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On July 15 2011 10:58 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 10:24 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:14 tdt wrote:On July 15 2011 09:43 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 09:37 tdt wrote:
Instead of proving to everyone what a tool you are Diabolegal why not put your money where your mouth is? I assume Geiko's bet still stands? If you really think that nobody can ever scout whether the cheesy player doing this build is moving out with marines and SCVs or floating out an expansion by simply watching the natural/exit, then you are the tool. Also, if I want a game where each player knows what the other is doing, I'll watch the CombatEX-Deezer grudge match. I like giving my money away as much as the OP likes criticism. Of course it can be scouted and countered. OP said as much. Sending scouits on 9/10, get lucky on 4 player or easier on 2 player map. Point is even if scouted some players may die. You can also trick someone into a counter not there while doing something els,e cloak banshee/FE etc going for an auto win that way. Point is you can get GM/M with a strat that takes little skill and Geiko has done it and is willing to do it again to prove naysayers such as yourself wrong. What do you offer, theory, BM, and trolling. Being hostile to people, like the OP, who were hostile to me first is not BM/trolling, it's self-defense. What I offered was constructive criticism, and instead of engaging in intelligent discussion, I got dozens of childish replies full of name-calling and strawman arguments. For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying that this build works (speaking of the strawman...). My point is that you can leave your worker scout in the natural to see whether or not T moves out. If he does, you can bunker up; if he doesn't, you can spot an expansion going down and/or use Orbital energy for a scan to see what T is really doing. I've done it before (so it's not only a theory); it's not that hard to do. So you assume they wont kill your scout with like 2 marines showing you nothing? Tbh it sounds like youve played against terrible people, or people doing the build wrong. Also, youve been getting a bad rep, even while you are pointing out legit things. The point about Deezer and CombatX, obvious troll. But that aside, your not being as stupid as most people are saying. Even if you are being rather rude about it 
There's this fantastic strat called "sending a follow-up scout if your first one dies." The scout is going to either hide in the natural or linger along the main attack path. If a billion marines are there when you only have a few, then it's pretty clear what's going on.
Also, my point about Deezer and CombatEX was a response to someone's ridiculous suggestion that I play somebody even though we'll each know what the other is doing. Oddly, you didn't flag the part where this same person first calls me a "tool" as a troll remark or "being rather rude." Fascinating show of consistency.
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On July 15 2011 11:16 Sina92 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 06:45 Deezer wrote:
CombatEX and RatzDeezer made it to high Grandmasters b/c of the cannon rush and proxy warpgate and stargate. By your rationale, we have no right to rebut anything they have to say about SC2 b/c they're ranked higher than us even though they're horrible players with cheesy builds. I'm sick of people making the fallacy of authority, but it's easier to attack someone's credibility than to address his argument.
It really sad to said someting you have no idea. My macro is prolly better then alot of gm player , so before talking shit do some research. Its fine your prob 12. Totally forgiven you User was warned for this post why am I not surprised to see you post in this thread Deezer? On topic: This build is too hard to hold as protoss. The protoss can't make a single mistake basically, and if he is unable to kite your army with stalkers (due to alternative attack paths or so) its pretty much 100% GG.
If scouted this build is incredibly easy to hold as protoss. just make sentries. Ive done it with my friend and its really not hard. At all. The point is if they 1 rax FE instead
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On July 15 2011 11:18 Diabolegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 10:58 Squigly wrote:On July 15 2011 10:24 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:14 tdt wrote:On July 15 2011 09:43 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 09:37 tdt wrote:
Instead of proving to everyone what a tool you are Diabolegal why not put your money where your mouth is? I assume Geiko's bet still stands? If you really think that nobody can ever scout whether the cheesy player doing this build is moving out with marines and SCVs or floating out an expansion by simply watching the natural/exit, then you are the tool. Also, if I want a game where each player knows what the other is doing, I'll watch the CombatEX-Deezer grudge match. I like giving my money away as much as the OP likes criticism. Of course it can be scouted and countered. OP said as much. Sending scouits on 9/10, get lucky on 4 player or easier on 2 player map. Point is even if scouted some players may die. You can also trick someone into a counter not there while doing something els,e cloak banshee/FE etc going for an auto win that way. Point is you can get GM/M with a strat that takes little skill and Geiko has done it and is willing to do it again to prove naysayers such as yourself wrong. What do you offer, theory, BM, and trolling. Being hostile to people, like the OP, who were hostile to me first is not BM/trolling, it's self-defense. What I offered was constructive criticism, and instead of engaging in intelligent discussion, I got dozens of childish replies full of name-calling and strawman arguments. For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying that this build works (speaking of the strawman...). My point is that you can leave your worker scout in the natural to see whether or not T moves out. If he does, you can bunker up; if he doesn't, you can spot an expansion going down and/or use Orbital energy for a scan to see what T is really doing. I've done it before (so it's not only a theory); it's not that hard to do. So you assume they wont kill your scout with like 2 marines showing you nothing? Tbh it sounds like youve played against terrible people, or people doing the build wrong. Also, youve been getting a bad rep, even while you are pointing out legit things. The point about Deezer and CombatX, obvious troll. But that aside, your not being as stupid as most people are saying. Even if you are being rather rude about it There's this fantastic strat called "sending a follow-up scout if your first one dies." The scout is going to either hide in the natural or linger along the main attack path. If a billion marines are there when you only have a few, then it's pretty clear what's going on. Also, my point about Deezer and CombatEX was a response to someone's ridiculous suggestion that I play somebody even though we'll each know what the other is doing. Oddly, you didn't flag the part where this same person first calls me a "tool" as a troll remark or "being rather rude." Fascinating show of consistency.
