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I just played a ZvP on Xelnaga, and the guy responded to my ling roach by going archon/immortal.
with the splash damage of 4-5 archons and immortal to counter the roaches my army couldnt do anything. i tried to put hydras in my mix and infestors. but couldnt do anything !!
i countered and denied his 3rd twice or three times. i took all the bases i could, and still couldnt do anything !!
I used to be diamond level but i'm i got demoted to platinum since im always dying to cheeses.
thx if someone can give me some advice !!
here is the replay http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/6723/ZealotNick_vs_Jojo
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On May 07 2011 07:42 jojoleb wrote:I just played a ZvP on Xelnaga, and the guy responded to my ling roach by going archon/immortal. with the splash damage of 4-5 archons and immortal to counter the roaches my army couldnt do anything. i tried to put hydras in my mix and infestors. but couldnt do anything !! i countered and denied his 3rd twice or three times. i took all the bases i could, and still couldnt do anything !! I used to be diamond level but i'm i got demoted to platinum since im always dying to cheeses. thx if someone can give me some advice !! here is the replay http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/6723/ZealotNick_vs_Jojo
Mutas are godly against this. As much as archons are good against stacked units the splash range is very small, if you can keep your mutas separated then you will absolutely crush this. Also, throw in some lings to absorbs hits as the archons will focus on the air units, so lings will be free to run in and cause havok.
Hydra/ling is pretty good too I just realized. Maybe even better. Roaches are more meant for tanking damage, need a damage dealing units in their (lings or mutas or hydras)
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Im feeling the obligatory .....
Broodlords.
=)
User was warned for this post
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More importantly roaches are the worst unit imaginable against archon/immortal.
And yeah, magic boxed muta/ling works pretty effectively, especially since muta harass will force some stalkers. Get out some brood lords, and you should be able to crush that composition. Having said that, a major problem in that game was your economy; you just can't stay even bases against protoss for as long as you were.
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I was actually thinking over broodlord/inferstor/ling getting nice fungals off would give the broodlords enough space to outrange the archons and tear through their shields pretty effectively.
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On May 07 2011 07:58 X3NOC1D3 wrote:
I was actually thinking over broodlord/inferstor/ling getting nice fungals off would give the broodlords enough space to outrange the archons and tear through their shields pretty effectively.
as of 1.3.3, the massive attribute makes fungal not slow down archons.
However, much like a thor, when the broods hit/spawns broodlings, the archons/units are stoped, and forced to attack, giving u time for another volley... and so on.
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What are you talking about? Massive units are trapped by fungals, it happens to colossi all the time.
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On May 07 2011 08:01 Malpractice.248 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:58 X3NOC1D3 wrote:
I was actually thinking over broodlord/inferstor/ling getting nice fungals off would give the broodlords enough space to outrange the archons and tear through their shields pretty effectively. as of 1.3.3, the massive attribute makes fungal not slow down archons. However, much like a thor, when the broods hit/spawns broodlings, the archons/units are stoped, and forced to attack, giving u time for another volley... and so on.
Says who? Being massive doesn't make fungal not root the unit. The only unit immune to fungal's movement decrease are ultras.
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On May 07 2011 07:42 jojoleb wrote:I just played a ZvP on Xelnaga, and the guy responded to my ling roach by going archon/immortal. with the splash damage of 4-5 archons and immortal to counter the roaches my army couldnt do anything. i tried to put hydras in my mix and infestors. but couldnt do anything !! i countered and denied his 3rd twice or three times. i took all the bases i could, and still couldnt do anything !! I used to be diamond level but i'm i got demoted to platinum since im always dying to cheeses. thx if someone can give me some advice !! here is the replay http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/6723/ZealotNick_vs_Jojo
The only thing going through my mind this whole game is SO MUCH GAS. His army cost = SO much gas. Your base taking = so much (opportunity for) gas.
Do you have any idea what the gas cost of this army is??? By denying his 3rd for so long you had him starved in minerals so you know his army must be smaller than yours if macroed right.
Secondly, the point of taking expos as zerg is for the gas!!!
As previously stated by other comments: Explore spire tech when your opponent throws down a robo. Mutas will put the fear of moving out on him even further and Hive+Broods once you're on 4base worth of gasses wouldve crushed that game.
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Hi there.
I just watched the replay, and you did a fairly great job. Like others said though, Roaches are the worst possible unit against Archon/Immortals since both deal a significant amount of damage to Roaches. Although if you had upgraded your Zerglings a little more, and massed those I think you would have been fine.
Also, you should have stopped the Roaches. You should have either gone with Hydralisks and Infestors, or Infestors and Zerglings adding in a few Neural Parasites here and there.
