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holy shit is this ever hard to hold off as zerg O________O
just went against it on shattered temple, 15 hatch 15 pool and didnt make a gas because I scouted the depot at the bottom of the ramp, remembered this thread and opted for spine instead (dunno if that's the correct choice, doesn't feel like you can get banes up in time but idk.. having only a couple slow banes isn't that good unless the terran fucks up or you have speedling support) he pulled all his scvs and I ended up surviving with 2 hatch, a couple lings, a crippled queen, a spine and 5 drones T_T
does anyone know if there's a better way to hold this off?
(here's the replay btw, I won but it was hard)
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On May 28 2011 05:41 MonsieurGrimm wrote:holy shit is this ever hard to hold off as zerg O________O just went against it on shattered temple, 15 hatch 15 pool and didnt make a gas because I scouted the depot at the bottom of the ramp, remembered this thread and opted for spine instead (dunno if that's the correct choice, doesn't feel like you can get banes up in time but idk.. having only a couple slow banes isn't that good unless the terran fucks up or you have speedling support) he pulled all his scvs and I ended up surviving with 2 hatch, a couple lings, a crippled queen, a spine and 5 drones T_T does anyone know if there's a better way to hold this off? (here's the replay btw, I won but it was hard)
Really good timing with the spine, your mistakes in that replay were overextending yourself off creep. You essentially tossed him free zerglings and drones. And you could've simply thrown down a second spine crawler along the left side of your natural and shut down his movements of sneaking around. I felt you pulled too many drones as well, you want to continue pulling in minerals so you can continue pumping out lings and pull ahead economically. He also made the mistake of rallying his Marines to the center.
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On May 28 2011 05:41 MonsieurGrimm wrote:holy shit is this ever hard to hold off as zerg O________O just went against it on shattered temple, 15 hatch 15 pool and didnt make a gas because I scouted the depot at the bottom of the ramp, remembered this thread and opted for spine instead (dunno if that's the correct choice, doesn't feel like you can get banes up in time but idk.. having only a couple slow banes isn't that good unless the terran fucks up or you have speedling support) he pulled all his scvs and I ended up surviving with 2 hatch, a couple lings, a crippled queen, a spine and 5 drones T_T does anyone know if there's a better way to hold this off? (here's the replay btw, I won but it was hard)
14 pool 14 gas > banelings holds it like it's a joke
I just open 14 pool then hatch if I don't scout this build. I'll start 15 hatching again when the novelty dies off.
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On May 28 2011 06:08 ViperaViRuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 05:41 MonsieurGrimm wrote:holy shit is this ever hard to hold off as zerg O________O just went against it on shattered temple, 15 hatch 15 pool and didnt make a gas because I scouted the depot at the bottom of the ramp, remembered this thread and opted for spine instead (dunno if that's the correct choice, doesn't feel like you can get banes up in time but idk.. having only a couple slow banes isn't that good unless the terran fucks up or you have speedling support) he pulled all his scvs and I ended up surviving with 2 hatch, a couple lings, a crippled queen, a spine and 5 drones T_T does anyone know if there's a better way to hold this off? (here's the replay btw, I won but it was hard) Really good timing with the spine, your mistakes in that replay were overextending yourself off creep. You essentially tossed him free zerglings and drones. And you could've simply thrown down a second spine crawler along the left side of your natural and shut down his movements of sneaking around. I felt you pulled too many drones as well, you want to continue pulling in minerals so you can continue pumping out lings and pull ahead economically. He also made the mistake of rallying his Marines to the center.
thanks ^__^ yeah I think double spine might be better when you're nogassing than making more lings tbh, I made a spine and then 2 pairs of lings but I could have just made two spines.. lings arent that useful when youre nogassing because speed is going to take a long time, but spines are pretty good. my concern is that if he's doing some sort of 1 rax expand but puts his depot and rax at the bottom, you'll be in a pretty bad shape as Z with 2 spines.
other than that, yeah I overextended :/ I have pretty bad micro
On May 28 2011 06:10 stevarius wrote:
14 pool 14 gas > banelings holds it like it's a joke
I just open 14 pool then hatch if I don't scout this build. I'll start 15 hatching again when the novelty dies off.
hmm, yeah that gives you better options for counterpressure if he's not doing the 3rax, and if he's doing it he straight up dies, but I'd be hesitant to give up 15 hatch so soon.
