowed me to survive an opponent's attack unless I was doing a mass Raven build. And even then why the hell didn't you get Seeker Missile first!?
TL;DR these upgrades just do not make sense in general game play and builds.
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On June 06 2011 01:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 20:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:On June 05 2011 20:28 rmAmnesiac wrote:
if they weren't from the engineering bay i would get them nearly every game. bio upgrades are far more important, and by the time i'm at 3 3 bio, they seem far less valuable. would love to see them being researchable from another building. I'm wondering if it ever might be worth it to get 3 Ebay when you get 3 base. My point exactly. When I get my third in TvZ I get range for turrets + PF, and armor, because I simcity around my PF with 2-3 ebays, to stop any and ALL baneling/sling run by or surrounds. Leaves me with about 4-5 ebays, gotta use em =P Show nested quote +While we are speaking about unusual upgrades, do anyone get medivac energy upgrade? lol again, every TvZ I get this. Only because I 1-1-1 marine hellion elevator with a banshee cloak follow up, and then as I push, I keep my starport with a tech lab for that upgrade, until I need to swap onto a reactor later for more medics.
I really don't get why you would do that. Why not instead build barracks that are actually useful, are better than useless additional ebays at blocking stuff and only marginally more expensive than those?
And if you really build an additional ebay to research those upgrades, it effectively makes them a lot more expensive then before, because that additional ebay is basically only there for researching them. So you can add those 125 minerals to the cost of them, which is an important increase in cost, and might shift the cost/use calculation towards them not being worth it.
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I use the upgrades in TvT the most. As others have said, its not that they're bad, its that the other upgrades have a better return in the other matchups.
However in TvT, when I scout some cute 2-3 port mass banshee or battlecruisers as I'm pumping out tanks, I immediately start researching the armor and range upgrades. I then just spam turrets with my tank push and its insanely cost inefficient for them to take out the turrets. But its very situational and does make for a long game, but in the long run it brings you out ontop when they have to trade gas for minerals so inefficiently.
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I honestly didn't know there was a bunker size upgrade. I've never seen it used either.
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If I remember correctly, Jinro gets high-sec almost every game verses Zerg. The Clash of the Titans showmatch, I think he gets it every game.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 05 2011 13:55 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 13:34 wei2coolman wrote:On June 05 2011 13:32 Warrice wrote:
turret range isnt that rare But its rarely paired w/ building armor. That's the thing that bugs me, cause even w/ +1 range turrets can still be sniped fairly quickly by a swarm of mutas, however the +2 building armor pretty much allows them to take WAY WAY more damage. Turret range researches about twice as fast as building armor and is also 50/50 cheaper, meaning it clogs up less in terms of bio upgrades (or takes up less gas when meching). It's useful since it gives 3 range mutas even less room to work with and turrets are needed to defend given the thor's speed. Building armor I feel is superfluous. If you have 2 turrets in the mineral line, you can just have scvs repair turrets under attack. If your opponents have enough mutas to brute force your turrets, you probably shouldn't count on building armor to save your ass. If you really need to defend against mass mutas, might as well buy a 300/200 thor and leave it in base instead of 150/150 armor + 2 turrets.
I agree with Big T on this one. Hi sec auto tracking is more popular for a number of reasons, and I think research time is the biggest one-- in TvZ, it's important that your marine don't fall behind in upgrades relative to zerg carapace, since you need their stimmed attack power to protect your tanks from zerglings /roaches and the marines themselves from banelings.
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I play terran alot.
While playing the Beta, I used to get these upgrades everygame because I never went Bio. I always went air/mech.
having played wc3 +2 building armor is rather good. Any kind of wall-off is a bit more durable.
+1 range is cool when you are getting mass turrets and PFs.
I always love to build several PFs just for funzies.
These upgrades are not offensive but more for casual play and defensive.
Bunker upgrade is very cool. VS protoss in Macro Games I really love to throw down bunkers and get all the Tech.
If you're playing on a big macro map, bunkers can really be a saving grace and safe ground for you're BIO force.
100 minerals to shield you're units is very awsome when well-used.
VS protoss Mech is pretty weak. So Bio balls with defensive stuff is almost always a plus in macro maps.
