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Hi guys,
I’ve been recently testing out a new strategy in the PvZ matchup. I’ll write down the build order and some pointers of it in a bit, but 1st let me start with a quick introduction of myself. My name is Patricio "Capoch" del Olmo, from Argentina and I’ve been playing RTS games competitively for many years. I've participated in BlizzCon 2010, Brazil Game Show 2010, and many nice online tourneys of SC2 over the past months (such as GGI tourney, FXO Invitationals, etc). You can check my RTS achievements (as well as other stuff) in my facebook page: www.facebook.com/capoch.ar
Now onto the build:
It's been having great success in the past few days against many good zergs I’m currently Top 25 in NA GrandMaster league. This build was also spotted by Day9 during his daily show on Monday. Build order:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
17 cybernetics
18 Nexus
Now you would probably think what the fuck??? Well, the key here is that you only get 50 gas for the Warp Gate Research and only use 2 initial chronoboosts on the Nexus. The secret of the build is only mining gas with 2 probes, and once you get the 50 gas, you’ll pull them to mine minerals. After building the nexus on your natural, you’ll want to get a fast zealot to block the ramp or deal with any early ling aggression.
What you need to know for sure is that your opponent is also doing some kind of FE; this build is really vulnerable to any type of all in from the zerg player, so you will want to scout his base good before doing it. If you don’t see your opponent with any type of intend of expanding, then I'd suggest doing the typical 3 gate FE, or whatever you like to do. If you can, try to block a bit the zerg's early expansion yourself, probe dancing around his natural or blocking it with a pylon (if you notice that he sends a drone to his natural of course).
So, let’s go back to the point in which you saw your opponent taking his natural and you started building your nexus. Now what? Well, that’s easy, start doing the warp gate research and chronoboost it! I’d also suggest to either chronoboost your nexus or your 1st zealot and following a stalker if you spot some early harassment from the zerg with your probe scout. Of course, while you do this, you must keep doing probes in your main, and also take the 2nd gas as fast as possible to start doing some early sentries that will help a ton on blocking early rushes.
The zerg player will probably scout your early nexus and no forge and will think, “hey, this looks easy, I’ll make lots of units and take down that fast nexus”. Well, the key here is to do some sort of wallin with pylon-nexus-2 additional gateways making some kind of choke that you can block easily with 2-3 units. After you get 3 units out (ideally would be 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 1 sentry) you should have 2gates with warp upgrade done, and almost a 3rd gate up. This will stop most aggressions (except 1 base all in of course).
At this point, you can follow this build with whatever you prefer most. If you see some aggression from the zerg, I’d suggest throwing down 2 more gateways to mass more units or even do 2 more gates and go aggressive yourself! You will also want to take the natural gases early on too (after having the 3 1st gates up).
Pros and cons of the build:
Strong against: -Expanding zerg (careful here, the zerg might do some type of FE but you’re not sure if he’s gonna use the extra larva to make units and attack you or just build his eco up; scouting is essential and also some common sense works too!).
Weak against: -1 base zerg all in.
-zerg player spawning in close positions (this build is tough to do in close spots, I don’t recommend it).
So as I said, I’ve come up with this build a couple of days ago, and I’m testing it a lot, not only transitioning into 5gate push but also into stargate/robotics and grabbing another expo early.
Q&A
+ Show Spoiler +-Why not just 15/17 nexus if your opponent is FEing?
The timing is just perfect with 18 nexus, that's why.
Just when you place the nexus with the 18th, your cybernetics will be done at the same time and you can begin the warp gate research upgrade.
-How does this build fare against fast muta's or hard droning by the zerg?
This build works just perfect vs fast muta's and hard droning zergs. The reason is because after you got your 3 gates up, you can research hallucination and scout a bit to see what's going on. After scouting with your fake phoenixes, you can just adapt accordingly, so if you see mutas, you can go for a 5gate early blink push. Do a fake phoenix and blink into his main and just win the game.
-When to build additional production structures if zerg expands. Do you cut probes shortly, like in the classic one gate FE vs terran?
Basically after putting down your nexus, you want to start your warp gate research and do a zealot. After that, start the probe production again, and move back 3 probes to the gas. You also want to start walling your natural in with a pylon-gateway-nexus-gateway-pylon or whatever necessary, leaving a small choke that will be blocked by 1 or 2 zealots. The chronoboost here depends on how the opponent reacts when he spots the nexus at your natural. If you want to be really safe, then chronoboost your gate and the warp gate research; if you feel comfortable, then chronoboost your nexus and warp gate research, or mix around a bit.
-What to do vs TWO-base all-ins, namely mass roach accompanied by a few lings. Maybe you need to implement an earlier forge on some maps to be safe?
This build is really good against pushes because you’ll be getting the warp gate upgrade fairly soon, and you’ll be pumping units from 3 gates early. It’s not good against pushes in close spawns, that’s why I don’t recommend doing it in that situation, but if the opponent is in other locations, then you can stop some pushes (shown in the replays I’ve posted). An early forge or even a semi early hallucination just to get some important scouting intel and reacting accordingly to what the opponent is doing might be good. The forge is nice for the +1 and just to be safe of burrowed roaches. The beauty of the build lies in taking a nexus so fast without a forge; by doing this, most opponents will desperately react by trying to take the nexus down as fast as possible with whatever small army they have, and you’ll defend it with not much trouble (as shown in the replays).
If the opponent is more passive, you’ll have a better economy than with the 3gate FE. Of course, you will only know this by having good scouting information, and that’s why you’ll always need a probe moving around the map trying to spot some sort of early push.
-What happens if the zerg dennies further scouting when his first lings pop out and he cancels his expantion and goes for an all-in?
