EPT...also since using this build, I've subscribed to FHM Singapore and bought Anya Marina's album, who's with me!? rofl, no? ok...
[G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league - Page 18
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Infinite976
United States92 Posts
...also since using this build, I've subscribed to FHM Singapore and bought Anya Marina's album, who's with me!? rofl, no? ok... | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Kelmqtlol
United States91 Posts
Boy, was I mad when it hit me though... | ||
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Westy
England808 Posts
I give it a month before this is nerfed. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
On May 17 2011 15:56 DreamRaider wrote: i went against this build and i fended it off very successfully. This build is very weak and predictable. Thank you so much for elaborating with that post. Would you care to explain how, under what opening and circumstances, what your opponent did right and wrong, the rush distance, and how a person can compete at GM level with this build? If your opponent lets you scout it easily, then obviously you should be able to win. You do not even care to say what race you are, as Protoss probably has the hardest time stopping this push. Seeing your avatar as Terran, it probably would be a free win if your opponent was not as good to hide the additional barracks. | ||
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tooleman
United States20 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:16 Westy wrote: I have to say this build is near impossible to hold of as a protoss on the small maps. You cannot get your 3rd sentry out fast enough, even with full chrono. I even tried kiting his units AWAY from my base, but all he does is set a few scv's and 1 marine to attack the stalker while he just runs the rest straight to my base. Then when he finally gets up your ramp you are sitting there with 3 sentries and a zealot, which die before warpgate can finish. Meanwhile his mule is giving him enough income to keep making marines and build bunkers in my base. I give it a month before this is nerfed. If you 9 pylon scout then you will see the low wall early enough to skip the first zealot/stalker. Especially on these smaller maps. Skip WG tech entirely to have enough gas to constantly chrono out sentries without a pause (if you have opened with 2 gas). By building sentries you can also afford another gateway. If you do this you will be able to FF him out as long as you like while you chrono out gateway units. Also, it is a good idea to leave the scouting probe in the area of his natural to check for the supply drop and confirm he is not faking the all in. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
TvT - Truly a coinflip depending on the map. Usually if they bunker they hold. Loses slightly more often than wins. I encountered a guy doing the same thing, though. Expanded and won in a macro game. TvZ - Almost worthless. 2 spines will hold this easily. I get blocked and owned if I try to run by and I get owned anyway if I attack straight up. Provided the zerg pulls everything, which they have done almost all the time. Hellion-Viking-MMM push is more effective. TvP - Ah, it works here. Depends if they manage to probe pull before you get up the ramp. If they pull and form a concave, you get FFed, prepare to die a horrible death. 70% win thereabout~ Take note, I didn't use this build for TvZ, so the 60% win rate does not apply to it past the first couple matches when I decided it was not so good. | ||
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Westy
England808 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:25 tooleman wrote: If you 9 pylon scout then you will see the low wall early enough to skip the first zealot/stalker. Especially on these smaller maps. Skip WG tech entirely to have enough gas to constantly chrono out sentries without a pause (if you have opened with 2 gas). By building sentries you can also afford another gateway. If you do this you will be able to FF him out as long as you like while you chrono out gateway units. Also, it is a good idea to leave the scouting probe in the area of his natural to check for the supply drop and confirm he is not faking the all in. I should of mentioned, I did 9 pylon scout and he simply built a second depo on the high ground instead of getting an early OC. Even though I could not get into his base (I got unlucky with scouting and got to his base last) I already knew what was happening. So I chrono'ed my sentries out while getting 2 more gates for a total of 3 gates. He started to push out just as my first sentry came out. I kited him to the middle of the map with the stalker, and which point I decided my only hope was to lure him away with the stalker. It kind of worked, buying me an extra 5 seconds. He got to my ramp just as my second sentry was about to come out. I put down the first FF perfectly, shuting all his units outside the ramp. Same with second FF (Waited for first one to disappear to give me as much time as possible) but the forcefield did not last long enough and he got up the ramp before the 3rd sentry was out. Warpgate was only just finished due to me having to chrono sentries instead of WG. Only thing I feel I could of done differently was to pull all my units back until I could get the first warp ins done. But there were only 2 pylon powering my gateways and he could of easily focused them down. | ||