Like others have suggested, Brood Lords are good units, but in my opinion he got an army of that size fairly quickly and so I think getting Brood Lords that quickly would be inconvenient and difficult.
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On May 07 2011 08:04 Disp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:01 Malpractice.248 wrote:On May 07 2011 07:58 X3NOC1D3 wrote:
I was actually thinking over broodlord/inferstor/ling getting nice fungals off would give the broodlords enough space to outrange the archons and tear through their shields pretty effectively. as of 1.3.3, the massive attribute makes fungal not slow down archons. However, much like a thor, when the broods hit/spawns broodlings, the archons/units are stoped, and forced to attack, giving u time for another volley... and so on. Says who? Being massive doesn't make fungal not root the unit. The only unit immune to fungal's movement decrease are ultras.
Actually, after thinking, youre right, lol. Sry :/
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i dont see how Hydras Dont counter that unless u were miles behind by allining or your macro is terrible
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Broodlords is the clear and obvious answer. Hydras perform well against archon as well, but obviously are slow off creep. Zerg has alot of soft counters for this comp, broodlord is the hardest counter.
Another example of a soft counter is denying his third base. (no gas, no archons)
If he is able to get to a meaningful number of archons and immortals then you are more than capable of having broodlords at that time. Get ready for this though... wait for it... *GASP* you won't be able to play standard and max in 14 minutes on roach hydra if you think he will get a critical mass of units in that time. Zerg needs a new standard soon if not already.
lings are the last thing you want if there are 3 or 4 archons on the field.
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The best counter to Immortal/Archon is probably mass Zergling + Infestor(with Neural Parasite), with perhaps a few Ultras thrown in. Neural Parasite as many as you can and clean everything else up with Zerglings + Ultras.
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Ultras are really really bad against both archons and immortals what are you talking about? Infestor/ling should work fine with a good surround, but... ultras?
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On May 07 2011 08:23 Amarkov wrote:
Ultras are really really bad against both archons and immortals what are you talking about? Infestor/ling should work fine with a good surround, but... ultras?
Ultras are only really bad against Archons/Immortals if your opponent is specifically targeting them. And if they are they're dead anyways because of the mass Zergling + Neural Parasite. I'm not talking a lot of Ultras, just a few..like 3-4.
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a better question is why did you let him get archon AND immortals? Overlord drops of lings [just a few.] You should have a lot of expansions always threaten counter attacks if he pushes out and tech to whatever you want. Hydra would be good vs this but the point is that he's got a very immobile army you should abuse this by just destroying him by getting 3 more bases than he has and abusing the lack of pressure he can do with droning.
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On May 07 2011 08:26 NiiTHrA wrote:
a better question is why did you let him get archon AND immortals? Overlord drops of lings [just a few.] You should have a lot of expansions always threaten counter attacks if he pushes out and tech to whatever you want. Hydra would be good vs this but the point is that he's got a very immobile army you should abuse this by just destroying him by getting 3 more bases than he has and abusing the lack of pressure he can do with droning.
did you even watch the replay ?? thats what i did !
i FG his probes(killed at least 20) . harrassed, denied 3rd twice etc..
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thank everyone for the advice. but how i'm supposed to tech to brood lords when he can just attack me at any moments ! thats why I was getting roach hydra coz that was that tech i had. i even tried to fungal.
but the problems is that no zerg unit does extra damage to Psyonic units(archons) so its hard to counter it.
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fungal will work great and if possible u can neural parasite the archons and splash all around. If you fungal, they can't move, great for catching toss out of position and using other units to attack
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On May 07 2011 08:55 jojoleb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:26 NiiTHrA wrote:
a better question is why did you let him get archon AND immortals? Overlord drops of lings [just a few.] You should have a lot of expansions always threaten counter attacks if he pushes out and tech to whatever you want. Hydra would be good vs this but the point is that he's got a very immobile army you should abuse this by just destroying him by getting 3 more bases than he has and abusing the lack of pressure he can do with droning. did you even watch the replay ?? thats what i did ! i FG his probes(killed at least 20) . harrassed, denied 3rd twice etc..
I watched the replay, wrong, wrong, and wrong again.
He was ahead in probes, tech, structures, units until 10 minutes in, bad saturation up until 12 minutes. You don't make a single attempt at harassment/attacking until 17:20 into the game. Thats almost 18 minutes where you sit on your ass and occasionally make some low tier units.
1. Bad scouting, you don't attempt to see what he's doing after the initial overlord scout, thus leaving you massively unprepared. You don't even scout his army comp until it's too late.
2. Bad unit composition, your army, until 19:15 consists of ONLY roaches and lings. Against a zealot, archon immortal army. You had the hydra den down, but just didn't make anything.