Well, that's one of the big issues of the build. If he cancels his expo and goes all in against yours, it'll be a tough one to hold. That won't happen often though, it would be just like going 3gate expo, and then adding 2 gates and cancelling your expo and going all in into his, these type of tricks are hard to hold by the defensive player. You just gotta try to scout as much as you can and gather whatever intel helps to react fast to what the opponent might throw at you.
-What do you do against a greedy zerg? (Like a 6 minute-ish third)
A greedy zerg will get punished bad if he takes a 3rd. Basically, you can push to the zerg's 3rd with 5-6 gates and rape him badly (with good ff's of course).
More info
+ Show Spoiler +This build is safe if the zerg player is expanding and not on close spawns (I've specified the pros and cons of it in the main thread, the good thing about this build too is that if the spawns don't favour you for it, you can opt for the 3gate FE). It even works out so good, that it can lure the zerg into a trap thinking that you're crazy of doing FE without forge, so he'll be aggressive, and that's really when the build shines, you'll stop early aggression if you block your natural and micro correctly.
The other good thing about it is having an expo up and the warp gate research fast! you can be really aggressive early on with 5 gates.
You only pull probes out of gas to build the nexus, after that, you pull them right back to the gas.
The thing with this build, is that is really situational. In safe maps, you can just opt for the FE Forge opening. In close spawn maps, you can opt for the 3gate FE or 5gate fake expansion, whatever you like. This build shines in semi open maps (such as Shattered Temple, Metalopolis) in far or opposite locations.
The main difference with the 3gate FE transition into a 5gate push, is that you're eco will be much stronger than it, and by pushing with this build, it wouldn't be much as an all in like it's in the 3gate FE transition into 5gate. As I said, the opponent seeing an early FE with no forge, might want to push himself, and this is where the build works out perfectly! By the time he hits you, you'll have a small choke blocked by 3 of your units (at least) and 2-3 gates up with warp gate research done. If he's pushing you, you gotta keep pumping units and chronoboosting your gateways while doing probes and trying to set additional gateways.
Map analysis
+ Show Spoiler +This build doesn’t work in close spawns, so please avoid it. Going 3gate FE is much safer here. It also doesn’t work against 1 base zerg players. Knowing this, let’s talk about the suitable maps for it:
-Scrap Station: this is a very zerg map. It’s really tough to defend early pushes from zerg because the ramp is big, so I’d suggest doing a more standard build here.
-Xel’Naga Caverns: I’d only do this build if I make the mistake in allowing the zerg player to do hatchery before pool first. In other case, I’d suggest doing a 3gate FE.
-Blackwater Gulch: This build is really powerful in this map. The choke points are so small, that it works out perfectly. You can pretty much hold on any type of 2base aggression from the zerg, no matter the spawn location. Again, if you don’t see the zerg expanding, delay your nexus a bit. It’s dangerous expanding faster than zerg because you might eat an early 1base push from him.
-Delta Quadrant: this map is just ugly… it’s so open that this build is impossible here. Avoid it.
-Metalopolis: Another good map for this build. I wouldn’t suggest doing it the zerg is in close location. Otherwise, it’s a good build for this map (see replay attached in thread).
-Shakuras Plateau: this map is awesome, but for Forge FE haha. If you don’t like opening with forge, then go ahead and use this build.
-Slag Pits: Forget doing this on close spots, you’ll get ripped apart. It’s even risky to do this on other spawns because the natural is wide open, so it’s really difficult to create a choke with buildings. I’d suggest 3gate FE opening in this map, to be safer.
-Tal’Darim Altar LE: doing FE Forge opening is a bit risky here, because you could easily get 6pooled and die. I’d suggest doing this build here no matter what the spawn is, just setting a choke first in your main to avoid cheeses, and then going for the nexus and setting another choke in your natural with pylon-gateways.
-The Shattered Temple: great map for this build, try avoiding it if zerg is in close spawn.
-Typhon Peaks: another good map for this build, no matter what the spawns are.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Please if you’ve enjoyed reading this, support me at my facebook page by clicking “I like”:
www.facebook.com/capoch.ar
And also my TL fan page (I gotta tell the guy to update it a bit, it's dying there lol!)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200944
I’ll try posting a couple of replays doing this build soon, so stay tunned! (also gotta figure out how to post it in the thread lol).
I’m sorry if the English is not so good, but as I said, I’m from Argentina 
Cheers!
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fucking fantastic TY, I've been thinking about viable 1 gate FE's in pvz
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Why not just 15/17 nexus if your opponent is FEing?
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The timing is just perfect with 18 nexus, that's why
Just when you place the nexus with the 18th, your cybernetics will be done at the same time and you can begin the warp gate research upgrade 
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but...you cant do anything with it that is particularly advantageous in comparison to a forge opening which is safer against zerg all ins? o.o
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On April 20 2011 10:44 sAfuRos wrote:
Why not just 15/17 nexus if your opponent is FEing?
I imagine because this way you don't have to rely on a forge+cannons to safely FE, making you hopefully not so passive.
Question Capoch, I don't do forge expands because the zerg can drone and/or get super fast mutalisks as a response, how does this build fare against fast muta's or hard droning by the zerg? Either way I'm looking forward to replays!
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Replays?
Your build definitely seems safe and viable, but I don't see how it's better than 3 gate FE or forge FE (with nexus first). What are the advantages of this over those other 2 PvZ FE builds?
If you wanted an early expansion, why not just forge FE? Especially if you're going to transition into robo/stargate play where you don't get a ton of sentries early on for energy buildup. I guess you might get that robo/stargate tech a little faster than a forge FE, but I'm not even sure about that since you're pulling probes off gas. You can also argue that you don't have to waste money on cannons, but actually if you go nexus first on bigger maps (or when you scout zerg going hatch first), you can go straight for gate after nexus and skip the forge/cannons safely.