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Whenever i go Mech i use the "Gretorp upgrades" since the ebay isnt really used for anything else. In a regular game the ebay is constantly used to upgrade weapons and armor for the infantry thus there's no time.
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I have never seen any pro player get the bunker upgrade.
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For the sake of information, note that the +1 range upgrade for a turret increases its area covered by about 30%.
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I don't get those upgrade in TvZ because my resources are better allocated in marine/tank/medivac and attack/armor upgrades for a strong timing push. Since these "Gretorp upgrades" take time to research it's pointless to invest in early game as you never know if zerg is going mutas or not. Attack/armor upgrades are crucial for marines so if I wanted these extra upgrades I would have to have like 3 eBays, which is a lot of money for investing in defense that you don't need to win the game. By investing in these upgrades you are declaring you want to play defensively and that's not a good way to fight zerg because then they will just outexpo you and take total map control.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 25 2011 02:26 bakesale wrote:
For the sake of information, note that the +1 range upgrade for a turret increases its area covered by about 30%.
It's also worth noting that when using standard, 7 range turrets, to support each other against mutas they need to be within a little less than 4 of each other. With the upgraded 8 range turrets, you can space them a full unit further apart an they will still be able to support each other against mutas.
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Northern Ireland25040 Posts
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Now I feel super nostalgic and will search for old matches of MLG, NASL, Dreamhack, and GSL on youtube
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Northern Ireland25040 Posts
I love whatever weird advertising algorithm that decided the folks who love hi-sec auto tracking were their demographic
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On August 13 2019 06:10 Wombat_NI wrote:
I love whatever weird advertising algorithm that decided the folks who love hi-sec auto tracking were their demographic
huh. I thought they were just targeting the gretorp fanclub.
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I wonder what Gretorp is up to these days, last I heard he was trying to go pro in poker iirc.
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On August 14 2019 15:03 SlammerIV wrote:
I wonder what Gretorp is up to these days, last I heard he was trying to go pro in poker iirc.
was about to post the same sentiment. where did that dood go?
i remember he had very lucrative alternative options so he's probably pursuing real life things
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This is why I post in this thread: I remember NASL. Gretorp cast a ton of games. If I would ever meet him, I would like to thank him.
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This must be the start of a viral campaign to bring back Neosteel Frames. I for one am in support.
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Is neosteel frames not a thing anymore?
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Me: Why is the world is a Gretorp thread on the hot list?
*clicks*
Hnnnnnggg the nostalgia...
Wherever you are Gretorp, I hope you're happy!
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On August 22 2019 02:24 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Me: Why is the world is a Gretorp thread on the hot list?
*clicks*
Hnnnnnggg the nostalgia...
Wherever you are Gretorp, I hope you're happy!
exactly :DDD <3
and i love the clip of geoff trolling him about bunker changes.
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First of all, the consensus is more like: Get one of those. Two are often an overkilled and for a special strategy, would be boring if everyone got those right? While one of these really help vs any kind of harrasses.
To add,my preference at least the armor upgrade to your buildings is so useful ,
- as mech
- vs zerg
useful yes, but not modern: Locusts, banelings are the main damage dealers nowadays, so you rather have a few widow mines more I'd say.
Pro Players have to use every ressource efficiently. Just play terran yourself, and you will find yourself using gas otherwise in most situations, not saying it's not good to get those.
Agreed
It sounds so little 100/100 for something useful I lived with this attitude too, but ingame you will just see...
Nonetheless, my highest guess afterall is still, they simply forget about getting it, BECAUSE >50% of thet time it*s not efficient!
I love whatever weird advertising algorithm that decided the folks who love hi-sec auto tracking were their demographic
Haha many fans indeed.
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Thanks guys. I'm doing well, incredibly happy and thankful. Love you guys and love you sc community
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On September 04 2019 15:20 Gretorp wrote:
Thanks guys. I'm doing well, incredibly happy and thankful. Love you guys and love you sc community
Glad to hear back from you man! We love you too, take care!
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On September 04 2019 15:20 Gretorp wrote:
Thanks guys. I'm doing well, incredibly happy and thankful. Love you guys and love you sc community
Cheers matey
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EPT
