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[G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league - Page 52

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Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France2049 Posts
July 12 2011 17:43 GMT
#1021
The dude saying that you can scout with probes doesn't know what he is talking about. Whether you are doing the build, or doing a 1 rax FE, you will use your marines to clear out your base and the watch tower before the supply drop timing.
He also said something stupid like you couldn't expand after cutting workers... Well duh ! You're not going to cut workers if you are expanding...

It is also correct that the lower supply depot is vulnerable if you expand. This can be compensated by building an additional bunker to defend your FE.
geiko.813 (EU)
Diabolegal
Profile Joined June 2011
United States110 Posts
July 12 2011 18:15 GMT
#1022
On July 13 2011 02:43 Geiko wrote:
The dude saying that you can scout with probes doesn't know what he is talking about. Whether you are doing the build, or doing a 1 rax FE, you will use your marines to clear out your base and the watch tower before the supply drop timing.
He also said something stupid like you couldn't expand after cutting workers... Well duh ! You're not going to cut workers if you are expanding...

It is also correct that the lower supply depot is vulnerable if you expand. This can be compensated by building an additional bunker to defend your FE.


Learn to read. I said fast expanding wouldn't be feasible after cutting workers; I didn't say you'd cut workers if you're expanding. I also said that the probe can hide in the NATURAL to see if and when you move out; I didn't say anything about it hiding in your main (her derp! there's a wall!) or holding the watchtower (which doesn't cover your natural anyway). Probes hide in natural expos all the time to put down proxy pylons and, of course, scout for early aggression, which this build telegraphs.

Saying that others don't know what they're talking about doesn't cover up the fact that YOU don't know what you're talking about. Finally, saying "he won't scout this" are famous (and stupid) last words. Anybody can scout when the enemy expands to his natural or moves out.
Diamond Terran (NA)
Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France2049 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 18:24:04
July 12 2011 18:22 GMT
#1023
On July 13 2011 03:15 Diabolegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 02:43 Geiko wrote:
The dude saying that you can scout with probes doesn't know what he is talking about. Whether you are doing the build, or doing a 1 rax FE, you will use your marines to clear out your base and the watch tower before the supply drop timing.
He also said something stupid like you couldn't expand after cutting workers... Well duh ! You're not going to cut workers if you are expanding...

It is also correct that the lower supply depot is vulnerable if you expand. This can be compensated by building an additional bunker to defend your FE.


Learn to read. I said fast expanding wouldn't be feasible after cutting workers; I didn't say you'd cut workers if you're expanding. I also said that the probe can hide in the NATURAL to see if and when you move out; I didn't say anything about it hiding in your main (her derp! there's a wall!) or holding the watchtower (which doesn't cover your natural anyway). Probes hide in natural expos all the time to put down proxy pylons and, of course, scout for early aggression, which this build telegraphs.

Saying that others don't know what they're talking about doesn't cover up the fact that YOU don't know what you're talking about. Finally, saying "he won't scout this" are famous (and stupid) last words. Anybody can scout when the enemy expands to his natural or moves out.


Lol ^^I think I know what I'm talking about more than anybody in this thread :p

By "clear out your base" I meant clear the natural, are you seriously saying you hadn't understood this ?

It's in the OP if you had bothered to read, and in all my replays if you had bothered to watch them. You use your first marines to prevent scouting. Unless your opponent has a super probe with cloak he will not be able to scout the scvs moving out.

We are talking about a regular FE with bottom wall off, I have no idea in the world why you would want to talk about an FE where you cut scvs...

geiko.813 (EU)
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
July 12 2011 18:38 GMT
#1024
On July 13 2011 01:42 Diabolegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2011 12:47 tuestresfat wrote:
^Giving up a supply depot to be up a base in TvP, sounds worth it to me.

And lol at the guy (not you) who clearly as no idea what he's talking about


Being supply blocked and letting P into your base to scout you. Sounds worth it to me.

I love the "strategy" in these forums.

Are you actually that dumb or you just never learned to read.

I was going to write a reply elaborating what I meant, but reading the rest of your posts in this thread I can see you're just an arrogant and ignorant Plat player and you aren't worth my time.