If you want to transition into a 5 gate push, I don't see how this is better than 3 gate FE, since I feel like those gateway heavy timing attacks get their strength mainly from lots of sentries, and you're not going to have as many sentries with high energy using this build than a 3 gate FE.
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. But otherwise it seems like you're just a great player with strengths in many other areas of the game and you do well with even suboptimal builds.
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This build is safe if the zerg player is expanding and not on close spawns (I've specified the pros and cons of it in the main thread, the good thing about this build too is that if the spawns don't favour you for it, you can opt for the 3gate FE). It even works out so good, that it can lure the zerg into a trap thinking that you're crazy of doing FE without forge, so he'll be aggressive, and that's really when the build shines, you'll stop early aggression if you block your natural and micro correctly.
The other good thing about it is having an expo up and the warp gate research fast! you can be really aggressive early on with 5 gates. I just wish I could upload a replay of me doing this, it'll help deal with any doubts.
Please also consider that I'm still testing it myself, so there might be a couple of flaws of course. In easy wall in maps such as Shakuras, it might be wiser to do the forge FE opening.
Cheers
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On April 20 2011 10:54 Vaporak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 10:44 sAfuRos wrote:
Why not just 15/17 nexus if your opponent is FEing? I imagine because this way you don't have to rely on a forge+cannons to safely FE, making you hopefully not so passive. Question Capoch, I don't do forge expands because the zerg can drone and/or get super fast mutalisks as a response, how does this build fare against fast muta's or hard droning by the zerg? Either way I'm looking forward to replays!
Good question. This build works just perfect vs fast muta's and hard droning zergs. The reason is because after you got your 3 gates up, you can research hallucination and scout a bit to see what's going on. After scouting with your fake phoenixes, you can just adapt accordingly, so if you see mutas, you can go for a 5gate early blink push. Do a fake phoenix and blink into his main and just win the game
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On April 20 2011 10:54 Capoch wrote:
This build is safe if the zerg player is expanding and not on close spawns (I've specified the pros and cons of it in the main thread, the good thing about this build too is that if the spawns don't favour you for it, you can opt for the 3gate FE)
You can safely go nexus first followed by a gateway, skipping the forge on big maps and when the zerg is expanding.
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On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
Replays?
Your build definitely seems safe and viable, but I don't see how it's better than 3 gate FE or forge FE (with nexus first). What are the advantages of this over those other 2 PvZ FE builds?
If you wanted an early expansion, why not just forge FE? Especially if you're going to transition into robo/stargate play where you don't get a ton of sentries early on for energy buildup. I guess you might get that robo/stargate tech a little faster than a forge FE, but I'm not even sure about that since you're pulling probes off gas. You can also argue that you don't have to waste money on cannons, but actually if you go nexus first on bigger maps (or when you scout zerg going hatch first), you can go straight for gate after nexus and skip the forge/cannons safely.
If you want to transition into a 5 gate push, I don't see how this is better than 3 gate FE, since I feel like those gateway heavy timing attacks get their strength mainly from lots of sentries, and you're not going to have as many sentries with high energy using this build than a 3 gate FE.
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. But otherwise it seems like you're just a great player with strengths in many other areas of the game and you do well with even suboptimal builds.
You only pull probes out of gas to build the nexus, after that, you pull them right back to the gas.
The thing with this build, is that is really situational. In safe maps, you can just opt for the FE Forge opening. In close spawn maps, you can opt for the 3gate FE or 5gate fake expansion, whatever you like. This build shines in semi open maps (such as Shattered Temple, Metalopolis) in far or opposite locations.
The main difference with the 3gate FE transition into a 5gate push, is that you're eco will be much stronger than it, and by pushing with this build, it wouldn't be much as an all in like it's in the 3gate FE transition into 5gate. As I said, the opponent seeing an early FE with no forge, might want to push himself, and this is where the build works out perfectly! By the time he hits you, you'll have a small choke blocked by 3 of your units (at least) and 2-3 gates up with warp gate research done. If he's pushing you, you gotta keep pumping units and chronoboosting your gateways while doing probes and trying to set additional gateways.
I have few replays showing how the build works, only wish I could post them here in the thread.
Cheers
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Wasn't this guy on the daily on monday, and didn't spanishiwa demolish him with queen brood-lord?
Or am I imagining that?
Well, I'm sure he wasn't used to such a bizarre strategy :p
Regardless the build sounds interesting and he played well despite the silliness.
Didn't noticed if he did the build in that game though.
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On April 20 2011 11:05 drgonzhere wrote:
Wasn't this guy on the daily on monday, and didn't spanishiwa demolish him with queen brood-lord?
Or am I imagining that?
I don't see the reason in pointing this out, it doesn't discredit his build in anyway.
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For me, it seems like it would work out, but is not specifically advantageous for any sort of FE build and is less safe. I would say it gets a slightly faster 6 gate all in, but the later nexus might make that not true so i don't know.
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On April 20 2011 11:08 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 11:05 drgonzhere wrote:
Wasn't this guy on the daily on monday, and didn't spanishiwa demolish him with queen brood-lord?
Or am I imagining that? I don't see the reason in pointing this out, it doesn't discredit his build in anyway.
Lol yeah i realize i sounded a little crass, so i edited my post, he's obviously way better than me, so I apologize for being rude
I just found it unfortunate timing i guess idk
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On April 20 2011 11:10 drgonzhere wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 11:08 FataLe wrote:On April 20 2011 11:05 drgonzhere wrote:
Wasn't this guy on the daily on monday, and didn't spanishiwa demolish him with queen brood-lord?
Or am I imagining that? I don't see the reason in pointing this out, it doesn't discredit his build in anyway. Lol yeah i realize i sounded a little crass, so i edited my post, he's obviously way better than me, so I apologize for being rude I just found it unfortunate timing i guess idk
Haha, no worries mate.
Sounds really interesting, I'll make sure to try this as soon as possible.