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terran here but everyone seems to know this and the bottom wall off so is there any alternative doing this build like hiding barracks?
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y dont u just proxy the 2 rax... and deny scouting on the supply drop
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On May 29 2011 15:16 fy12345 wrote:
y dont u just proxy the 2 rax... and deny scouting on the supply drop
or you can just build a supply depo instead of the drop it realy makes almost no difference in the atack
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United States123 Posts
Mid-level diamond player here; figured I'd give it a go.
I went 15-3 tonight. My three losses were as follows:
Zerg - six roaches popped at 4:45 and I lost a very close battle
Protoss - went blind forge first, all buildings hugged nexus
Protoss - got through to scout on a map with a wide ramp, cannoned in base right as I arrived
Overall, it's a very solid build and players were commenting (when they weren't bm'ing out of frustration), that they're seeing it more and more every day. I feel like once the build becomes more popular, and you start seeing more blind counters to it, a counter scout for the Terran player should allow them to go into a FE and take advantage of a macro lead.
I feel like this could have a decent effect on early Terran meta-game.
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This build forced me to change my build order to include an early bunker. Very easy to defend as terran, Ive seen this build several time in the last few days
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I don't like to cheese personally, but I still got some meta-use of this build. Against zerg I 1 rax orbital FE with downramp wall, and after reading this thread I modified my build to supply call instead of mule, it still gives a pretty good flow, and it's worth it to see zergs totally freak out and make a million lings and spines while I expand safely!
Metagaming your way to GM (diamond) league!
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This build is just too good, Gecko you genius I got from gold to diamond in a single day with this cheese, rofl ! The best part of it is that since people are beginning to figure it out, you can just let them scout the supply call-down and think you're gonna throw the all-in to their face and instead you can just safely expand or tech to fast banshees or anything else, letting your opponent wasting his money on useless defenses !
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12 scout, 15 hatch, 14 pool detects and holds this pretty easily.
1 spine at front of hatch near ramp, 1 spine behind hatch preventing expo snipe, mass slow lings.
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Think the main retarded thing with this is that the barracks depot wall is like a give away to this but you dont actually know, terran could be doing anything he wants and requires such a specific reaction to survive that you cant survive other stuff
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I've held off this style of early aggression as protoss, as i favour zealot sentry, instead of stalkers. - I can't say i've faced this exact build but i've definetly faced SCV all ins. I find that if i scout and chrono the sentries, I can have enough force fields to split and negate the army while tearing through the trapped half with zealots. - I can only assume the attacks i've faced were similar due to the amount of SCVs, and immediate ragequit from my opponents :D
But I do have to admit it's become a gamble, as i've seen this build many times recently. I hate to blindly cannon or do any sort of unbased strategy due to the games going on in my mind, but it seems like the only definitve way to hold this off if you dont scout at 9 and reach your opponents base on the first try. - Especially on close spawn position maps.
I don't even see how blizzard could nerf this particular build without nullifying early terran aggression... But this seems too damn powerful D:
Does anyone have ways of holding this off without doing anything different designed for holding this off, because i feel like those sort of blind strategies would put a player needlessly behind at times.
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lolol, well at least we know this build won't get you into Code S anytime soon
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I am a mid diamond player and I decided to try this build. However, it fails terribly for me. I think my execution of it is decent.