3. Bad reactions, while you saw (or didn't see) that he wasn't going to attack anytime soon, you didn't mass expand, nor did you tech up to something that could break him, NOR did you make a more efficient army composition.
In regards to your argument that you harassed etc.
1. You fungaled his probes at... 27 minutes into the game, in which he had already built up his deathball, and was in the middle of killing your natural, 2nd, 3rd and 4th expansions. The 2nd time you fungaled was after you had no income and were down by 60 supply.
2. Harassment at 17 minutes by sending your entire army to die, really isn't harassment.
3. The first time you denied his third, you suicided your entire army into his, lost your supply lead. The second time you denied it, he KILLED your third. That isn't harassment.
tl;dr
sloppy play, you had the illusion that you were in the lead/ahead, you didn't take the map, nothing until 17 minutes, no effective harassment until 27 minutes, bad reactions, bad composition, bad scouting, bad macro/game sense etc.
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Muta-ling then going to broodlords on 4 or so bases would be the best
Dont engage his army unless hes at your doorstep and you have to, harrass him instead. Deny his expansions with the lings and constantly pick off probes or outlying pylons with mutas. Archons are fat and have a hard time moving around the base, especially considering their pitiful range, and immortals are obviously bad versus both lings and mutas
If you have to engage head on, magic boxing the mutas is the most important thing
Once to broodlords it should be in the bag since he cant save the gas for stargate unless he totally stops templar production and blink stalkers will get demolished by the lings in the small numbers he will be able to get out. Just remember to spend any excess minerals on spore and spines at your expos since a DT attack will be likely given the tech route he went
Coming from a protoss who favours the mass gate style with 1 robo for obs
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All sorts of zerg unit combinations will work against this. Off the top of my head I can think of muta/ling, hydra/ling, infestor/ling, something gas heavy with lings should be fine.
The problem is if he mixes in some HT's in his army. Then it gets a little harder and good micro will be needed to bait storms or good fungals on HT.
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hydras and fungal kills archons easily as they are outranged
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fungal growth, mutalisks, hydralisks, zerglings are all good. pure zerglings aren't the best against archons, mass hydras with infestor support and lings as a mineral dump is a much better choice.
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On May 07 2011 09:10 RoseTempest wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:55 jojoleb wrote:On May 07 2011 08:26 NiiTHrA wrote:
a better question is why did you let him get archon AND immortals? Overlord drops of lings [just a few.] You should have a lot of expansions always threaten counter attacks if he pushes out and tech to whatever you want. Hydra would be good vs this but the point is that he's got a very immobile army you should abuse this by just destroying him by getting 3 more bases than he has and abusing the lack of pressure he can do with droning. did you even watch the replay ?? thats what i did ! i FG his probes(killed at least 20) . harrassed, denied 3rd twice etc.. I watched the replay, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. He was ahead in probes, tech, structures, units until 10 minutes in, bad saturation up until 12 minutes. You don't make a single attempt at harassment/attacking until 17:20 into the game. Thats almost 18 minutes where you sit on your ass and occasionally make some low tier units. 1. Bad scouting, you don't attempt to see what he's doing after the initial overlord scout, thus leaving you massively unprepared. You don't even scout his army comp until it's too late. 2. Bad unit composition, your army, until 19:15 consists of ONLY roaches and lings. Against a zealot, archon immortal army. You had the hydra den down, but just didn't make anything. 3. Bad reactions, while you saw (or didn't see) that he wasn't going to attack anytime soon, you didn't mass expand, nor did you tech up to something that could break him, NOR did you make a more efficient army composition. In regards to your argument that you harassed etc. 1. You fungaled his probes at... 27 minutes into the game, in which he had already built up his deathball, and was in the middle of killing your natural, 2nd, 3rd and 4th expansions. The 2nd time you fungaled was after you had no income and were down by 60 supply. 2. Harassment at 17 minutes by sending your entire army to die, really isn't harassment. 3. The first time you denied his third, you suicided your entire army into his, lost your supply lead. The second time you denied it, he KILLED your third. That isn't harassment. tl;dr sloppy play, you had the illusion that you were in the lead/ahead, you didn't take the map, nothing until 17 minutes, no effective harassment until 27 minutes, bad reactions, bad composition, bad scouting, bad macro/game sense etc.
Yes 100% i agree with what you said. i kinda figured that out when i watched the replay. BUT how i'm a supposed to tech to brood lords when he's got a huge death ball( teching to broodsloard requires me to bank to some money that means i will have less army then him). this would leave me vulnerable for 5-10 minutes at least !!
thanks for the advice though !! really appreciate it !