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This build seems safer than forge expand because you are not blindly putting down a forge which commits you to FE. Rather, it takes the typical route, and with the scouting information, you either do this FE build or stay on 1 base and tech. The only question is its ability to stop early rushes by an FE zerg (as OP states, you would never do this against 1 base zerg), and that will need to be tested thoroughly, but if that checks out, I don't see why you would do forge expand instead of this.
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I'm liking this build. I definitely have to try it. Seems like this build would have better adaptability than the FFE.
Nice work Mate.
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On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good.
I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas.
Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame
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On April 20 2011 11:05 drgonzhere wrote:
Wasn't this guy on the daily on monday, and didn't spanishiwa demolish him with queen brood-lord?
Or am I imagining that?
Yes, Capoch was on Funday Monday. Yes, he did lose to Spanishiwa. No, the loss does not take away the awesomeness of the build. I'm very interested to see this build in more than one game.
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On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas. Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame
Disagree; in what situation would i ever want to have less gas, especially in the most gas intensive matchup, especially if the gas i do get contributes to a fast warpgate tech that does not really benefit me?
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would love to see some replays! esp against early roach pressure/all ins
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I'd love to see some replays! Have been playing around with various sorts of 1Gate expands in PvZ but haven't settled on anything stable yet.
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This is what HuK does against Terran, and it actually works out quite well. Haven't ever tried it against Zerg though, looks interesting, but I can't help but feel those Sentries are worth the late expo if you aren't going to forge expand
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On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas. Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame
I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well).
So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get.
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Cool nice to see the man behind the name.
Been wondering who Capoch was since SA server began.
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On April 20 2011 11:04 Capoch wrote:
You only pull probes out of gas to build the nexus, after that, you pull them right back to the gas.
Ok, really how much of a difference does that make? You have 2 probes mining gas, you put those 2 probes back on minerals for... 10 seconds so that you can get 400 minerals for a nexus 2 seconds faster? I have a really hard time believing that this is the "secret" to this build.
Look, Capoch I know you're a great player, I have no doubts that you've used this build successfully at the highest level of play, and I think the idea behind this build has great potential. But honestly this guide is just bad. You don't describe the build well (leaving out important details like when you put probes back on gas), you don't explain why it's good (how does this compare to the 2 other popular PvZ FE builds?). On top of that you say you're just testing it and don't have any replays. Why not wait until after you have more experience/testing with this build, and then create a thread with replays?
Again, I'm not bashing the player or the idea, I'm bashing the opening post. If your name wasn't behind the thread, it would get insta-closed for failing to meet multiple strat forum guideline requirements.
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Anyone got some replays? sounds nice
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On April 20 2011 16:12 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 11:04 Capoch wrote:
You only pull probes out of gas to build the nexus, after that, you pull them right back to the gas.
Ok, really how much of a difference does that make? You have 2 probes mining gas, you put those 2 probes back on minerals for... 10 seconds so that you can get 400 minerals for a nexus 2 seconds faster? I have a really hard time believing that this is the "secret" to this build. Look, Capoch I know you're a great player, I have no doubts that you've used this build successfully at the highest level of play, and I think the idea behind this build has great potential. But honestly this guide is just bad. You don't describe the build well (leaving out important details like when you put probes back on gas), you don't explain why it's good (how does this compare to the 2 other popular PvZ FE builds?). On top of that you say you're just testing it and don't have any replays. Why not wait until after you have more experience/testing with this build, and then create a thread with replays? Again, I'm not bashing the player or the idea, I'm bashing the opening post. If your name wasn't behind the thread, it would get insta-closed for failing to meet multiple strat forum guideline requirements.
You do that to get the pylon up Faster.
When I see HuK do it, recently he just keeps the two probes on gas then puts the third after he drops his Pylon , not sure if there is a big difference TBH.
Keep in mind this is PvT though, he is also aggresive after the expand-- sets up a proxy pylon and warp's in 3 Stalkers then drops a Robo. At that stage of the game the Nexus is only a 300 mineral investment as it replaces one of the early pylons as well AND you start mining efficiently from both bases very quickly.
It is't a terrible build TBH, but it seems to have some holes in PvZ though..10-12 speedlings off 2 base can nexus cancel a regular 3gate expo, this will surely fall to that :/
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On April 20 2011 15:54 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas. Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well). So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get.
Well the title implies an emphasis on the fast warpgate tech. What he does with that tech is what im curious about. Would need to see replays to see if the faster warpgate can be used towards an objective or if the economy doesn't kick in fast enough to be able to produce from a meaningful number of warpgates.
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Edit: Resubmitted my comment when I used the back button on my browser :S
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This could be a great build to use against someone who random's Zerg, but not sure if it would be superior to 3 gate FE in that situation.
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While I agree with Anihc, that Nexus first is better on the bigger maps, I think that this BO has good potential on maps where Nexus first is too risky. Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions and Shattered Temple. I'm not sure about Xel Naga, the natural is so open, good zergs might find timings to abuse this heavily.
What I've always disliked about Nexus first is the heavy, heavy commitment you make BEFORE actually knowing wtf your opponent is doing. This comes pretty much by definition, since you don't make a gate. While this build might be inferior to Nexus first, it's definitely safer since you can - at any time - decide to just not pull probes of gas.
However, I agree with this:
On April 20 2011 16:12 Anihc wrote:
Again, I'm not bashing the player or the idea, I'm bashing the opening post. If your name wasn't behind the thread, it would get insta-closed for failing to meet multiple strat forum guideline requirements.
Capoch, you are an amazing player who made a so-so OP. It seems like currently you are just winging the build and go with what your gut tells you. While this may work for you because you have great gamesense (or more negatively put: because your opponents don't know how to react properly yet), a good guide must account for - if not all - then many of the usual follow-ups.
