EPTBasically I'm saying, this might not work vs a zerg who scouts it and responds with alot of lings.
[G] PvZ - FE 1 Gate & Fast Warp Gate Research - Page 4
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
Basically I'm saying, this might not work vs a zerg who scouts it and responds with alot of lings. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 21 2011 18:06 Valckrie wrote: I've seen some people do some variant of this, a fast nexus with 2 gates. I had 15 hatched, and attacked with about 16 lings when my speed had finished, and was able to either force him to forcefield his units back, and force a cancel on the nexus, or just kill his units completely and to force him to wall off the top of his ramp thus putting him behind. If I had opened 14p14g, speed would finish even quicker, and with a decent amount of lings I don't see how your few units can cope; since you're also mining alot less gas (pulling 2 probes off gas to minerals) you will have few sentries. Basically I'm saying, this might not work vs a zerg who scouts it and responds with alot of lings. Maybe it's because this build is designed to work in semi-open maps vs FE users... | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
More interesting, I've been comparing it with the other standard builds, namely the 3 gate expand and the forge FE. I tested vs an easy computer to avoid early agression and focus on the build's economic and army potential. At 10' into the game, I've found that it was very close to the forge FE. Roughly 55 probes and 45 pop for units. It's significantly better than a 3-gate expand, which has a similar army, but a -10 difference in probes count. I like the fact that it's a standard opener, and only deviates "late" ( when you pull probes out of gaz ). This gives you time to adapt and stay on a 3/4 gate if you see the Zerg is all-in. Also, the forge FE requires you to spend at least 300 ( a forge and a canon ), which are static investiments. You can also get hit by a zerglings runby in your main if you scout too late and see the Zerg has gone for a zerglings rush. The sim-city placement of your buildings at your natural is key. Yesterday when I trained in custom games I lost to a Zerg that built an expand and went all-in mass zerglings from his 2 hatchs, and that's because I neglected my buildings placement. I'm a little concerned about one thing, which are the first units which are produced. A zealot first is a given; however you don't have enough gaz to produce a sentry immediately as a second unit, but you have enough for a stalker. I'm not sure if it's better to produce a stalker asap, or wait for 50 more gaz and chrono boost a sentry. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 21 2011 23:19 Nyast wrote: I'm a little concerned about one thing, which are the first units which are produced. A zealot first is a given; however you don't have enough gaz to produce a sentry immediately as a second unit, but you have enough for a stalker. I'm not sure if it's better to produce a stalker asap, or wait for 50 more gaz and chrono boost a sentry. I've been theory-crafting about this myself...and thought why the hell not add a 2nd zealot while waiting for the necessary gas? I only build a stalker with 3 gate expo to kill the drone and keep zerg in the dark a little longer (they have to prepare for 4 gate, DTs etc.). But with this build it's not like you could disguise anything really. Just letting the gateway idle doesn't seem optimal either obviously. Since at this stage in the game a sudden 2 base mass ling all-in is the most immediate threat and since against mass lings additional zealots are always good to have...why not build a 2nd zealot? | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 21 2011 16:59 sleepingdog wrote: Thanks for your long answer. I totally get where you're coming from, when I started one gate expanding PvT every terran would just all-in me game after game after game so that it was actually impossible to figure out how to proceed in midgame. The build I would be most interested in is a fast ling/hydra creep-highway push. Normally I deal with hydras by just going for colossi hard and use every last forcefield I've got for forcefielding the hydras out until the first colossus is available. Nevertheless your build is lower on sentries and potentially a bit slower on robotics tech. I'm not saying it can't be done, I simply would be most interested how playing against this push works out for you. Thanks for that too, it concurs with most of which I've guessed. The only surprising thing is, that the build is good on Backwater Gulch, I've always been too scared due to the dual entrances to the nat...but I'll definitely give it a try. What I'd like to know is, if you've ever run into problems with this build on Typhon peaks. Walling off there is "almost" as difficult as on slag pits (not taking insane rush distance on close pos into account obviously). I