Lol. First off, if everybody says your being rude. Odds are you are. Secondly, you know 2 rines can kill a probe right? before it gets past. Your follow up scout will be killed by 2 marines. This is ofc assuming your playing someone decent who doesnt just get his whole ball and a move.
Im not saying everyone is being polite but In the guys defense, you are kinda being a tool
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On July 15 2011 11:23 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 11:18 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:58 Squigly wrote:On July 15 2011 10:24 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:14 tdt wrote:On July 15 2011 09:43 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 09:37 tdt wrote:
Instead of proving to everyone what a tool you are Diabolegal why not put your money where your mouth is? I assume Geiko's bet still stands? If you really think that nobody can ever scout whether the cheesy player doing this build is moving out with marines and SCVs or floating out an expansion by simply watching the natural/exit, then you are the tool. Also, if I want a game where each player knows what the other is doing, I'll watch the CombatEX-Deezer grudge match. I like giving my money away as much as the OP likes criticism. Of course it can be scouted and countered. OP said as much. Sending scouits on 9/10, get lucky on 4 player or easier on 2 player map. Point is even if scouted some players may die. You can also trick someone into a counter not there while doing something els,e cloak banshee/FE etc going for an auto win that way. Point is you can get GM/M with a strat that takes little skill and Geiko has done it and is willing to do it again to prove naysayers such as yourself wrong. What do you offer, theory, BM, and trolling. Being hostile to people, like the OP, who were hostile to me first is not BM/trolling, it's self-defense. What I offered was constructive criticism, and instead of engaging in intelligent discussion, I got dozens of childish replies full of name-calling and strawman arguments. For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying that this build works (speaking of the strawman...). My point is that you can leave your worker scout in the natural to see whether or not T moves out. If he does, you can bunker up; if he doesn't, you can spot an expansion going down and/or use Orbital energy for a scan to see what T is really doing. I've done it before (so it's not only a theory); it's not that hard to do. So you assume they wont kill your scout with like 2 marines showing you nothing? Tbh it sounds like youve played against terrible people, or people doing the build wrong. Also, youve been getting a bad rep, even while you are pointing out legit things. The point about Deezer and CombatX, obvious troll. But that aside, your not being as stupid as most people are saying. Even if you are being rather rude about it There's this fantastic strat called "sending a follow-up scout if your first one dies." The scout is going to either hide in the natural or linger along the main attack path. If a billion marines are there when you only have a few, then it's pretty clear what's going on. Also, my point about Deezer and CombatEX was a response to someone's ridiculous suggestion that I play somebody even though we'll each know what the other is doing. Oddly, you didn't flag the part where this same person first calls me a "tool" as a troll remark or "being rather rude." Fascinating show of consistency. Lol. First off, if everybody says your being rude. Odds are you are. Secondly, you know 2 rines can kill a probe right? before it gets past. Your follow up scout will be killed by 2 marines. This is ofc assuming your playing someone decent who doesnt just get his whole ball and a move. Im not saying everyone is being polite but In the guys defense, you are kinda being a tool
Sorry to break it to you, but worker scouting isn't rocket science. You see where the marines are, and you go somewhere else. Then, you either wait for the marines to move out or you dart into the natural to see if there's an expo. I think I saw MarineKing do it once...or was it Nada?
This thread bores me. It was cool talking to Deezer, though.