It's idiots like you that bring down the standard we try and set at the strategy forums. If you don't like the standards here or simply can't understand it, don't read and don't post.
Diabolegal
Profile Joined June 2011
United States110 Posts
July 12 2011 19:07 GMT
#1025
On July 13 2011 03:22 Geiko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 03:15 Diabolegal wrote:
On July 13 2011 02:43 Geiko wrote:
The dude saying that you can scout with probes doesn't know what he is talking about. Whether you are doing the build, or doing a 1 rax FE, you will use your marines to clear out your base and the watch tower before the supply drop timing.
He also said something stupid like you couldn't expand after cutting workers... Well duh ! You're not going to cut workers if you are expanding...

It is also correct that the lower supply depot is vulnerable if you expand. This can be compensated by building an additional bunker to defend your FE.


Learn to read. I said fast expanding wouldn't be feasible after cutting workers; I didn't say you'd cut workers if you're expanding. I also said that the probe can hide in the NATURAL to see if and when you move out; I didn't say anything about it hiding in your main (her derp! there's a wall!) or holding the watchtower (which doesn't cover your natural anyway). Probes hide in natural expos all the time to put down proxy pylons and, of course, scout for early aggression, which this build telegraphs.

Saying that others don't know what they're talking about doesn't cover up the fact that YOU don't know what you're talking about. Finally, saying "he won't scout this" are famous (and stupid) last words. Anybody can scout when the enemy expands to his natural or moves out.


Lol ^^I think I know what I'm talking about more than anybody in this thread :p

By "clear out your base" I meant clear the natural, are you seriously saying you hadn't understood this ?

It's in the OP if you had bothered to read, and in all my replays if you had bothered to watch them. You use your first marines to prevent scouting. Unless your opponent has a super probe with cloak he will not be able to scout the scvs moving out.

We are talking about a regular FE with bottom wall off, I have no idea in the world why you would want to talk about an FE where you cut scvs...



It's not a "base" until there's...you know...a Command Center there. Furthermore, even if the scouting worker dies, the opponent can just send another one to the nat or along the attack path to wait for you to leave. This build is really easy to scout. Sorry broski.
Diamond Terran (NA)
Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France2049 Posts
July 12 2011 19:12 GMT
#1026
On July 13 2011 04:07 Diabolegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 03:22 Geiko wrote:
On July 13 2011 03:15 Diabolegal wrote:
On July 13 2011 02:43 Geiko wrote:
The dude saying that you can scout with probes doesn't know what he is talking about. Whether you are doing the build, or doing a 1 rax FE, you will use your marines to clear out your base and the watch tower before the supply drop timing.
He also said something stupid like you couldn't expand after cutting workers... Well duh ! You're not going to cut workers if you are expanding...

It is also correct that the lower supply depot is vulnerable if you expand. This can be compensated by building an additional bunker to defend your FE.


Learn to read. I said fast expanding wouldn't be feasible after cutting workers; I didn't say you'd cut workers if you're expanding. I also said that the probe can hide in the NATURAL to see if and when you move out; I didn't say anything about it hiding in your main (her derp! there's a wall!) or holding the watchtower (which doesn't cover your natural anyway). Probes hide in natural expos all the time to put down proxy pylons and, of course, scout for early aggression, which this build telegraphs.

Saying that others don't know what they're talking about doesn't cover up the fact that YOU don't know what you're talking about. Finally, saying "he won't scout this" are famous (and stupid) last words. Anybody can scout when the enemy expands to his natural or moves out.


Lol ^^I think I know what I'm talking about more than anybody in this thread :p

By "clear out your base" I meant clear the natural, are you seriously saying you hadn't understood this ?

It's in the OP if you had bothered to read, and in all my replays if you had bothered to watch them. You use your first marines to prevent scouting. Unless your opponent has a super probe with cloak he will not be able to scout the scvs moving out.

We are talking about a regular FE with bottom wall off, I have no idea in the world why you would want to talk about an FE where you cut scvs...



It's not a "base" until there's...you know...a Command Center there. Furthermore, even if the scouting worker dies, the opponent can just send another one to the nat or along the attack path to wait for you to leave. This build is really easy to scout. Sorry broski.


Ok......
I'm going to stop wasting my time with you now.
Good day
geiko.813 (EU)
Diabolegal
Profile Joined June 2011
United States110 Posts
July 12 2011 19:19 GMT
#1027
On July 13 2011 03:38 tuestresfat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 01:42 Diabolegal wrote:
On July 12 2011 12:47 tuestresfat wrote:
^Giving up a supply depot to be up a base in TvP, sounds worth it to me.

