|
On May 17 2011, shawnyee wrote:
so, i got this build my 2 first games today from 2 different ts, totaly killed my spirit and had to check what you guys had cooked up, is there any way to stop it whitout blindly countering once you see the
wall of?
First you gotta tell us what race you play most, or the race you need advice with...
|
Reminds me of that guy who 7pooled his way into the top 400 on NA. Cheese is a little strong for a ladder scenario. Oh well, guess we'll have to deal with the Combat-Exes as they come. It's good practice in some respects.
Congrats on making a strong pressure build.
|
On May 17 2011 19:11, Acritter wrote:
Congrats on making a strong pressure build.
Lol...you mean cheese? Cheese literally means pressure builds...
User was warned for this post
|
Ok I feel realy bad..I'm reading how to counter, I saw reps and still I died again to this all in:D I saw that rax and deepo on the bottom. I've started chrono 2stalkers (you can't have warpgate on time in 1.3.3patch) to kite his push and started to build 2'th gate and first sentry. And my weak stalker micro+only 1 field on the ramp vs 1a mariens+scv= I died again I feel that protoss must build forge and canons on ramp to defend. But if terran just fake 3rax and make a fast expand...
I think that there is still many maps on ladder that are simply to small and early push come to fast.
|
Countering it without scouting and without bunker by SjoW ^^
Very close game, I think with better micro i could have won...
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209585.jpg)
|
On May 17 2011 20:23 Geiko wrote:
Countering it without scouting and without bunker by SjoW ^^
Very close game, I think with better micro i could have won...
Did you random? Kind of weird that he walled his ramp. I agree that you most likely would have won if you microed. You had more marines and you lost a lot of SCV while your marines were blasting the wall.
|
So you are teaching an allin. Good job, will probably work one out of 10 times if you face the same player ever again. Its like saying "4 Gate your way into grandmasters" because it certainly works, but won't make you any better.
As Terran
-> bunker at top of your ramp. If you are not superslow with pulling scvs, you can hold off the attack pretty handily. Even if he goes for 5 barracks.
As Protoss
-> you need 1 early sentry and at best early 2 gateways so you can chrono (or warp) stalker(sentry. Also have to pull all probes - its allin, so treat it like one.
As Zerg
-> SPAM Zerglings, you won't have enough roaches out by the time, and spinecrawlers won't help that much. If you see Terran clearing both watchtowers with marines, an attack is certain, because no one would move out with 3 marines each in early game vs Zerg, since you will 100% lose them if you can't support an attack.
Pull your queens, build mass ling and pull all drones to fend of the attack.
|
Haha, if someone was gonna succeed defending it unscouted, it sure as hell was gonna be SjoW
|
Feels like every kid who cares more about what position they have in their division or what league they are in is doing this shit now. But if you see the low wall-off and you have the feeling this is coming, just try to sneak an svc/probe/drone to check for the supply drop.
Sure it can be a very deadly push if you don't see it coming but now when it has getting so much attention and the wall-off + supply drop is so obvious it can be defended. But now you can also turn it into a mind game with the low wall-off.
Really like how you built up the thread tho Geiko, with reps, reps how to counter etc. GJgJ!
|
Ran into this twice while laddering yesterday and owned them hard lol
User was warned for this post
|
On May 17 2011 15:56 DreamRaider wrote:
i went against this build and i fended it off very successfully. This build is very weak and predictable.
grandmasters are losing to it while clearly being miles away more skilled than the OP. How this build can be weak?
|
On May 17 2011 20:44 mTw|NarutO wrote:
So you are teaching an allin. Good job, will probably work one out of 10 times if you face the same player ever again. Its like saying "4 Gate your way into grandmasters" because it certainly works, but won't make you any better.
As Terran
-> bunker at top of your ramp. If you are not superslow with pulling scvs, you can hold off the attack pretty handily. Even if he goes for 5 barracks.
As Protoss
-> you need 1 early sentry and at best early 2 gateways so you can chrono (or warp) stalker(sentry. Also have to pull all probes - its allin, so treat it like one.