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If you are scared to pool resources for a new tech, how do you get mutalisks? Do you make a spire and make muta's one at a time when it pops? Zerg pools money for new techs to get a lot of it at once. You WILL need a hive for upgrades by 18-20 minutes at the latest. You should already have a spire by that point in time. Part of playing zerg is knowing when the opponent is unable or unwilling to move out. You say that teching to broods is going to leave you vulnerable, but in reality it is only going to be for 2 minutes. Take the map, the time it takes for him to deny one of your expo's is your window to counter attack somewhere else, and tech to broodlords.
As a zerg you cannot think to yourself, I see his army and I need to be able to beat it as it stands. You need to think to yourself, how much army do I need so that whatever army I have + whatever I can make in the 40s it takes for him to get to my base can beat his.
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On May 07 2011 09:29 jojoleb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 09:10 RoseTempest wrote:On May 07 2011 08:55 jojoleb wrote:On May 07 2011 08:26 NiiTHrA wrote:
a better question is why did you let him get archon AND immortals? Overlord drops of lings [just a few.] You should have a lot of expansions always threaten counter attacks if he pushes out and tech to whatever you want. Hydra would be good vs this but the point is that he's got a very immobile army you should abuse this by just destroying him by getting 3 more bases than he has and abusing the lack of pressure he can do with droning. did you even watch the replay ?? thats what i did ! i FG his probes(killed at least 20) . harrassed, denied 3rd twice etc.. I watched the replay, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. He was ahead in probes, tech, structures, units until 10 minutes in, bad saturation up until 12 minutes. You don't make a single attempt at harassment/attacking until 17:20 into the game. Thats almost 18 minutes where you sit on your ass and occasionally make some low tier units. 1. Bad scouting, you don't attempt to see what he's doing after the initial overlord scout, thus leaving you massively unprepared. You don't even scout his army comp until it's too late. 2. Bad unit composition, your army, until 19:15 consists of ONLY roaches and lings. Against a zealot, archon immortal army. You had the hydra den down, but just didn't make anything. 3. Bad reactions, while you saw (or didn't see) that he wasn't going to attack anytime soon, you didn't mass expand, nor did you tech up to something that could break him, NOR did you make a more efficient army composition. In regards to your argument that you harassed etc. 1. You fungaled his probes at... 27 minutes into the game, in which he had already built up his deathball, and was in the middle of killing your natural, 2nd, 3rd and 4th expansions. The 2nd time you fungaled was after you had no income and were down by 60 supply. 2. Harassment at 17 minutes by sending your entire army to die, really isn't harassment. 3. The first time you denied his third, you suicided your entire army into his, lost your supply lead. The second time you denied it, he KILLED your third. That isn't harassment. tl;dr sloppy play, you had the illusion that you were in the lead/ahead, you didn't take the map, nothing until 17 minutes, no effective harassment until 27 minutes, bad reactions, bad composition, bad scouting, bad macro/game sense etc. Yes 100% i agree with what you said. i kinda figured that out when i watched the replay. BUT how i'm a supposed to tech to brood lords when he's got a huge death ball( teching to broodsloard requires me to bank to some money that means i will have less army then him). this would leave me vulnerable for 5-10 minutes at least !! thanks for the advice though !! really appreciate it !
I'm glad you can take advice well =]
I'm out at the moment but i'll give you some in-depth advice/tips when I get back later, but for now, focus more on scouting their base/front to see what army/tech they have. If their army is puny, don't worry about teching as much etc.
Will post more later.
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On May 07 2011 08:58 jojoleb wrote:
thank everyone for the advice. but how i'm supposed to tech to brood lords when he can just attack me at any moments ! thats why I was getting roach hydra coz that was that tech i had. i even tried to fungal.
but the problems is that no zerg unit does extra damage to Psyonic units(archons) so its hard to counter it.
By the time he has massed Immortal/Archon you should at least have hive tech and a spire up. You should have no problem destroying this build with scouting what he is doing and just macroing like crazy until he begins to push.
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Mass immortal/archon is hugely expensive. I'm certain there's a timing window sometime when they don't have a large army. If I suspected this strategy I would stop powering drones earlier and pressure with roaches.
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brood lords means you already have a spire. before you tech to greater you should get mutas and harass his assimilators, so he isn't able to amass a archon/immortal/ht death ball.
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idunno how feasible it is, but it would be hilarious to see 8-10 neural parasites wreck that army. How's he gonna reach your infestors, really?
=]
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Macro better, at the 16 minute mark with roach hydra you should be maxed in supply. At the beggining you should have droned like crazy, a couple of spores and some lings are enough to defend you against any early aggression he can make. After securing that economic lead he shouldnt be able to win.
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Infestors with some mutas or broodlords
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EPT