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sadivar
Turkey16 Posts
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
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Laconic
United States32 Posts
Here's the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/168780-1v1-terran-protoss-slag-pits My opponent is currently at ~930 points in the NA Master's League. I agree with tooleman that you should hold off on getting Warpgate research in favor of having more gas, but I personally do not like getting Sentries against this kind of cheese. Pure Stalker allows you to kite easily, and they're much meatier units once all the SCVs are down. | ||
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mage36
415 Posts
On May 17 2011 00:40 MasterFischer wrote: Who said cheese was unintentional and wrong in RTS games like starcraft 2 ? IT IS, a part of the game, and it fits in the game as well. Since, you don't scout what is he doing, he will eliminate you. This is fair. Cutting off drivers in public or whatever is both illegal and wrong because it upsets the security and flow of the general public trafficking. Cheese in starcraft 2 does not. In addition, I actually find it quite enjoyable to play against cheese because I find it a huge challenge. Knowing that the opponent has thrown everything at me and still being able to win feels just as good a win as a very long game with dozens of engagements. | ||
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Geiko
France1943 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:31 iokke wrote: @Geiko Can't believe the amount of criticism you are getting for this. Don't mind the nay-sayers. I think the OP is fun, the title made me read this (which helped me later!). I also don't think there's anything wrong with cheesing though I rarely do so. I'm really happy it exists and think it makes the game more fun for me even when i get cheesed (though i do still get mad sometimes, its mostly at myself). Worse case scenario you exposed something that's broken.. A good thing. Best case scenario you added variety to the game: a very good thing. (I posted this in my previous reply, but to make a point I'll repeat part of my previous post): I play Protoss, I read this before laddering today, first T I got this did this too me. And I scouted it super late). After his attack I was left with 2 probes and 2 stalkers and some money in the bank, If I didn't read your OP I probably woulda quit thinking he may have had leftover scvs + mules. Because of you I won as a P edit: I do have a question for you.. both games I won vs this but my opponents didn't look like they microed well (high Diamond). Do you think 12-13gate with choroned zealot zealot stalker (and later stalkers) will stop this on its own, or is sentry necessary for extra delay vs properly microed scvs and rines? I'm asking cause cause I had success with this aggressive opening in general vs T, and it seems to have stopped this without having to change much, but idk if I just got lucky I don't think the correct answer is 2 chroned zealot before stalker, simply because zealots are next to useless vs a pack of marines (they can't even get an attack off and die in two stutterstep movement. The correct answer in my opinion is to cut the zealot if you scout it early enough and make fast 2nd and 3rd gate to chrono out stalkers. However, I think this build can be held with pretty much any oppener. I play a no-scout style in PvT where my zealot + stalker push is the first information I get. I also get one gate + one robo then an other gate, so I think this start is the worth it can get vs this strat. But after 20 or so practise games, I found that I could hold given flawless micro, walling in tricks, and chronoing the right units. I think people shouldn't get to upset about this and change their style drasticaly. It's very easy to over commit and then lose to banshees or a fast expo. On May 17 2011 11:53 Perplex wrote: is forge mandatory as protoss to defend this? this pretty much means everytime a terran walls the bottom of his ramp I need to invest in a forge now -.- not good... See my answer above, forge is not mandatory and not even a good option IMO. On May 17 2011 14:16 G_Wen wrote: What he is trying to say is, when you are saving up 150 minerals for the OC why not build the supply depot when you have 100 minerals? Essentially, it comes down to why spend 150 minerals now to get 100 minerals worth of stuff when you can spend 100 of the 150 minerals you would use for the OC (and 30 seconds of mining time) to get a supply depot. OC = 150 minerals, 35s build time Supply = 100 minerals, 30s build time, 30 seconds of mining time from 1 scv. The face that you can't build scvs during OC build time is irrelevant with this build. Lets make up some numbers: At 1 minute we have 0 minerals We gain minerals at a rate of 150 ever 25 seconds (enough to support 3 rax marine production) with 12 harvesters. Every harvester gathers at a rate of 0.5 minerals per second. (150/25/6) If we can build an OC at 1:25 at the earliest. Or we can build a Supply at 1:16 at the earliest. The OC finishes at 2:00 at which a call down will be used to gain 8 extra supply. Or the supply depot finishes at 1:46. What are the differences? 