EPT
the terran opponent blocked the entrance on the low ground so I couldn't see if he was getting gas, and I had 2 gateway.[G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league - Page 17
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TDC
United States197 Posts
the terran opponent blocked the entrance on the low ground so I couldn't see if he was getting gas, and I had 2 gateway. | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
Why get the Orbital Command (150 minerals) just to call down supply (depot=100 minerals)? Since ALL SCVs are pulled, even a mule later in the game isn't going to be that helpful with additional production...why not save some minerals and just build the depot? | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:22 barkles wrote: Question (Sorry if this has been addressed before...17 pages is a lot): Why get the Orbital Command (150 minerals) just to call down supply (depot=100 minerals)? Since ALL SCVs are pulled, even a mule later in the game isn't going to be that helpful with additional production...why not save some minerals and just build the depot? Because at no point in the early game to you have 100 minerals to spare, and you can't wait for the MULE to mine. | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:24 [Atomic]Peace wrote: Because at no point in the early game to you have 100 minerals to spare, and you can't wait for the MULE to mine. Umm...what about the point in the game when you have 150 minerals for the OC? Or were you being sarcastic? For clarity, I'm suggesting skipping the Orbital entirely to build a supply depot instead. | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:22 barkles wrote: Question (Sorry if this has been addressed before...17 pages is a lot): Why get the Orbital Command (150 minerals) just to call down supply (depot=100 minerals)? Since ALL SCVs are pulled, even a mule later in the game isn't going to be that helpful with additional production...why not save some minerals and just build the depot? Income from the mule lets you constantly reinforce even after pulling your SCVs. There's an alterative version posted on about page 5 with a supply depot and later orbital On May 16 2011 12:28 michaelhasanalias wrote: + Show Spoiler + Also, the variation you do is far weaker than the one i've been doing , but hits about the same time. 10 depot 11 rax (wall off bot) 11 rax 12 rax 15 depot 24 OC unless your macro slips 15 marines and 12 SCVs at 5min.... was pretty sure I posted that a while back but if not, then cheers anyway. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
Can't believe the amount of criticism you are getting for this. Don't mind the nay-sayers. I think the OP is fun, the title made me read this (which helped me later!). I also don't think there's anything wrong with cheesing though I rarely do so. I'm really happy it exists and think it makes the game more fun for me even when i get cheesed (though i do still get mad sometimes, its mostly at myself). Worse case scenario you exposed something that's broken.. A good thing. Best case scenario you added variety to the game: a very good thing. (I posted this in my previous reply, but to make a point I'll repeat part of my previous post): I play Protoss, I read this before laddering today, first T I got this did this too me. And I scouted it super late). After his attack I was left with 2 probes and 2 stalkers and some money in the bank, If I didn't read your OP I probably woulda quit thinking he may have had leftover scvs + mules. Because of you I won as a P edit: I do have a question for you.. both games I won vs this but my opponents didn't look like they microed well (high Diamond). Do you think 12-13gate with choroned zealot zealot stalker (and later stalkers) will stop this on its own, or is sentry necessary for extra delay vs properly microed scvs and rines? I'm asking cause cause I had success with this aggressive opening in general vs T, and it seems to have stopped this without having to change much, but idk if I just got lucky | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:26 drop271 wrote: Income from the mule lets you constantly reinforce even after pulling your SCVs. There's an alterative version posted on about page 5 with a supply depot and later orbital From Liquipedia: MULEs are as effective as around 4 (±0.3) SCVs, as SCVs average 42-43 minerals per game-minute on blue mineral patches (for two or less workers per patch). 42 minerals per minute is hardly enough for constant reinforcement from 3 barracks... I'm just curious as to the timing: does the MULE income (and subsequent marine build and rallying time) come soon enough to warrant the slight increase in mineral cost of building the OC? | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:36 barkles wrote: From Liquipedia: MULEs are as effective as around 4 (±0.3) SCVs, as SCVs average 42-43 minerals per game-minute on blue mineral patches (for two or less workers per patch). 42 minerals per minute is hardly enough for constant reinforcement from 3 barracks... I'm just curious as to the timing: does the MULE income (and subsequent marine build and rallying time) come soon enough to warrant the slight increase in mineral cost of building the OC? Thats per SCV, ie 168 mins per game minute for a mule. Enough for a bunch more marines. edit: and that mining is free of supply too | ||
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imatruck
United States10 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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razzer
United States28 Posts
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:46 razzer wrote: all im saying is that whenever zerg sees a wall in on low ground its an instant zerg rush Speak for yourself maybe. I low ground wall with most openners I do vs Zerg and I rarely see a rush as a response. Your post makes little sense anyway - if they don't have a pool down before scouting your low wall then its a pretty late 'zerg-rush' | ||
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closey
Hong Kong272 Posts
Maybe it will work on plat. league where I am, but personally I really like the banshee cheese into thor + banshee / marine / hellion build. It takes a little longer to build, but much more invincible against a zerg. You sir(the OP), deserve to be in the Masters league if you can cheese your way in with this. And those who successfully defend against this, Grand Master league for you! | ||
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Hotshot_NA
Australia12 Posts