And lol at the guy (not you) who clearly as no idea what he's talking about


Being supply blocked and letting P into your base to scout you. Sounds worth it to me.

I love the "strategy" in these forums.

Are you actually that dumb or you just never learned to read.

I was going to write a reply elaborating what I meant, but reading the rest of your posts in this thread I can see you're just an arrogant and ignorant Plat player and you aren't worth my time.

It's idiots like you that bring down the standard we try and set at the strategy forums. If you don't like the standards here or simply can't understand it, don't read and don't post.


I like how you imply that my logical, fact-based posts are uninformed even though your posts have been nothing but diatribes and rebukes. Saying "______ doesn't know what he's talking about" and hurling insults degrades community standards more than anything I ever said.

You're obviously just a high school internet warrior who's not worth any more of my time. Enjoy your summer vacation, kid. Now, let your big brother back on his computer.

User was warned for this post
Diamond Terran (NA)
mythandier
Profile Joined January 2011
United States828 Posts
July 12 2011 19:28 GMT
#1028
Stop feeding obvious-troll-obviously-trolling.

This build still works though I tend to use it only on maps where bottom ramp wall-off is more legitimate (ie Shak) and bo3 series.
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
July 12 2011 19:30 GMT
#1029
On July 13 2011 04:19 Diabolegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 03:38 tuestresfat wrote:
On July 13 2011 01:42 Diabolegal wrote:
On July 12 2011 12:47 tuestresfat wrote:
^Giving up a supply depot to be up a base in TvP, sounds worth it to me.

And lol at the guy (not you) who clearly as no idea what he's talking about


Being supply blocked and letting P into your base to scout you. Sounds worth it to me.

I love the "strategy" in these forums.

Are you actually that dumb or you just never learned to read.

I was going to write a reply elaborating what I meant, but reading the rest of your posts in this thread I can see you're just an arrogant and ignorant Plat player and you aren't worth my time.

It's idiots like you that bring down the standard we try and set at the strategy forums. If you don't like the standards here or simply can't understand it, don't read and don't post.


I like how you imply that my logical, fact-based posts are uninformed even though your posts have been nothing but diatribes and rebukes. Saying "______ doesn't know what he's talking about" and hurling insults degrades community standards more than anything I ever said.

You're obviously just a high school internet warrior who's not worth any more of my time. Enjoy your summer vacation, kid. Now, let your big brother back on his computer.

I'm gonna take mythandier's advice.
Diabolegal
Profile Joined June 2011
United States110 Posts
July 12 2011 19:59 GMT
#1030
@ Geiko: I'm going to stop wasting my time with your build order.
@ tuestresfat: Good idea. You should definitely use this on Shakuras in a bo3. I, however, will stop feeding the trolls.

Dual wielding.
Diamond Terran (NA)
barrykp
Profile Joined August 2010
Ireland174 Posts
July 12 2011 20:49 GMT
#1031
hurling insults degrades community standards more than anything I ever said.


You're obviously just a high school internet warrior who's not worth any more of my time. Enjoy your summer vacation, kid. Now, let your big brother back on his computer.


Maybe you should practise what you preach hmm.

I think you misunderstood what was said about expanding btw - I think they were trying to say that the low ground wall off alone isn't enough to determine that it's cheese because someone could build an expansion behind it instead of cutting SCVs and using the call down.

Any time I've seen the low ground wall off in game I immediately prepare for the cheese. I think it is possible like you say to hang around with a scout to see when he moves out even if you have to keep a little bit of a safe distance. A marine or two outside his wall isn't enough to keep you so far away that you don't know pretty soon when he's moved out.
Lecture me some more on how to play please; I need help.
wklbishop
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1286 Posts
July 12 2011 20:59 GMT
#1032
On July 13 2011 04:59 Diabolegal wrote:
@ Geiko: I'm going to stop wasting my time with your build order.
@ tuestresfat: Good idea. You should definitely use this on Shakuras in a bo3. I, however, will stop feeding the trolls.

Dual wielding.


Dude... the guy made it to High Masters with this build and defeated well-known Grandmasters (not once but twice with different accounts) which means he has some practical experience whereas you and a lot of other players are just doing theorycrafting from what I can see.