1. Supply depot finishes 14 second faster than OC. 2. Supply depot costs 50 minerals less than OC. 3. Supply depot reduced mining time for a period of time With these points I don't think the OC is justified. I already explained the point of the orbital. I'll maybe add it to the OP. The only restraint that the build has is that it should be able to make constant marines once the racks are done (not a single pause between marine production). With that in mind, if I can squeeze in an OC in the BO while not cutting on marines, the result will be the same as getting an extra SD (SD costs 100 + mining time ~ 130 compared to 150 orbital) but I'll have MULEs in case things go wrong. The disadvantages of OC vs depot are - ~20 minerals lost at end - scoutable supply call down (but with good map awareness, your 3 marines can prevent anything from seeing that calldown) The advantage is that it can help you win extremely tight games (for example, see the replay with MoMaN where we both fall at 3 supply but I have MULEs ^^) Anyway, I ran into LiquidRet yesterday, he obviously doesn't read the strategy section of TL ^^ (won't post the replay because he was offracing terran so it wouldn't be fair) | ||
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Smeik
Germany32 Posts
 User was warned for this post | ||
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Checkm8
Japan627 Posts
I was surprised no toss player said anything about cheesing to counter a cheese... User was warned for this post | ||
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Borkbokbork
United States123 Posts
they think that they're hiding this information from you by denying scouting, but really it's the opposite. Mod Edit: No it's not. Stop spreading false information. | ||
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Geiko
France1943 Posts
I had an ok win rate (60%) up until high master, and then my win rate skyrocketed as I faced GM players (80-90% for a while). Master players rely on safe builds to macro up whereas pro players are cutting corner everywhere in order in order to gain that slight advantage that they need to win games. Terran pros I have met never place bunkers because that extra 100 is a lot in the early game. They instead rely on barely defending with marine/scv micro. But this push hits way harder than anyone expects so they get caught off guard. Also, to anyone playing this, the first 20-30 games I played witht his strat were absolutely terrible (compared to how refined my execution of it is now). You shouldn't expect to see the potential of this build right away. (telling that to the poster who thinks it's useless vs Z and doesn't want to try it anymore) I'm happy I have all these GM replays because without them, I think 80% of people would be shitting on this build without even giving the build a chance Also now, I'm curious how the meta game will evolve with this low ground wall off shenanigans ^^ On May 17 2011 18:11 Borkbokbork wrote: Tip: if terran walls the bottom of his ramp, 100% of the time it is marine/scv all in. they think that they're hiding this information from you by denying scouting, but really it's the opposite. This has been addressed already. Pro players such as MVP or MKP have been using this wall off to hide fast tech (double port banshee) or a macro opening (1 rax FE). | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On May 17 2011 18:16 Geiko wrote: Also, to anyone playing this, the first 20-30 games I played witht his strat were absolutely terrible (compared to how refined my execution of it is now). You shouldn't expect to see the potential of this build right away. (telling that to the poster who thinks it's useless vs Z and doesn't want to try it anymore) I'm happy I have all these GM replays because without them, I think 80% of people would be shitting on this build without even giving the build a chance That's me, I suppose. I'm trying to get to masters without playing a lot - 99% of players I've faced have played more games than me. Maybe you're right in saying it works better against high level masters/GMs who take risks than the people I'm facing. I have another refined cheese build for TvZ which has a high win percentage, so excuse me if I don't use the 3 rax. It so happens that the games I played had them getting up spines before 5 minutes, and I just don't see myself winning. And frankly, if I was offracing Zerg, I wouldn't lose to it, ever, with a standard 14 hatch. I'm pretty sure I'm executing it correctly except against Terran. For some reason maybe 1 in 3 wall off and then I'm trying to decide whether I should focus down the depot that is getting repaired or the marines on high ground. Usually I go for the marines. | ||
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shawnyee
Sweden53 Posts
wall of? | ||
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