This is a typical TvT where he has a bunker meaning the build is stopped 100%. I almost killed it in time but I think thats the opponent's mistake.
http://www.mediafire.com/?k59x97f3ngyq9zu
This is a game vs Z. He builds two spines crawlers and manages to hold it off. Since he probably has more drones than me, with queens and a few lings, it will out number my marines.
http://www.mediafire.com/?gw94yqznvban418
This is a typical TvP game. He goes standard and manages one last warp in on stalkers to outnumber my units.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ye61a8g5n9t185z
I'm not sure how everyone is doing so well with this build because I am having a lot of trouble with it. Im pretty sure there is a dead giveaway when you see a low rax wall off. Hearing other people's sucess stories make me sad.
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On May 30 2011 01:01 burnswuff wrote:I am a mid diamond player and I decided to try this build. However, it fails terribly for me. I think my execution of it is decent. This is a typical TvT where he has a bunker meaning the build is stopped 100%. I almost killed it in time but I think thats the opponent's mistake. http://www.mediafire.com/?k59x97f3ngyq9zuThis is a game vs Z. He builds two spines crawlers and manages to hold it off. Since he probably has more drones than me, with queens and a few lings, it will out number my marines. http://www.mediafire.com/?gw94yqznvban418This is a typical TvP game. He goes standard and manages one last warp in on stalkers to outnumber my units. http://www.mediafire.com/?ye61a8g5n9t185zI'm not sure how everyone is doing so well with this build because I am having a lot of trouble with it. Im pretty sure there is a dead giveaway when you see a low rax wall off. Hearing other people's sucess stories make me sad.
I just watched the TvP and you don't execute it correctly, it really has to be perfectly timed in order to succeed. A few mistakes I saw :
- you begin your third barrack late
- you pull your SCVs off the line too early. That's the main thing. Since SCVs are faster than marines you don't need to send them first, you have to send the marines before in order to have the whole army arriving at your opponent's base at the same time. If no timing mistake before, you should pull SCVs off the mineral line when you're at 24 supply and just paid for marines number 25 26 and 27. (you should be at his ramp with everything at around 5:10 if everything went well)
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I've used this build a lot on ladder, and I think it's absolutely beautiful. The timings need to be extremely precise for it to work, but when it does, it's wonderful.
I've since modified the build a little bit to have 1 less marine, but a full wall at top of ramp faster, and I think it works slightly better.
For me, against zerg is the hardest matchup with this build. If he does Spanishiwa (which everyone does against Terran anyway) and runs around with his drones without engaging while waiting for lings, you're kind of screwed. I think maybe it might be best to focus his expo and run away.
Versus protoss, the worst you can see is 3 stalkers already build, but with scv surrounds, it's still very easy.
Against Terran, even if he has a bunker, as long as he doesn't entirely know this build, you can focus it down and win the game >50% of the time. All that matters is he has less than 5 scvs beside the bunker ready to repair.
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Hey. First post to comment on this cheese. 900-point master here. I usually main protoss but went ahead and tried this build.
So far, 50% win ratio for about 10-15 games. I guess there were some games where I could've easily won but failed on micro, macro or even both. Bottom line is, this build is crazy good.
I do a bit of variation than the OP's build with the low ramp wall-off. I do a complete wall-off on top ramp instead and avoids supply drop. Build order:
10/11 supply depot (rally 9th scv to top ramp)
11/19 barracks (build with scv that finished depot and scout after)
-- cut one scv (save for 2nd barracks)
11/19 barracks (pull at 100 minerals to finish wall-off)
-- make one last scv (rally to build 3rd barracks)
12-17/19 marines (take watch towers)
17/19 supply depot (without cutting marines)
22/27 orbital command (this is as you move out)
This way, it's less obvious and you can drop mule before you attack. 10 marines with 12 scvs @ 4:30, and the rest are coming. Just make sure you drop mules ASAP or the reinforcements will be delayed and could cause the game.
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On May 30 2011 00:10 teamsolid wrote:lolol, well at least we know this build won't get you into Code S anytime soon
Owwwwwwwwwwch.....Burn
Thanks for the build, I have Terran as my off race and this'll def come in handy.
How does this build fare against cannon wall-offs?
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EPT