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On July 15 2011 11:29 Diabolegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 11:23 Squigly wrote:On July 15 2011 11:18 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:58 Squigly wrote:On July 15 2011 10:24 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:14 tdt wrote:On July 15 2011 09:43 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 09:37 tdt wrote:
Instead of proving to everyone what a tool you are Diabolegal why not put your money where your mouth is? I assume Geiko's bet still stands? If you really think that nobody can ever scout whether the cheesy player doing this build is moving out with marines and SCVs or floating out an expansion by simply watching the natural/exit, then you are the tool. Also, if I want a game where each player knows what the other is doing, I'll watch the CombatEX-Deezer grudge match. I like giving my money away as much as the OP likes criticism. Of course it can be scouted and countered. OP said as much. Sending scouits on 9/10, get lucky on 4 player or easier on 2 player map. Point is even if scouted some players may die. You can also trick someone into a counter not there while doing something els,e cloak banshee/FE etc going for an auto win that way. Point is you can get GM/M with a strat that takes little skill and Geiko has done it and is willing to do it again to prove naysayers such as yourself wrong. What do you offer, theory, BM, and trolling. Being hostile to people, like the OP, who were hostile to me first is not BM/trolling, it's self-defense. What I offered was constructive criticism, and instead of engaging in intelligent discussion, I got dozens of childish replies full of name-calling and strawman arguments. For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying that this build works (speaking of the strawman...). My point is that you can leave your worker scout in the natural to see whether or not T moves out. If he does, you can bunker up; if he doesn't, you can spot an expansion going down and/or use Orbital energy for a scan to see what T is really doing. I've done it before (so it's not only a theory); it's not that hard to do. So you assume they wont kill your scout with like 2 marines showing you nothing? Tbh it sounds like youve played against terrible people, or people doing the build wrong. Also, youve been getting a bad rep, even while you are pointing out legit things. The point about Deezer and CombatX, obvious troll. But that aside, your not being as stupid as most people are saying. Even if you are being rather rude about it There's this fantastic strat called "sending a follow-up scout if your first one dies." The scout is going to either hide in the natural or linger along the main attack path. If a billion marines are there when you only have a few, then it's pretty clear what's going on. Also, my point about Deezer and CombatEX was a response to someone's ridiculous suggestion that I play somebody even though we'll each know what the other is doing. Oddly, you didn't flag the part where this same person first calls me a "tool" as a troll remark or "being rather rude." Fascinating show of consistency. Lol. First off, if everybody says your being rude. Odds are you are. Secondly, you know 2 rines can kill a probe right? before it gets past. Your follow up scout will be killed by 2 marines. This is ofc assuming your playing someone decent who doesnt just get his whole ball and a move. Im not saying everyone is being polite but In the guys defense, you are kinda being a tool Sorry to break it to you, but worker scouting isn't rocket science. You see where the marines are, and you go somewhere else. Then, you either wait for the marines to move out or you dart into the natural to see if there's an expo. I think I saw MarineKing do it once...or was it Nada? This thread bores me. It was cool talking to Deezer, though.
Glad to see you leave, as are most people here
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On July 15 2011 11:33 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 11:29 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 11:23 Squigly wrote:On July 15 2011 11:18 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:58 Squigly wrote:On July 15 2011 10:24 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 10:14 tdt wrote:On July 15 2011 09:43 Diabolegal wrote:On July 15 2011 09:37 tdt wrote:
Instead of proving to everyone what a tool you are Diabolegal why not put your money where your mouth is? I assume Geiko's bet still stands? If you really think that nobody can ever scout whether the cheesy player doing this build is moving out with marines and SCVs or floating out an expansion by simply watching the natural/exit, then you are the tool. Also, if I want a game where each player knows what the other is doing, I'll watch the CombatEX-Deezer grudge match. I like giving my money away as much as the OP likes criticism. Of course it can be scouted and countered. OP said as much. Sending scouits on 9/10, get lucky on 4 player or easier on 2 player map. Point is even if scouted some players may die. You can also trick someone into a counter not there while doing something els,e cloak banshee/FE etc going for an auto win that way. Point is you can get GM/M with a strat that takes little skill and Geiko has done it and is willing to do it again to prove naysayers such as yourself wrong. What do you offer, theory, BM, and trolling. Being hostile to people, like the OP, who were hostile to me first is not BM/trolling, it's self-defense. What I offered was constructive criticism, and instead of engaging in intelligent discussion, I got