As Zerg
-> SPAM Zerglings, you won't have enough roaches out by the time, and spinecrawlers won't help that much. If you see Terran clearing both watchtowers with marines, an attack is certain, because no one would move out with 3 marines each in early game vs Zerg, since you will 100% lose them if you can't support an attack.
Pull your queens, build mass ling and pull all drones to fend of the attack.
While the Terran advice is good (albeit obvious), the protoss advice is bad and the zerg advice is worse.
As someone who did this build for about a month before this thread was posted, I can tell you both things you recommend are not seriously viable counters
Protoss
-> If you see a low ramp wall, it doesn't mean it's this 3rax all-in. It does mean there's impending cheese. Three things prompt a terran to low-ramp wall: special variant of 1-rax FE, 2-port banshee, and this 3-rax all-in. Since banshees will outrange and shit on sentries, that's not a good idea, and since sentries are slow, you'll never get in position to harass that ramp wall.
Instead, get STALKERS and be aggressive with them. One stalker can kill 3-4 marines before they get to the base, and forces you to reveal your hand, attack later, or just take it while you push.
When you get your first stalker out (DONT BUILD SENTRIES IF YOU PLAY AGAINST LOW WALL TERRAN) aim to attack his depot at the bottom wall, and just generally harass him. He can't clear the map or push your stalker away without tipping his hand, and if he opted for a 2-port, then he's going to die.
Again, don't make sentries unless you want to die, and don't pull your probes unless you want to die. 2 stalkers and a zealot can easily handle this with good micro.
While I had tremendous success with this on NA and SEA, I had marginal success on Korean ladder because the players there just generally have superior micro to me, and even with limited stalkers, one well-micro'd stalker is going to rape your army.
Zerg
If you spam zerglings against this build, you might hold the 3-rax off, but you've lost the game if he went 1-rax FE or 2-port, or just walled the low ramp to be a jerk (I do this a lot anyway when I offrace terran so I can bait some failed aggression).
The travel time from ramp to nat is roughly 40 seconds on every map. If you make 1 spine, and throw down 2 more when you see this push coming, you'll be in good shape.
You do need lings, but you won't have fast lings. You need to delay engagement as long as possible, and if he's stupid enough to go for your nat, let him have it.
Your best friend is time, and attack-moving with drones/lings is a sure-fire way to get owned by this build.
This is certainly the toughest to stop as zerg, but with good early scouting (I almost always 9 scout vs terran), you need to be aggressive with those early lings. Terran will always seek to get map control fast and keep it with this build, and if you can trade lings for marines, you cripple the effectiveness of this build.
Again, as with Protoss Stalkers, BE AGGRESSIVE with those lings, don't sit in your base. Force engagement on his side of the map to delay before he gets all his marines together, and force him to delay his push.
On May 17 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 15:56 DreamRaider wrote:
i went against this build and i fended it off very successfully. This build is very weak and predictable. grandmasters are losing to it while clearly being miles away more skilled than the OP. How this build can be weak?
It's weak because knowing about it hard counters it. Just knowing that this build exists is enough to give yourself the impetus to know what to do in future situations. The reason this build was awesome is because people didn't know about it. Now that the cat's out of the bag, this will be a silver-level cheese in no time (just like the 3rr speedling even before the sentry buff).
|
While I agree that you need a stalker or two to be agressive with, you absolutely need a sentry to forcefield your ramp at least once against an ALL SCV + 20 Marine Push. I do often no gas expand against Protoss and I can beat 8+ Stalkers easily with 20 Marines on a not superwide open area (which your main is not). If you think you can defend without pulling probes and with just 2 stalkers against all scvs + 10-20 Marines.. no way.
And as a grandmaster myself who playes against some of the best Zergs (DIMAGA in my team) I can tell you, you do not engage the Terran while he is moving to you. You sit back, because for every second he's not mining he will lose ground against your still mining production.
He can probably spend few saved minerals and send 5-8 marines as reinforcements but you can easily stall 30 seconds and have fresh 24 lings. While your army might be inferior when he starts the attack, it will probably be superior when he hits your base.
