[G] PvZ - FE 1 Gate & Fast Warp Gate Research - Page 2

On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:


I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas.

Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame

On April 20 2011 16:12 Anihc wrote:


Ok, really how much of a difference does that make? You have 2 probes mining gas, you put those 2 probes back on minerals for... 10 seconds so that you can get 400 minerals for a nexus 2 seconds faster? I have a really hard time believing that this is the "secret" to this build.

Look, Capoch I know you're a great player, I have no doubts that you've used this build successfully at the highest level of play, and I think the idea behind this build has great potential. But honestly this guide is just bad. You don't describe the build well (leaving out important details like when you put probes back on gas), you don't explain why it's good (how does this compare to the 2 other popular PvZ FE builds?). On top of that you say you're just testing it and don't have any replays. Why not wait until after you have more experience/testing with this build, and then create a thread with replays?

Again, I'm not bashing the player or the idea, I'm bashing the opening post. If your name wasn't behind the thread, it would get insta-closed for failing to meet multiple strat forum guideline requirements.

On April 20 2011 15:54 Anihc wrote:


I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well).

So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get.

On April 20 2011 15:54 Anihc wrote:


I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well).

So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get.

On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:
While I agree with Anihc, that Nexus first is better on the bigger maps, I think that this BO has good potential on maps where Nexus first is too risky. Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions and Shattered Temple. I'm not sure about Xel Naga, the natural is so open, good zergs might find timings to abuse this heavily.
What I've always disliked about Nexus first is the heavy, heavy commitment you make BEFORE actually knowing wtf your opponent is doing. This comes pretty much by definition, since you don't make a gate. While this build might be inferior to Nexus first, it's definitely safer since you can - at any time - decide to just not pull probes of gas.

However, I agree with this:


Capoch, you are an amazing player who made a so-so OP. It seems like currently you are just winging the build and go with what your gut tells you. While this may work for you because you have great gamesense (or more negatively put: because your opponents don't know how to react properly yet), a good guide must account for - if not all - then many of the usual follow-ups.
Some questions that you need to answer in my opinion for this [d]iscussion to become really [g]uide-worthy:
a) When to build additional production structures if zerg expands. Do you cut probes shortly, like in the classic one gate FE vs terran?
b) What to do vs TWO-base all-ins, namely mass roach accompanied by a few lings. Maybe you need to implement an earlier forge on some maps to be safe?
c) TRANSITIONS! You really need to go at least into mid-game with your guide. You won't have any scouting intel and don't have enough sentries to make hallucination a good investment. What do you build at this zero-mapcontrol-point in the game based on which tells? Nexus first / forge FE is very often followed up by stargate, 3 gate expand more often followed up by robo. Your build is "in the middle": which route do you normally take, and why?
Especially, what to do against these zerg follow-ups:
Fast 2 base hydra --> your build is low on sentries, the initial push seems very threatening to me without the sentry-count to block hydras out until colossi are on the field. Or do timings work out?
Fast 3rd by zerg --> doesn't seem that big of a problem, nevertheless since you will have very low scouting intel at this point. How to prepare, how to react?
d) Map-analysis: You should depict which maps are more suitable for your build and which aren't. Counter-intuitively I think (!) - what Anihc has already mentioned - that due to the possible 15 Nex / forge FE, this build is quite weak on larger maps. Because if you want to pressure, you go 3 gate expo, if you want to macro, you can 15 Nex / forge FE. On Xel Naga however, I think (!) that this build might be too risky. Maybe (!) on Typhon Peaks and Backwhater gulch too? You should notice the level of uncertainty here.

Same as Anihc, I appreciate you posting here and don't want to bash on your skills. I just hope you don't "give up" on this thread and find the time and take the effort, to include all the things that unfortunately are still missing.