Some questions that you need to answer in my opinion for this [d]iscussion to become really [g]uide-worthy:
a) When to build additional production structures if zerg expands. Do you cut probes shortly, like in the classic one gate FE vs terran?
b) What to do vs TWO-base all-ins, namely mass roach accompanied by a few lings. Maybe you need to implement an earlier forge on some maps to be safe?
c) TRANSITIONS! You really need to go at least into mid-game with your guide. You won't have any scouting intel and don't have enough sentries to make hallucination a good investment. What do you build at this zero-mapcontrol-point in the game based on which tells? Nexus first / forge FE is very often followed up by stargate, 3 gate expand more often followed up by robo. Your build is "in the middle": which route do you normally take, and why?
Especially, what to do against these zerg follow-ups:
Fast 2 base hydra --> your build is low on sentries, the initial push seems very threatening to me without the sentry-count to block hydras out until colossi are on the field. Or do timings work out?
Fast 3rd by zerg --> doesn't seem that big of a problem, nevertheless since you will have very low scouting intel at this point. How to prepare, how to react?
d) Map-analysis: You should depict which maps are more suitable for your build and which aren't. Counter-intuitively I think (!) - what Anihc has already mentioned - that due to the possible 15 Nex / forge FE, this build is quite weak on larger maps. Because if you want to pressure, you go 3 gate expo, if you want to macro, you can 15 Nex / forge FE. On Xel Naga however, I think (!) that this build might be too risky. Maybe (!) on Typhon Peaks and Backwhater gulch too? You should notice the level of uncertainty here.
Same as Anihc, I appreciate you posting here and don't want to bash on your skills. I just hope you don't "give up" on this thread and find the time and take the effort, to include all the things that unfortunately are still missing.
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I guess it's allright vs a fast expanding Zerg, but what about vs a zerg that pools at 13/14 and takes a fast gas for speedlings, and starts his expand around 4' ? You don't know if he's FE or all-in until he drops his hatch, so it sounds very risky to do it in that scenario. Basically, this only ever works vs a Zerg expanding first, and I don't know for you, but I don't see too many Zergs doing hatch-1st nowadays, except on huge maps where there's a good chance they'll be scouted late, in which case you're better doing a forge FE anyway.
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Thanks for posting !
This strategy looks to be very map dependent as others have already pointed out and could fill the gap between gate expand and nexus/forge first builds.
I have a question, your core finishes at about the same time as you put your nexus down, wouldn't it be a good idea to time the probes on gaz so you get exactly 50 gaz as your core finishes ?
That way you can put 3 probes on gaz at a certain time and not have to pull them in and out of gaz (which in my experience makes you lose a lot of mining time).
I know I always like to time my builds so I can build stuff with probes coming out of the nexus and never have to pull probes out of mining because that makes you lose A LOT of mining time.
Also for example with the wall-in you used for your natural on metalopolis vs spanishiwa, how do you deal with harassing zerglings attacking the pylon on the far side (far from the opening where the zealot is) ?
Once again thanks for posting here, we really need high level players to share their strategies. The comments from the blue posts are true however, a bit more complete OP with replays would be nice.
Looking forward to try this out
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On April 20 2011 15:54 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas. Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well). So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get.
I totally understand what you're saying, but as I said before, I do have replays doing this strat successfully, I just don't know where to post them. If you want send me a PM with your MSN and I can send them to you later today.
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I dont see how this strategy would work if the zerg just puts up another hatch. There is no way the aggression could come fast enough if youre putting down a 18 nexus and still trying to play agressively. this leaves many openings to some of those more greedy zergs.
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On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:While I agree with Anihc, that Nexus first is better on the bigger maps, I think that this BO has good potential on maps where Nexus first is too risky. Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions and Shattered Temple. I'm not sure about Xel Naga, the natural is so open, good zergs might find timings to abuse this heavily. What I've always disliked about Nexus first is the heavy, heavy commitment you make BEFORE actually knowing wtf your opponent is doing. This comes pretty much by definition, since you don't make a gate. While this build might be inferior to Nexus first, it's definitely safer since you can - at any time - decide to just not pull probes of gas. However, I agree with this: Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 16:12 Anihc wrote:
Again, I'm not bashing the player or the idea, I'm bashing the opening post. If your name wasn't behind the thread, it would get insta-closed for failing to meet multiple strat forum guideline requirements. Capoch, you are an amazing player who made a so-so OP. It seems like currently you are just winging the build and go with what your gut tells you. While this may work for you because you have great gamesense (or more negatively put: because your opponents don't know how to react properly yet), a good guide must account for - if not all - then many of the usual follow-ups. Some questions that you need to answer in my opinion for this [d]iscussion to become really [g]uide-worthy: a) When to build additional production structures if zerg expands. Do you cut probes shortly, like in the classic one gate FE vs terran? b) What to do vs TWO-base all-ins, namely mass roach accompanied by a few lings. Maybe you need to implement an earlier forge on some maps to be safe? c) TRANSITIONS! You really need to go at least into mid-game with your guide. You won't have any scouting intel and don't have enough sentries to make hallucination a good investment. What do you build at this zero-mapcontrol-point in the game based on which tells? Nexus first / forge FE is very often followed up by stargate, 3 gate expand more often followed up by robo. Your build is "in the middle": which route do you normally take, and why? Especially, what to do against these zerg follow-ups: Fast 2 base hydra --> your build is low on sentries, the initial push seems very threatening to me without the sentry-count to block hydras out until colossi are on the field. Or do timings work out? Fast 3rd by zerg --> doesn't seem that big of a problem, nevertheless since you will have very low scouting intel at this point. How to prepare, how to react? d) Map-analysis: You should depict which maps are more suitable for your build and which aren't. Counter-intuitively I think (!) - what Anihc has already mentioned - that due to the possible 15 Nex / forge FE, this build is quite weak on larger maps. Because if you want to pressure, you go 3 gate expo, if you want to macro, you can 15 Nex / forge FE. On Xel Naga however, I think (!) that this build might be too risky. Maybe (!) on Typhon Peaks and Backwhater gulch too? You should notice the level of uncertainty here. Same as Anihc, I appreciate you posting here and don't want to bash on your skills. I just hope you don't "give up" on this thread and find the time and take the effort, to include all the things that unfortunately are still missing.