First game was verse a high diamond toss, i messed up my wall at the bottom, and had to use my 2nd rax to close it off (so toss obviously knew atleast some 2rax pressure was coming), toss crono'd out two stalkers and micro'd all the way to his base dealing lots of damage to my scvs, was close battle once i got to his base but got owned in the end. second game i perfected the SD and rax wall in at bottom of the ramp and smashed through a high diamond (rank 8) zerg who went hatch before pool. (back to back positions on shattered temple) Third game also worked perfectly in a TvT where the terran didnt wall in. Fourth game was hilarious - cross position on Shattered Temple. I scout after my 2nd rax and find a terran doing the exact same build - his problem was that his wall in was not secure so my scv got through and saw the 2 extra rax's on the high ground.. i continued with the build but also threw up a bunker at the bottom of my ramp, absolutely smashed his army (all scvs and rines) with minimal losses and he gg'd out. just thought i'd say thanks for the build and let you know how i went  | ||
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saxonhamish
Australia18 Posts
I wouldn't so much take this as a reflection of the "Power" of cheese so much. It is more of a reflection that the metagame has come to a point where it is too economically greedy and this build is a natural response to that. Also to me, the success of this build confirms to me that SC2 is a STRATEGY game. It doesn't matter how good your mechanics/micro/apm/macro is if your build order has a massive vulnerability in it, so much so that a far lesser "skilled" opponent can exploit that and beat you, then you deserve to lose. So to all the haters, maybe stop complaining that you have spent all this time refining your mechanics to be such a great player to be beat by this crap. Maybe you have ignored the fact that your current build orders have a huge weakness in it to early cheese/timing attacks because of the economic greed of the metagame, and you should adapt your build. Or just QQ until blizzard changes something, that works too. HOWEVER, I do think that Terran cheese against Protoss is over powered and needs to be looked into (or Protoss need to play in a different way against Terran). The TvP all in is so ridiculously strong atm (even if scouted) and there are so many variations of it that im convinced that the only reason we don't see it at pro level is because of the controversy it may cause for the player who uses it. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:22 barkles wrote: Question (Sorry if this has been addressed before...17 pages is a lot): Why get the Orbital Command (150 minerals) just to call down supply (depot=100 minerals)? Since ALL SCVs are pulled, even a mule later in the game isn't going to be that helpful with additional production...why not save some minerals and just build the depot? I think it may have something to do with the time that the scv is off the mineral line building the depot. Since using the 100 minerals instead of OC may cause an issue for the amount of minerals you have once that SD is done. Supply call down is effective as opposed to a mule since the timing is key and all scvs are being used so who cares about having a mule anyway. On May 17 2011 14:09 saxonhamish wrote: HOWEVER, I do think that Terran cheese against Protoss is over powered and needs to be looked into (or Protoss need to play in a different way against Terran). The TvP all in is so ridiculously strong atm (even if scouted) and there are so many variations of it that im convinced that the only reason we don't see it at pro level is because of the controversy it may cause for the player who uses it. No I think that its just too easy to hold this kind of low tech attack as protoss so long as you are able to forcefield the ramp. To be honest 2 sentries are enough to hold the ramp long enough to get WG up to defend against this kind of push as we can see in the replays of Sase vs. Geiko a few pages back. The decision to go 3 gate when seeing the low ground rax is a good one. Strong one base timings from Terran where they get banshees tanks and marines are the problematic pushes moreso than these very fast marine timings (super close positions like delta and slagg pitts aside that is) | ||
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:24 [Atomic]Peace wrote: Because at no point in the early game to you have 100 minerals to spare, and you can't wait for the MULE to mine. What he is trying to say is, when you are saving up 150 minerals for the OC why not build the supply depot when you have 100 minerals? Essentially, it comes down to why spend 150 minerals now to get 100 minerals worth of stuff when you can spend 100 of the 150 minerals you would use for the OC (and 30 seconds of mining time) to get a supply depot. OC = 150 minerals, 35s build time Supply = 100 minerals, 30s build time, 30 seconds of mining time from 1 scv. The face that you can't build scvs during OC build time is irrelevant with this build. Lets make up some numbers: At 1 minute we have 0 minerals We gain minerals at a rate of 150 ever 25 seconds (enough to support 3 rax marine production) with 12 harvesters. Every harvester gathers at a rate of 0.5 minerals per second. (150/25/6) If we can build an OC at 1:25 at the earliest. Or we can build a Supply at 1:16 at the earliest. The OC finishes at 2:00 at which a call down will be used to gain 8 extra supply. Or the supply depot finishes at 1:46. What are the differences? 1. Supply depot finishes 14 second faster than OC. 2. Supply depot costs 50 minerals less than OC. 3. Supply depot reduced mining time for a period of time With these points I don't think the OC is justified. | ||
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saxonhamish
Australia18 Posts
On May 17 2011 14:12 ZeromuS wrote: I think it may have something to do with the time that the scv is off the mineral line building the depot. Since using the 100 minerals instead of OC may cause an issue for the amount of minerals you have once that SD is done. Supply call down is effective as opposed to a mule since the timing is key and all scvs are being used so who cares about having a mule anyway. No I think that its just too easy to hold this kind of low tech attack as protoss so long as you are able to forcefield the ramp. To be honest 2 sentries are enough to hold the ramp long enough to get WG up to defend against this kind of push as we can see in the replays of Sase vs. Geiko a few pages back. The decision to go 3 gate when seeing the low ground rax is a good one. Strong one base timings from Terran where they get banshees tanks and marines are the problematic pushes moreso than these very fast marine timings (super close positions like delta and slagg pitts aside that is) As I said, there are many variations, some of which are so early they cannot be blocked by sentries, and if you go early sentries you auto lose. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
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HypernovA
Canada556 Posts
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Msqrd
Canada55 Posts
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