dozens of childish replies full of name-calling and strawman arguments. For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying that this build works (speaking of the strawman...). My point is that you can leave your worker scout in the natural to see whether or not T moves out. If he does, you can bunker up; if he doesn't, you can spot an expansion going down and/or use Orbital energy for a scan to see what T is really doing. I've done it before (so it's not only a theory); it's not that hard to do. So you assume they wont kill your scout with like 2 marines showing you nothing? Tbh it sounds like youve played against terrible people, or people doing the build wrong. Also, youve been getting a bad rep, even while you are pointing out legit things. The point about Deezer and CombatX, obvious troll. But that aside, your not being as stupid as most people are saying. Even if you are being rather rude about it There's this fantastic strat called "sending a follow-up scout if your first one dies." The scout is going to either hide in the natural or linger along the main attack path. If a billion marines are there when you only have a few, then it's pretty clear what's going on. Also, my point about Deezer and CombatEX was a response to someone's ridiculous suggestion that I play somebody even though we'll each know what the other is doing. Oddly, you didn't flag the part where this same person first calls me a "tool" as a troll remark or "being rather rude." Fascinating show of consistency. Lol. First off, if everybody says your being rude. Odds are you are. Secondly, you know 2 rines can kill a probe right? before it gets past. Your follow up scout will be killed by 2 marines. This is ofc assuming your playing someone decent who doesnt just get his whole ball and a move. Im not saying everyone is being polite but In the guys defense, you are kinda being a tool Sorry to break it to you, but worker scouting isn't rocket science. You see where the marines are, and you go somewhere else. Then, you either wait for the marines to move out or you dart into the natural to see if there's an expo. I think I saw MarineKing do it once...or was it Nada? This thread bores me. It was cool talking to Deezer, though. Glad to see you leave, as are most people here
When did I say I was leaving? I said that this thread bores me. I'm simply going to wait for the boredom (i.e., posts like yours that rebuke people for providing viable alternate possibilities) to subside. In other words, I'm waiting for you to leave.
So, I ask again: who else has successfully scouted this with a worker and shut it down?
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I'm so glad that the entire thread's discussion is about trolls and "No fuck you!". So helpful.
How does Zerg beat this? besides making a super fast baneling nest? I think if you go any sort of hatch first you lose, and pool/hatch seems to have trouble against it too.
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On July 15 2011 10:59 xHassassin wrote:
Is there a reason why you get orbital?
I mean it seems like you only get it to grab a supply dropdown.
Orbital is 150
Supply depo is 100
Unless the lost mining time is >50, it doesn't really make sense.
Supply depot costs 130 and you can't leave 3 SCVs (a mule) on minerals in this build for maximum impact. You can continue sending 2 rines infinity with OC.
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On July 15 2011 12:25 Belial88 wrote:
I'm so glad that the entire thread's discussion is about trolls and "No fuck you!". So helpful.
How does Zerg beat this? besides making a super fast baneling nest? I think if you go any sort of hatch first you lose, and pool/hatch seems to have trouble against it too.
You answered your own question and hope he's not doing something else behind wall.
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^ I asked because the one replay he shows of him losing is to super fast banes.
It also leaves you pretty screwed if you don't open gas.
I assume if you open 14/14 you cancel speed?
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I've defended it with banelings each time I've seen it on ladder, and it hasn't failed yet. If you opened gas/pool then you don't need to cancel speed, you can wait for the next 50 gas to make the baneling nest. If you didn't go gas first then I would say forget speed and just make the baneling nest.
Then I just bank 100 gas and watch for when he moves out, and make 4 banelings (and a round of zerglings) at that time - 4 banelings completely nullifies this rush - you don't even really need to stop droning. The baneling nest + 100 gas is a hit to your econ if it turns out he wasn't cutting workers but the upside is that it didn't cost larva, so you can hopefully still do some serious droning when you see his command centre.
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^ Do you have to cancel any hatches? I know 14/14 openings either go 14/14/15h or 14/14/20ish hatch, but both of those hatches will come before the rush hits. Actually I think the 20hatch won't even be 1/4th done.
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Well, I just faced some terran player on shattered temple doing this strategy. The barrack, depot wall at the bottom of the ramp reminded me of this thread. It was pretty easy to counter. As stated in the OP you just get a bunker up and surround it w/ scvs.
I just placed a partrolling scv a little bit outside my natural expansion to give me a warning of when to pull scvs and surround my bunker before he comes up the ramp.
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My god, how did this thread get so big?