Hi sleepingdog,
Thanks for posting this. I know the OP wasnt very good, I wrote it down fast just explaining the basics. I'll try to get more detail soon.
Once I'm back from work, I'll answer all the questions you've made and try to back them up with a couple of replays.
Cheers
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On April 20 2011 20:14 Capoch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 15:54 Anihc wrote:On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas. Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well). So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get. I totally understand what you're saying, but as I said before, I do have replays doing this strat successfully, I just don't know where to post them. If you want send me a PM with your MSN and I can send them to you later today.
A good page for member-hosted reps is this one:
http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.php
If you upload your games you get a link that you can copy, so reps appear like this (notice that this is already the download-link):
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-192357.jpg)
Also looking forward to your response
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What is the point of taking probes off gas if you have 16 probes on minerals already? You just oversaturate the minerals with every aditional probe harvesting at around 15% of its normal potential.
On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions
Wasnt Metalopolis fixed with latest patch so that close positions are not available anymore?
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On April 20 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote:What is the point of taking probes off gas if you have 16 probes on minerals already? You just oversaturate the minerals with every aditional probe harvesting at around 15% of its normal potential. Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions Wasnt Metalopolis fixed with latest patch so that close positions are not available anymore?
Was it? I seriously thought that just applied to the MLG-version.
Damn all those map-position-changes seriously start to confuse me lol
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On April 20 2011 21:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote:What is the point of taking probes off gas if you have 16 probes on minerals already? You just oversaturate the minerals with every aditional probe harvesting at around 15% of its normal potential. On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:
Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions Wasnt Metalopolis fixed with latest patch so that close positions are not available anymore? Was it? I seriously thought that just applied to the MLG-version. Damn all those map-position-changes seriously start to confuse me lol
well I think it also applies for recent GSL (some TvT yesterday both players not scouting close positions) and TSL (MC interview), but I'd like someone to confirm the general idea still.
2Capoch: I'd like to see how do you respond to 2 hatch roach semi-allin where he doesnt take lingspeed just pumps roaches as gas allows and drones with the leftover minerals.
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Replays would be awesome...nicetry in the funday monday
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On April 20 2011 21:13 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 20:14 Capoch wrote:On April 20 2011 15:54 Anihc wrote:On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas. Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well). So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get. I totally understand what you're saying, but as I said before, I do have replays doing this strat successfully, I just don't know where to post them. If you want send me a PM with your MSN and I can send them to you later today. A good page for member-hosted reps is this one: http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.phpIf you upload your games you get a link that you can copy, so reps appear like this (notice that this is already the download-link): Also looking forward to your response
Thanks for explaining how to upload replays.
Here are 2 replays of me doing this build:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204393.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204395.jpg)
I'll keep on posting more replays of this build soon, and I gotta keep playing too :D
I'm gonna answer your questions soon, just gotta find more time
Cheers
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On April 20 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote:
What is the point of taking probes off gas if you have 16 probes on minerals already? You just oversaturate the minerals with every aditional probe harvesting at around 15% of its normal potential.
It doesn't oversaturate. The 17th and 18th probe don't provide the same amount of minerals per second as the 1st through 16th, but they do provide some. If you don't need the gas (which I'm assuming you don't) it will get you your buildings faster.
[edit] And the most exciting thing about this build in my view is that you can open as if you're going to 3gate sentry expand and then reactively switch to something very like this build if you scout a no-gas expand. Trying to go 15+ Nexus from the outset will cost you games on smaller maps where a reactive switch to this build wouldn't.
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I have to agree with the strength being you're not expoing completely blindly. Ruling out close spawns before nexus goes down can win games.
I've been trying one gate expos in response to seeing a 15 hatch on four player maps where I was thinking 3gate expo. The build order is clean, I'm hesitant about pulling out of gas briefly but I'll try it.
I guess, what I'd like to know is what is your most common transition from there? Five gate which hits with more units but less sentry energy? Is that even beneficial?
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I saw the build and I loved it. So beautifully timed and smooth. I think it is a perfect opening leading into a 6gate with no robo. It will be so quick that lots of zergs who normally defend with burrowed roaches wont have the time for that. Offcourse you can get a robo or +1 or whatever. But it just seems to gear you up for superfast big gateway aggression.
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I have been doing this build as well in customs trying to figure out a way to safely get a faster expansion than the the standard 3 gate expand. As previously mentioned on the larger maps a nexus first build works great but on maps such as metal or temple that is far from safe. I also keep the probes off of gas until I get 3 additional gateways built as a sim-city wall between my ramp and the nat nexus. After those gateways go up I put 3 back in the gas and at the same time take the second gas in my main.
With that ordering I have around 26 probes with 4 warp gates up and an expansion at the normal 4 gate timing. From here you can either double crono on probes to go heavy econ or go full crono on the gates and go put some pressure on. I was in the process of refining my build and getting some replays to write my own guide but it seems I was too slow!
*Edit for spelling
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On April 21 2011 01:22 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote:
What is the point of taking probes off gas if you have 16 probes on minerals already? You just oversaturate the minerals with every aditional probe harvesting at around 15% of its normal potential. It doesn't oversaturate. The 17th and 18th probe don't provide the same amount of minerals per second as the 1st through 16th, but they do provide some. If you don't need the gas (which I'm assuming you don't) it will get you your buildings faster. [edit] And the most exciting thing about this build in my view is that you can open as if you're going to 3gate sentry expand and then reactively switch to something very like this build if you scout a no-gas expand. Trying to go 15+ Nexus from the outset will cost you games on smaller maps where a reactive switch to this build wouldn't.