figured that on Typhon peaks the threat of two base ling/roach pushes is quite significant? Or does the mapsize provide you with enough time to get a sufficient gateway(-unit-)count? Yes, Typhon Peaks is similar to Slag Pits, but the huge rush distance gives you enough time to defend it properly. If you don't see a fast push from the zerg, you can mass up a decent amount of units and move a bit ahead of your natural and defend the middle choke. Keep the other entrance scouted always to avoid a push from that way. I'll start try a bit of this build in PvT too and see how it works out. | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 21 2011 23:25 sleepingdog wrote: I've been theory-crafting about this myself...and thought why the hell not add a 2nd zealot while waiting for the necessary gas? I only build a stalker with 3 gate expo to kill the drone and keep zerg in the dark a little longer (they have to prepare for 4 gate, DTs etc.). But with this build it's not like you could disguise anything really. Just letting the gateway idle doesn't seem optimal either obviously. Since at this stage in the game a sudden 2 base mass ling all-in is the most immediate threat and since against mass lings additional zealots are always good to have...why not build a 2nd zealot? A 2nd zealot is a good choice, like in one of the games I've posted. The stalker is not really necessary. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
You expand faster with it but you are also collecting much less gas with it and get sentries much later. Gas is terribly important in PvZ and this strat is mining minerals for some with more then 16 probes while it could be getting gas. So overall the question is, is a earlier nexus (about a minute i guess) worth more then collecting gas earlier, using your probes more efficient and building up sentry energy. In a sense sentries with energy have some economic power as well as they can pressure and force zerg to have a bit more defense. I guess there might be some merit on those maps where FFE is impossible but the push distance is too big to do any sort of 'shark mode' pressure. Thinking typhon peaks and cross position for some other maps here. In that scenario I rather expand with double gas and sentries still though just getting less gates before the nexus. 1 or 2 gates instead of 3 is perfectly viable on some of those bigger maps anyway especially if they have a bit of a choked main. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 22 2011 01:18 Markwerf wrote: So overall the question is, is a earlier nexus (about a minute i guess) worth more then collecting gas earlier, using your probes more efficient and building up sentry energy. In a sense sentries with energy have some economic power as well as they can pressure and force zerg to have a bit more defense. Well, this question can also be asked when discussing the pros and cons of forgeFE/NexFirst. And here I think many would agree that the economic strenght of those are really worth giving up the early energy-build-up for sentries. If you play a straight macro game, you won't need the sentries very "early" anyways. Just think about it, in the heavy macro situations where toss goes towards a 3rd pretty early (maybe while going stargate, maybe while going DTs, maybe while going straight robo...doesn't really matter, tbh), zergs who don't all-in pose no threat to a well positioned toss army. The real strength of this build is imo that is poses a good reactionary response to an early hatch play that you can't prevent due to a large scouting path. On typhon peaks, early hatches will go down 66% of the time, same as on backwater gulch (unless you go straight for the natural looking in every corner for a hidden drone). Additionally, on shattered temple, moving out early is actually impossible due to the huge large middle area. Until now it was basicly common consensus that you "had" to go zealot/stalker pressure, or something similar against hatch first. The way this build is structured, I think it could be a nice macro-oriented response to an early hatch play from zerg. It is correct, however, that 5/6 gate attacks aren't "that" strong due to the lack of sentry-energy. Nevertheless, if you don't rely on those and plan on, say, getting an early stargate, maybe accompanied with a forge and 1-2 cannons against burrow-roach-play, then I wouldn't consider this lack of very early sentry-energy that big of a problem. | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