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hey geiko if you are there could i please play 1-2 games against you
i am testing a new opener for protoss that i think is safe against this 3rax all-in, however i dont know for sure
ANY PLAYERS HERE that think they can execute the 3rax all-in perfectly, please PM me and do it against me a few games so i can see if my new build if safe against it
we dont have to play today. we can play whenever maybe tmrw or something
my new build i am using is a high economy build but i designed it so i should have enough stalkers (i think) to defend this all-in
geiko or anyone out there that that would like to do this to me a few games plz pm me and we can try it out
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Early All ins are trivial for terrans to defend with bunker/SCV mechanic as noted in OP jabberjaw as long as you scout them. It's other two race that has issue.
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On July 15 2011 17:39 roymarthyup wrote:
hey geiko if you are there could i please play 1-2 games against you
i am testing a new opener for protoss that i think is safe against this 3rax all-in, however i dont know for sure
ANY PLAYERS HERE that think they can execute the 3rax all-in perfectly, please PM me and do it against me a few games so i can see if my new build if safe against it
we dont have to play today. we can play whenever maybe tmrw or something
my new build i am using is a high economy build but i designed it so i should have enough stalkers (i think) to defend this all-in
geiko or anyone out there that that would like to do this to me a few games plz pm me and we can try it out
geiko,813 if you want to play.
But honestly, you don't want to design a build just to stop it, but rather just know how to adapt when you scout it.
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On July 15 2011 19:38 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 17:39 roymarthyup wrote:
hey geiko if you are there could i please play 1-2 games against you
i am testing a new opener for protoss that i think is safe against this 3rax all-in, however i dont know for sure
ANY PLAYERS HERE that think they can execute the 3rax all-in perfectly, please PM me and do it against me a few games so i can see if my new build if safe against it
we dont have to play today. we can play whenever maybe tmrw or something
my new build i am using is a high economy build but i designed it so i should have enough stalkers (i think) to defend this all-in
geiko or anyone out there that that would like to do this to me a few games plz pm me and we can try it out
geiko,813 if you want to play. But honestly, you don't want to design a build just to stop it, but rather just know how to adapt when you scout it.
i used to do a SUPER high economy build that is a build order loss to this all-in because by the time i scouted it, it was too late for me to react to it and beat it
i used to use that as my standard, but i cant anymore, because it is super high economy it raped the crap out of everything except this very fast all-in
thus, i must find a new standard that i can use. IE: i need to be able to open in a way that wont be a build order loss to this
however, i guess in a bo5 i could open up with my "super high economy" build sometimes which is like rolling the dice and hoping my enemy doesnt all-in, and then the rest of the games i can open up with my "safe standard"
anyway i wanna test this "safe standard" against you we can do it in a few days or whenever ill msg u if i see u online
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On July 15 2011 19:47 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 19:38 Geiko wrote:On July 15 2011 17:39 roymarthyup wrote:
hey geiko if you are there could i please play 1-2 games against you
i am testing a new opener for protoss that i think is safe against this 3rax all-in, however i dont know for sure
ANY PLAYERS HERE that think they can execute the 3rax all-in perfectly, please PM me and do it against me a few games so i can see if my new build if safe against it
we dont have to play today. we can play whenever maybe tmrw or something
my new build i am using is a high economy build but i designed it so i should have enough stalkers (i think) to defend this all-in
geiko or anyone out there that that would like to do this to me a few games plz pm me and we can try it out
geiko,813 if you want to play. But honestly, you don't want to design a build just to stop it, but rather just know how to adapt when you scout it. i used to do a SUPER high economy build that is a build order loss to this all-in because by the time i scouted it, it was too late for me to react to it and beat it i used to use that as my standard, but i cant anymore, because it is super high economy it raped the crap out of everything except this very fast all-in thus, i must find a new standard that i can use. IE: i need to be able to open in a way that wont be a build order loss to this however, i guess in a bo5 i could open up with my "super high economy" build sometimes which is like rolling the dice and hoping my enemy doesnt all-in, and then the rest of the games i can open up with my "safe standard" anyway i wanna test this "safe standard" against you we can do it in a few days or whenever ill msg u if i see u online
You can probably still use your super high economy build just adapt it at some point.
I have a no-scout PvT that has 0 information until very late in the game and I can still hold this off with good stalker control. (although it is hard).
I'll be on EU server this evening probably
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I just played against this on 1500 master level on backwater gulch and I saw the depot and barack on the bottom ramp but it got killed before I saw anything. Was about to sent an scv to scout again but he was already going all-in all his scv's and 15 or so marines.
I barely held it off with gas before rax and going bf hellion (korean style).
It's quite strong as I was about to gg but he didn't have any scv's and 5 marines vs my 2 bf hellions and 3 scv's.
Still the build is incredibly powerfull if you are being prevented scouting when looking for the supply calldown.
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EPT