I've read this thread from day 1 honestly and I am sick and tired of lower-ranked players insulting the guy. People need to really give the guy some respect for giving out this build which while not a good build to do all the time, a good build to add to your repertoire and pull out here and there.
Gameplay > Personality
Diabolegal
Profile Joined June 2011
United States110 Posts
July 12 2011 21:16 GMT
#1033
On July 13 2011 05:59 wklbishop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 04:59 Diabolegal wrote:
@ Geiko: I'm going to stop wasting my time with your build order.
@ tuestresfat: Good idea. You should definitely use this on Shakuras in a bo3. I, however, will stop feeding the trolls.

Dual wielding.


Dude... the guy made it to High Masters with this build and defeated well-known Grandmasters (not once but twice with different accounts) which means he has some practical experience whereas you and a lot of other players are just doing theorycrafting from what I can see.

I've read this thread from day 1 honestly and I am sick and tired of lower-ranked players insulting the guy. People need to really give the guy some respect for giving out this build which while not a good build to do all the time, a good build to add to your repertoire and pull out here and there.


CombatEX and RatzDeezer made it to high Grandmasters b/c of the cannon rush and proxy warpgate and stargate. By your rationale, we have no right to rebut anything they have to say about SC2 b/c they're ranked higher than us even though they're horrible players with cheesy builds. I'm sick of people making the fallacy of authority, but it's easier to attack someone's credibility than to address his argument.
Diamond Terran (NA)
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
July 12 2011 21:18 GMT
#1034
On July 13 2011 06:16 Diabolegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 05:59 wklbishop wrote:
On July 13 2011 04:59 Diabolegal wrote:
@ Geiko: I'm going to stop wasting my time with your build order.
@ tuestresfat: Good idea. You should definitely use this on Shakuras in a bo3. I, however, will stop feeding the trolls.

Dual wielding.


Dude... the guy made it to High Masters with this build and defeated well-known Grandmasters (not once but twice with different accounts) which means he has some practical experience whereas you and a lot of other players are just doing theorycrafting from what I can see.

I've read this thread from day 1 honestly and I am sick and tired of lower-ranked players insulting the guy. People need to really give the guy some respect for giving out this build which while not a good build to do all the time, a good build to add to your repertoire and pull out here and there.


CombatEX and RatzDeezer made it to high Grandmasters b/c of the cannon rush and proxy warpgate and stargate. By your rationale, we have no right to rebut anything they have to say about SC2 b/c they're ranked higher than us even though they're horrible players with cheesy builds. I'm sick of people making the fallacy of authority, but it's easier to attack someone's credibility than to address his argument.

Good call, it's a fallacious appeal to authority. What they do obviously doesn't work, just like this build.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Diabolegal
Profile Joined June 2011
United States110 Posts
July 12 2011 21:19 GMT
#1035
On July 13 2011 05:49 barrykp wrote:
Show nested quote +
hurling insults degrades community standards more than anything I ever said.


Show nested quote +
You're obviously just a high school internet warrior who's not worth any more of my time. Enjoy your summer vacation, kid. Now, let your big brother back on his computer.


Maybe you should practise what you preach hmm.

I think you misunderstood what was said about expanding btw - I think they were trying to say that the low ground wall off alone isn't enough to determine that it's cheese because someone could build an expansion behind it instead of cutting SCVs and using the call down.

Any time I've seen the low ground wall off in game I immediately prepare for the cheese. I think it is possible like you say to hang around with a scout to see when he moves out even if you have to keep a little bit of a safe distance. A marine or two outside his wall isn't enough to keep you so far away that you don't know pretty soon when he's moved out.


Self defense.
Diamond Terran (NA)
Supamang
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2298 Posts
July 12 2011 21:39 GMT
#1036
On July 13 2011 06:16 Diabolegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 05:59 wklbishop wrote:
On July 13 2011 04:59 Diabolegal wrote:
@ Geiko: I'm going to stop wasting my time with your build order.
@ tuestresfat: Good idea. You should definitely use this on Shakuras in a bo3. I, however, will stop feeding the trolls.

Dual wielding.


Dude... the guy made it to High Masters with this build and defeated well-known Grandmasters (not once but twice with different accounts) which means he has some practical experience whereas you and a lot of other players are just doing theorycrafting from what I can see.