I've tried doing this build against a good terran player (Neans); I've tweaked the build a bit, using an extra chronoboost on the nexus. Replay below: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204624.jpg) Also decided to try this build on Scrap Station vs a top zerg player (DarkForce). Again, the result was really positive; I dealt with no trouble vs mass roaches. Replay below: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204625.jpg) Hope you enjoy! Cheers | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 22 2011 05:22 Capoch wrote: Also decided to try this build on Scrap Station vs a top zerg player (DarkForce). Again, the result was really positive; I dealt with no trouble vs mass roaches. Replay below: Cool, will definitely watch when I get home from work, Scrap Station has always been a weird map for me. ForgeFE is terribly risky due to the large entrance AND the rocks, 3 gate expo is meh since the rush distance is so huge and you can't fake pressure. Didn't realize you played on EU though, or did Darkforce play on NA? | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 22 2011 17:15 sleepingdog wrote: Cool, will definitely watch when I get home from work, Scrap Station has always been a weird map for me. ForgeFE is terribly risky due to the large entrance AND the rocks, 3 gate expo is meh since the rush distance is so huge and you can't fake pressure. Didn't realize you played on EU though, or did Darkforce play on NA? Yes, I have an EU account too just for practice :D | ||
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Tennoji
78 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
Has anyone else tried to wait and just put down the Nexus against a Pool first opening after they 20ish Hatch? I figure if you go Zealot-Zealot you can still Nexus as long as they don't throwdown an immediate Roach Warren. I haven't had any games against good Zergs to prove it but I think it could be safe with some probe cutting and aggressively going to 3 gates and then 5. | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:37 Tennoji wrote: What happens if the zerg dennies further scouting when his first lings pop out and he cancels his expantion and goes for an all-in? I'm not very sure but it seems like you'll be in big trouble then. Well, that's one of the big issues of the build. If he cancels his expo and goes all in against yours, it'll be a tough one to hold. That won't happen often though, it would be just like going 3gate expo, and then adding 2 gates and cancelling your expo and going all in into his, these type of tricks are hard to hold by the defensive player. You just gotta try to scout as much as you can and gather whatever intel helps to react fast to what the opponent might throw at you. | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:40 Arcanefrost wrote: What do you do against a greedy zerg? (like a 6 minute-ish third) A greedy zerg will get punished bad if he takes a 3rd. Basically, you can push to the zerg's 3rd with 5-6 gates and rape him badly (with good ff's of course). | ||
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Ihsahn
Chile132 Posts
Gracias Capoch | ||
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Tennoji
78 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:49 Capoch wrote: Well, that's one of the big issues of the build. If he cancels his expo and goes all in against yours, it'll be a tough one to hold. That won't happen often though, it would be just like going 3gate expo, and then adding 2 gates and cancelling your expo and going all in into his, these type of tricks are hard to hold by the defensive player. You just gotta try to scout as much as you can and gather whatever intel helps to react fast to what the opponent might throw at you. If the build you are doing becomes mainstream the zerg will do the cancel more often as they will anticipate the build when they see no forge FE with fast warpgate. The fast warpgate tech is a big give-away of your build so I think it's quite easy to scout: a second nexus, lots of energy on the main nexus and no forge. And even if you do have a forge, the hatch cancel is viable for a zerg because zergling/baneling can bust a cannonwall. So I don't see why they wouldn't do the cancel once they start understanding what you are doing (when the build is popular)? | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 23 2011 16:49 Tennoji wrote: If the build you are doing becomes mainstream the zerg will do the cancel more often as they will anticipate the build when they see no forge FE with fast warpgate. The fast warpgate tech is a big give-away of your build so I think it's quite easy to scout: a second nexus, lots of energy on the main nexus and no forge. And even if you do have a forge, the hatch cancel is viable for a zerg because zergling/baneling can bust a cannonwall. So I don't see why they wouldn't do the cancel once they start understanding what you are doing (when the build is popular)? This build has limitations on some maps and spawns, and it shouldn't be consider as your main build. As I said, it's really situational.You might wanna start with a 3gate FE, but if the spawn and map favour this build I wrote, then doing it might get you an advantage. | ||
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Vaporak
70 Posts
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