EPT
[G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league - Page 44
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Exodus67
United States2 Posts
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
would a blind 4gate do well against this? when scouting the rax and supply depot at the bottom of the ramp i mean. even if the terran isnt necessarily doing this build, the depot at the ramp is basically dead if you 4gate him correct? plus the 4gate would hold off the push pretty easily i would think with proper chrono boosts and unit choices. this is all just theory but i would like to hear some feedback! | ||
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Mr Pink
United Kingdom18 Posts
On May 26 2011 11:40 GomJabbar wrote: + Show Spoiler + Just faced this today in Diamond TvP. I want to thank this thread - because of the info here, I was able to scout and recognize this build and defend it easily by chronoboosting sentries. I'll probably be recording a short cast of that replay to demonstrate what I did to defend it. It really comes down to correctly identifying the build and making nonstop sentries. Cut the army in 3rds as it comes up the ramp, or just lock them out forever while making stuff. Terran's not mining, he's 100% all-in. It was a very easy to execute defense for anyone in any league. Edit: Here's the video on how to scout and defend against this build as Protoss: Hope it helps people! Thanks so much GomJabbar, thanks to your video I was able to smash this build the first time I encountered it on ladder. Contrary to the OP, this build is very very easy to beat as Protoss once scouted. Here's a replay for anyone interested. http://drop.sc/11633/d | ||
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Generalul
Romania114 Posts
 but is lame when they fail so bad at this they start cursing. I think one fellow even wished me to get aids or cancer ) | ||
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SolidMustard
France1515 Posts
On May 31 2011 03:09 FrankWalls wrote: hello fellow discussion-ers! i've only really faced this one time on the ladder, and im pretty sure i could have held it off with better micro/macro, but i have a question. would a blind 4gate do well against this? when scouting the rax and supply depot at the bottom of the ramp i mean. even if the terran isnt necessarily doing this build, the depot at the ramp is basically dead if you 4gate him correct? plus the 4gate would hold off the push pretty easily i would think with proper chrono boosts and unit choices. this is all just theory but i would like to hear some feedback! You're pretty dead if you're going four warp gates, the attack happens at 5:10 dude ! | ||
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tastocis
Canada14 Posts
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Moosy
Canada396 Posts
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Dapper_Cad
United Kingdom964 Posts
I saw the wall in and though "weird.." I did my fairly standard 1 rax expo, at about 4 mins(?) I started a bunker and sent 2 marines to a watch tower just in time to catch sight of all the SCVs moving up the map, my scout marines got caught by the advancing marines so I was 2 down. I defended with ALL my SCVs + the few marines I had around the ramp area I also went for a hellion instead of an addon at my just finished fac and started a second bunker. The first bunker was unfinished but a bunch of enemy SCVs focused it down which took some time. About the time all SCVs were dead he had 6+ marines left, my hellion popped, weakening them, my 2nd bunker finished and 1 marine jumped in a finished the job. Wish I'd saved the replay. Great to read this though as now I know about the huge tell of the wall in at the bottom of the ramp. If I see it again I just need to fit in a bunker a bit earlier. A fairly minor deviation if it's a fake, but, if it's for real its basically an unbreakable defence against this as the OP says. This is a build that is going to suffer from over exposure very fast. Still, cool as hell to go so far with your own build. Grats. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 31 2011 11:50 Lobotomist wrote: This is the type of thing that makes me hate terran players. I'm actually very happy that this thread was ever made. A lot of terrans are doing this and it's basically free ladder points. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
First, you play protoss but can rank up much higher by doing 1 build in all 3 matchups with terran. Cheese is way too strong in SC2. Second, even playing against pro's you seem to only loose to blind counters (they see the low ground wall and coin flip I guess) Third, Every time I see one of these "Cheese into masters" type threads, it is always pointed out that it's easiest to win with vs toss. (Yet I never see any threads about how protoss can cheese into masters.) Fourth, even when protoss knows what your doing it takes great micro to beat, but zerg and terran can actually counter the build. It just..... makes me sad. Good job with the op (sincerely), pretty cool that you were able to do this. Thanks for sharing. You're awesome <3 PS. Terran players, just 1 rax expo with a wall at the low ground  They have to blind counter the marine build. What choice do they have? | ||
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xre
France9 Posts
 I guess it has become too common.Opponent just scouts the low-ground wall and then goes for bunker / spines / chrono units and that's it. Otherwise nice post ! | ||
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
I just beat a master protoss who had scouted me going for 3 racks and still lost.... This works ^^ You just have to do it right and not just practise it once and go on the ladder and hope to win | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On May 31 2011 12:30 Reborn8u wrote: There are a few things that made me sad when I read this. (most are because of the fact that I play toss) First, you play protoss but can rank up much higher by doing 1 build in all 3 matchups with terran. Cheese is way too strong in SC2. Second, even playing against pro's you seem to only loose to blind counters (they see the low ground wall and coin flip I guess) Third, Every time I see one of these "Cheese into masters" type threads, it is always pointed out that it's easiest to win with vs toss. (Yet I never see any threads about how protoss can cheese into masters.) Fourth, even when protoss knows what your doing it takes great micro to beat, but zerg and terran can actually counter the build. It just..... makes me sad. Good job with the op (sincerely), pretty cool that you were able to do this. Thanks for sharing. You're awesome <3 PS. Terran players, just 1 rax expo with a wall at the low ground They have to blind counter the marine build. What choice do they have? I'm not sure placing a forcefield on the ramp is considered "great micro". Yea 1rax FE would be a nice mindgame for Terran. Just have to be sure to prevent a later scout by Toss on whether or not the supply drop was used. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On May 31 2011 12:30 Reborn8u wrote: There are a few things that made me sad when I read this. (most are because of the fact that I play toss) First, you play protoss but can rank up much higher by doing 1 build in all 3 matchups with terran. Cheese is way too strong in SC2. Second, even playing against pro's you seem to only loose to blind counters (they see the low ground wall and coin flip I guess) Third, Every time I see one of these "Cheese into masters" type threads, it is always pointed out that it's easiest to win with vs toss. (Yet I never see any threads about how protoss can cheese into masters.) Fourth, even when protoss knows what your doing it takes great micro to beat, but zerg and terran can actually counter the build. It just..... makes me sad. Good job with the op (sincerely), pretty cool that you were able to do this. Thanks for sharing. You're awesome <3 PS. Terran players, just 1 rax expo with a wall at the low ground They have to blind counter the marine build. What choice do they have? Okay, really not sure if serious. Protoss has the strongest and widest array of 1 base pushes and you're by no_freaking_means the most vulnerable race against all-ins - that'd be zerg by five thousand miles (at all levels.) And yes, there are several protoss players reaching GM with nothing but timing pushes (IIRC there's even a mid GM toss on EU only doing 4g.) | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:33 EmilA wrote: Okay, really not sure if serious. Protoss has the strongest and widest array of 1 base pushes...) Really? I believe Terran has far more, since they can access more of their tech tree rapidly. That said, Protoss still has a lot of powerful builds. One basing shouldn't be as powerful as it is. It is not only not really that fun to play, but also it isn't fun to watch, which is why the GSL and such get big macro maps with long rush distances, to discourage 1 basing. | ||
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RM_12
201 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:33 EmilA wrote: Okay, really not sure if serious. Protoss has the strongest and widest array of 1 base pushes and you're by no_freaking_means the most vulnerable race against all-ins - that'd be zerg by five thousand miles (at all levels.) And yes, there are several protoss players reaching GM with nothing but timing pushes (IIRC there's even a mid GM toss on EU only doing 4g.) The thing is, with standard protos openings your units are a little delayed and its harder to defend anything before 6min mark for protoss. Terran can make bunkers and wallin always because his units are always ranged demage dealers, and zerg can put spinecrawlers after pool, which he gets anyway, while toss cannot react as quickly. If you dont have a small ramp you are screwed. (also you are wrong, terran has the most 1 base pushes) | ||
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Rumeye
Romania17 Posts
Terrans die even with a bunker if they don't have enough marines (no bunker insta win) and I got matched against p only once but that was pretty easy even though the guy was good. So zergs should stop whining about this. Make 12-14 lings, pull most of your drones and queens and you have no problem. Every zerg that I killed with this pulled only a few drones or he pulled them too late. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 31 2011 02:51 Exodus67 wrote: Hey I'm only platinum and have not laddered recently, but if I see an all in w/ scvs it only makes sense to pull probes(workers). At 5 mins, you'll have ~3 gateway units + more than 20 probes, which if you engaged in the middle of your base you could get a nice surround. Then again, I haven't played against this build so don't take my word as law I just don't understand people like this. The OP has done this hundreds of times and beaten grandmaster league players. You're an average level player who has never used it and never faced it. Why do you think your opinion is worth adding? On June 01 2011 03:07 xre wrote: 1k euro diamond here. Just gave this a try, it doesn't work at all I guess it has become too common.Opponent just scouts the low-ground wall and then goes for bunker / spines / chrono units and that's it. No one ever claimed this rush is literally unstoppable. But here's what you do now- do the low ground walloff, watch zerg spam out spinecrawlers and lings (or go 1-base banelings) instead of continuing to drone up, while you tech straight to banshees and cloak. It becomes a 50/50 guessing game where if the zerg guesses right he gets a balanced game anyone can win, and if he guesses wrong it's an automatic loss. Starcraft should not be a stupid blind guessing game. I think the vast majority of people who think this build is not broken are either in gold league and are defending it because the terran is building wrong, arriving late, and not controlling his units well, or are never ever facing opponents who do low walloff into tech, or are Grandmaster level players who can survive attacks that us mere humans cannot. But the majority of diamond and masters league terrans are capable of pulling off this build correctly, and at this level it's impossible to defend without severely overcommitting to defense to the point where you're screwed if he doesn't do the all-in rush. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On May 31 2011 03:25 Mr Pink wrote: Thanks so much GomJabbar, thanks to your video I was able to smash this build the first time I encountered it on ladder. Contrary to the OP, this build is very very easy to beat as Protoss once scouted. Here's a replay for anyone interested. http://drop.sc/11633/d That terran executed it so, sooo badly. He arrived at your ramp at the 6 minute mark, that's not even remotely close to the right timing. Still, you did prepare for it decently. At the time he should have arrived, you had one sentry out... FF the ramp and your second sentry comes out, FF it again and you've now delayed him to 5:40 or so. He then moves up your ramp with the marines and SCVs against your 20 probes, 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 2 sentries... still should have been a decent fight. I'd recommend at least a third sentry before switching to stalkers. Fortunately for protoss this isn't too bad of a build in case it turns out the terran was faking the rush, you can turn it into a 3-gate expand build. | ||
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