I've read this thread from day 1 honestly and I am sick and tired of lower-ranked players insulting the guy. People need to really give the guy some respect for giving out this build which while not a good build to do all the time, a good build to add to your repertoire and pull out here and there.


CombatEX and RatzDeezer made it to high Grandmasters b/c of the cannon rush and proxy warpgate and stargate. By your rationale, we have no right to rebut anything they have to say about SC2 b/c they're ranked higher than us even though they're horrible players with cheesy builds. I'm sick of people making the fallacy of authority, but it's easier to attack someone's credibility than to address his argument.

No man. Dont call out logical fallacies that were not being used. His point was NOT that you dont have the right to criticize a build because of the person proposing it, his point was that you cant say this build doesnt work when there are many replays in the OP that clearly show that it does work. And it works against GM players

If you truly do value logical discussion, you will see and admit that the people you are arguing against are right and that you are wrong. Your theorycrafting is great, but you cant theorycraft and say a build doesnt work when people have actually used it and made it work

panzzzzz
Profile Joined April 2010
United States109 Posts
July 12 2011 22:11 GMT
#1037
I am a masters protoss player, and I have tried this on ladder...these days, it seems that when people scout the rax at the bottom of the ramp, they immediately overcompensate for the all-in. It won't work on people unless they try to cut corners (like the pros/high GM).

Mid to high masters zergs have all went fast banelings + multiple spines when they scout this, Terran put many bunkers up, and Protoss have even gone so far as to forge with 3 cannons on top of the ramp. This is of course only from my games that I have tried this build in, in masters.
drooL
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United Kingdom2108 Posts
July 12 2011 22:17 GMT
#1038
thanks for making me rage about this on ladder. i have yet to win against this stuff. but kudos to you sir. shows how many players still have much to learn
@nowSimon
Shamrock_
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
South Africa276 Posts
July 12 2011 22:17 GMT
#1039
This could be silly but given how widely known the bottom wall off has become, couldn't you use it to trick Z and P into making a bunch of units and structures they won't need?
This is my rifle, this is my gun; this is for fighting, this is for fun
Diabolegal
Profile Joined June 2011
United States110 Posts
July 12 2011 22:24 GMT
#1040
On July 13 2011 06:39 Supamang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 06:16 Diabolegal wrote:
On July 13 2011 05:59 wklbishop wrote:
On July 13 2011 04:59 Diabolegal wrote:
@ Geiko: I'm going to stop wasting my time with your build order.
@ tuestresfat: Good idea. You should definitely use this on Shakuras in a bo3. I, however, will stop feeding the trolls.

Dual wielding.


Dude... the guy made it to High Masters with this build and defeated well-known Grandmasters (not once but twice with different accounts) which means he has some practical experience whereas you and a lot of other players are just doing theorycrafting from what I can see.

I've read this thread from day 1 honestly and I am sick and tired of lower-ranked players insulting the guy. People need to really give the guy some respect for giving out this build which while not a good build to do all the time, a good build to add to your repertoire and pull out here and there.


CombatEX and RatzDeezer made it to high Grandmasters b/c of the cannon rush and proxy warpgate and stargate. By your rationale, we have no right to rebut anything they have to say about SC2 b/c they're ranked higher than us even though they're horrible players with cheesy builds. I'm sick of people making the fallacy of authority, but it's easier to attack someone's credibility than to address his argument.

No man. Dont call out logical fallacies that were not being used. His point was NOT that you dont have the right to criticize a build because of the person proposing it, his point was that you cant say this build doesnt work when there are many replays in the OP that clearly show that it does work. And it works against GM players

If you truly do value logical discussion, you will see and admit that the people you are arguing against are right and that you are wrong. Your theorycrafting is great, but you cant theorycraft and say a build doesnt work when people have actually used it and made it work



"I'm sick of lower-ranked players insulting the guy" (emphasis added) implies that it's only okay for higher-ranked players to insult the guy, as though their rank would make what they say valuable. That's an appeal to authority fallacy.

Furthermore, I NEVER said that this build doesn't work; I've used it successfully a few times. I said that it has a glaring weakness; namely, that it's easy to prepare for and fend off the all-in after doing some basic worker scouting. This is true of any other cheese. A worker can always patrol outside your base or hide in your natural to see when you're moving out. That's not theory; it happens all the time.
Diamond Terran (NA)
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