I still don't see how much of a difference taking those 2 probes off for a few seconds will make. As much as you want to believe that every second matters in high level play, the truth is getting another gateway or zealot 2 seconds faster (do you even get 2 seconds from doing this?) is not going to matter 99% of the time in this situation. We're not talking about a 12 gate vs a 13 gate defending a really early pool or something, where those seconds will matter. And anyway, when do you not need more gas in PvZ lol
Also, I can argue that nexus first is a reactive build too. Nexus first is actually still safe on small maps, I can safely 15 nex first vs a 14 pool on close positions metal. Then if I scout zerg going hatch first, I just drop my forge first instead of nexus and cannon rush.
EDIT: A few more posts while I was typing up mine. I think I understand now, if you're not comfortable with forge FE builds and started the game going 3 gate FE and scouted a hatch first by the Zerg, then you can do this build to get your second nexus faster. Also, your mid-game plan is macro-oriented and you plan to go robo or stargate. If you plan to do a warpgate timing attack, I still think 3 gate FE is better than this even against a zerg hatch first because of the additional sentry and sentry energy you'll have.
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On April 21 2011 01:16 Capoch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 21:13 sleepingdog wrote:On April 20 2011 20:14 Capoch wrote:On April 20 2011 15:54 Anihc wrote:On April 20 2011 13:29 Belha wrote:On April 20 2011 10:54 Anihc wrote:
The thing that doesn't make sense is that you pull probes off gas. If you can make this build work without having to pull probes off gas, then I can see why this build may be good. I'm one of your macro builds fan Anihc, but that sentence is wrong. Its the oposite. Any build refined to perfection should include moving workers in or out of gas, specially for early timmings when the gas requirements are so tight. I mean, maybe the Capoch build could be better with some improvements, like "not moving probes out of gas", but a build is not bad just because it moves probes from gas. Nice variation for FE builds Capoch, is nice to take zergs out of their regular metagame I only see one advantage this build has over a nexus first build, and that is you get earlier gas. This can be extremely useful because it means faster robo or stargate tech, or earlier sentries for more forcefields when you move out with your warpgate timing attack. What other advantage does it have? It's not safer. It doesn't give you a better economy. Capoch did mention that you can often "fool" the zerg into being overly aggressive, but I've actually been experimenting with going nexus -> gate and skipping the forge, and I've found it to be pretty successful on large maps or when zerg goes hatch first (and these are conditions that Capoch stated are necessary for his build to work as well). So why go gate core nexus when you can go nexus gate core? Because you get earlier gas. And by removing probes off gas, you're losing the only advantage you get. I totally understand what you're saying, but as I said before, I do have replays doing this strat successfully, I just don't know where to post them. If you want send me a PM with your MSN and I can send them to you later today. A good page for member-hosted reps is this one: http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.phpIf you upload your games you get a link that you can copy, so reps appear like this (notice that this is already the download-link): Also looking forward to your response Thanks for explaining how to upload replays. Here are 2 replays of me doing this build: I'll keep on posting more replays of this build soon, and I gotta keep playing too :D I'm gonna answer your questions soon, just gotta find more time Cheers
Thanks. Add these replays to your OP (your opening post). I'd like to see how it holds against some Roach heavy action.
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On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:While I agree with Anihc, that Nexus first is better on the bigger maps, I think that this BO has good potential on maps where Nexus first is too risky. Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions and Shattered Temple. I'm not sure about Xel Naga, the natural is so open, good zergs might find timings to abuse this heavily. What I've always disliked about Nexus first is the heavy, heavy commitment you make BEFORE actually knowing wtf your opponent is doing. This comes pretty much by definition, since you don't make a gate. While this build might be inferior to Nexus first, it's definitely safer since you can - at any time - decide to just not pull probes of gas. However, I agree with this: Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 16:12 Anihc wrote:
Again, I'm not bashing the player or the idea, I'm bashing the opening post. If your name wasn't behind the thread, it would get insta-closed for failing to meet multiple strat forum guideline requirements. Capoch, you are an amazing player who made a so-so OP. It seems like currently you are just winging the build and go with what your gut tells you. While this may work for you because you have great gamesense (or more negatively put: because your opponents don't know how to react properly yet), a good guide must account for - if not all - then many of the usual follow-ups. Some questions that you need to answer in my opinion for this [d]iscussion to become really [g]uide-worthy: a) When to build additional production structures if zerg expands. Do you cut probes shortly, like in the classic one gate FE vs terran? b) What to do vs TWO-base all-ins, namely mass roach accompanied by a few lings. Maybe you need to implement an earlier forge on some maps to be safe? c) TRANSITIONS! You really need to go at least into mid-game with your guide. You won't have any scouting intel and don't have enough sentries to make hallucination a good investment. What do you build at this zero-mapcontrol-point in the game based on which tells? Nexus first / forge FE is very often followed up by stargate, 3 gate expand more often followed up by robo. Your build is "in the middle": which route do you normally take, and why? Especially, what to do against these zerg follow-ups: Fast 2 base hydra --> your build is low on sentries, the initial push seems very threatening to me without the sentry-count to block hydras out until colossi are on the field. Or do timings work out? Fast 3rd by zerg --> doesn't seem that big of a problem, nevertheless since you will have very low scouting intel at this point. How to prepare, how to react? d) Map-analysis: You should depict which maps are more suitable for your build and which aren't. Counter-intuitively I think (!) - what Anihc has already mentioned - that due to the possible 15 Nex / forge FE, this build is quite weak on larger maps. Because if you want to pressure, you go 3 gate expo, if you want to macro, you can 15 Nex / forge FE. On Xel Naga however, I think (!) that this build might be too risky. Maybe (!) on Typhon Peaks and Backwhater gulch too? You should notice the level of uncertainty here. Same as Anihc, I appreciate you posting here and don't want to bash on your skills. I just hope you don't "give up" on this thread and find the time and take the effort, to include all the things that unfortunately are still missing.