;-)!
|
This is not too strong if you know it's coming (which everyone does when they see walloff with supply drop).
This all-in is the same as all the others. Bunker rush with all scv's, tank/marine all-in or whatever. They are all easy to do, and EVERYONE will lose to them sometime, even the best. But you will not get to grandmasters doing it as soon as people know it's coming.
Sort of like how 2 rax killed 80% of all zergs one time, now it's just standard and every zerg in the world knows how to hold it off. I've faced this build 5 times now, and every time i've been able to hold it off, mainly because i've read this thread so i know what's coming  If you're in gold, dont think that this will get you to grand masters. I think that there is some delusion among players that if you just do the right strat you will get to masters or whatever (4 gate, 2 rax or this). This was done by a masters player which is why he could get so high. Yea he might've only been masters with protoss, but if you dont plan on playing a game that lasts more than 5 mins then it doesnt matter which race you are, the skills are universal.
That said, this is a really well written thread, with some great replays, wish there were more posts like this It's a really good build to just have in case you get frustrated or get a bad map or something, and if you're having trouble with a matchup then by all means you should do this. But it wont get you to GM or masters if you dont already have at least diamond skills.
|
i cant say how many times this happened to me today on the ladder, i thought it was extremely weird how this just hit the ladder hard today and i noticed everytime they had a supple depot with the call down, and herews the post on TL..
um im gonna join the crowd that calls u a cheesey newb. lol only cus i lsot to it 10 times today and didnt expect everyone to do it. but gj figuring out a sick build with the call down..
|
i find it very interesting that a platinum player can get top masterleague just by doing the same cheese over and over again, also the counter to this build seems to have to be blind, even the protoss microing stalkers across the map seems risky because of the chance of marauders, overall good job, this is pretty awesome, can't wait to get stomped on the ladder with this.
|
On May 17 2011 21:36 Shadowlash wrote:
i find it very interesting that a platinum player can get top masterleague just by doing the same cheese over and over again, also the counter to this build seems to have to be blind, even the protoss microing stalkers across the map seems risky because of the chance of marauders, overall good job, this is pretty awesome, can't wait to get stomped on the ladder with this.
He's actually masters. His terran is bad, but when you're doing a build like this it doesnt really matter what race you are. I could proxy 2 gate as protoss even though i've never played protoss and probably be wayyy better than my standard protoss is. But that's because race doesnt matter when the game is 5 mins long. I could 6 pool as zerg and probably get platinum even though my zerg is only like silver level, but a silver level zerg probably couldn't 6 pool to platinum. If that makes any sense
Respect to the OP though, very well thought out build.
|
God dangnit this buildis super insanely ultra powerful, I'm starting to believe it is OP.
5 wins in 40 minutes. 1 loss because I herped and was too busy reading the BO in this. I usually have enough time to play 1 game per day, with 1 wins max. But this build is so fast so hard to stop, I can play 6 games in a row and they all last less than a couple minutes!
I have actually thought of some add-on to make this strat even strong, but I'm really hesitating on should I talk about it. The poor protoss, they really dont stand a chance...
|
Well written OP as far as guides go, but I'd like to just clarify, isn't this basically another form of marine/scv all-in, or are we saying this is THE most optimized marine/scv all-in which hits at 4:30?
I've seen a bunch of other guides for this cheese on the forums before, just wondering what makes this one different?
thanks!
|
France12886 Posts
On May 17 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 15:56 DreamRaider wrote:
i went against this build and i fended it off very successfully. This build is very weak and predictable. grandmasters are losing to it while clearly being miles away more skilled than the OP. How this build can be weak?
Grandmaster are greedy on ladder and since its ladder play, they don't really care about losing.
If you try this in some cup, they will scout soon enough : be careful, plus they will probably check your historic and you are kinda screwed. It works better on good players the first time you are paired against them.
Anyways this kind of all-in is not really for "real games" purpose good cuz you can't mindgame and 12scv is in itself a far too huge commitment (compared to some 12/14 2rax play when you don't attack)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