Most answers to your questions:
a) Basically after putting down your nexus, you want to start your warp gate research and do a zealot. After that, start the probe production again, and move back 3 probes to the gas. You also want to start walling your natural in with a pylon-gateway-nexus-gateway-pylon or whatever necessary, leaving a small choke that will be blocked by 1 or 2 zealots. The chronoboost here depends on how the opponent reacts when he spots the nexus at your natural. If you want to be really safe, then chronoboost your gate and the warp gate research; if you feel comfortable, then chronoboost your nexus and warp gate research, or mix around a bit.
b) This build is really good against pushes because you’ll be getting the warp gate upgrade fairly soon, and you’ll be pumping units from 3 gates early. It’s not good against pushes in close spawns, that’s why I don’t recommend doing it in that situation, but if the opponent is in other locations, then you can stop some pushes (shown in the replays I’ve posted). An early forge or even a semi early hallucination just to get some important scouting intel and reacting accordingly to what the opponent is doing might be good. The forge is nice for the +1 and just to be safe of burrowed roaches. The beauty of the build lies in taking a nexus so fast without a forge; by doing this, most opponents will desperately react by trying to take the nexus down as fast as possible with whatever small army they have, and you’ll defend it with not much trouble (as shown in the replays).
If the opponent is more passive, you’ll have a better economy than with the 3gate FE. Of course, you will only know this by having good scouting information, and that’s why you’ll always need a probe moving around the map trying to spot some sort of early push.
c) I`ll come back with you later on the transitions topic. I need to do a lot of testing with the different transitions with this build, and see which one is most suitable, but that also of course depends on the style of the opponent. If you are facing an aggressive one that’s been pushing your natural a lot, then I’d suggest following the build with 2-3 more gates, holding on the push and being aggressive yourself, or taking another expo. If the opponent is passive, then a stargate would be a good idea. I still need to play more passive players, because most zergs have reacted aggressively when they see this build, and that’s exactly what I want them to do.
d) Map-analysis: this build doesn’t work in close spawns, so please avoid it. Going 3gate FE is much safer here. It also doesn’t work against 1 base zerg players. Knowing this, let’s talk about the suitable maps for it:
-Scrap Station: this is a very zerg map. It’s really tough to defend early pushes from zerg because the ramp is big, so I’d suggest doing a more standard build here.
-Xel’Naga Caverns: I’d only do this build if I make the mistake in allowing the zerg player to do hatchery before pool first. In other case, I’d suggest doing a 3gate FE.
-Blackwater Gulch: This build is really powerful in this map. The choke points are so small, that it works out perfectly. You can pretty much hold on any type of 2base aggression from the zerg, no matter the spawn location. Again, if you don’t see the zerg expanding, delay your nexus a bit. It’s dangerous expanding faster than zerg because you might eat an early 1base push from him.
-Delta Quadrant: this map is just ugly… it’s so open that this build is impossible here. Avoid it.
-Metalopolis: Another good map for this build. I wouldn’t suggest doing it the zerg is in close location. Otherwise, it’s a good build for this map (see replay attached in thread).
-Shakuras Plateau: this map is awesome, but for Forge FE haha. If you don’t like opening with forge, then go ahead and use this build.
-Slag Pits: Forget doing this on close spots, you’ll get ripped apart. It’s even risky to do this on other spawns because the natural is wide open, so it’s really difficult to create a choke with buildings. I’d suggest 3gate FE opening in this map, to be safer.
-Tal’Darim Altar LE: doing FE Forge opening is a bit risky here, because you could easily get 6pooled and die. I’d suggest doing this build here no matter what the spawn is, just setting a choke first in your main to avoid cheeses, and then going for the nexus and setting another choke in your natural with pylon-gateways.
-The Shattered Temple: great map for this build, try avoiding it if zerg is in close spawn.
-Typhon Peaks: another good map for this build, no matter what the spawns are.
Hope this helps out a bit, glad to answer these questions. I'll keep testing the build and post any discoveries or good transitions that might complement the build!
Cheers
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I really like how this transitions into a faster 5 gate push. What are some other follow-ups you've had success with?
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Just tried your build and I really like it. One thing I did differently was I walled off on the low ground with my first pylon and gateway, which you can still block with a zealot. Seemed to make the low ground sim city easier.
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On April 21 2011 01:52 Anihc wrote:
EDIT: A few more posts while I was typing up mine. I think I understand now, if you're not comfortable with forge FE builds and started the game going 3 gate FE and scouted a hatch first by the Zerg, then you can do this build to get your second nexus faster. Also, your mid-game plan is macro-oriented and you plan to go robo or stargate. If you plan to do a warpgate timing attack, I still think 3 gate FE is better than this even against a zerg hatch first because of the additional sentry and sentry energy you'll have.
It does seem like any conventional 5- or 6- warpgate allin would be better off a 3gate expand, because of the build up sentry energy. However this build will allow more minerals (and even gas if you really wanted to shoot for the fast 4 gasses) to be mined in the long run, so any composition that isn't as sentry reliant (VR Colossus, 2 stargates, idunno you're the protoss expert lol) would probably benefit. Similarly, although you argue nexus first trumps all of these situations, and it is a very strong opening, there are reasons why all protoss haven't been adopting the nexus first play. Some of the associated vulnerabilities are early roaches, and/or a proxy hatchery. This build seems more comfortable vs both of those forms of aggression by zerg, mostly due to the fast core and option to immediately start stalker production once the nexus starts.
The most interesting thing I see with this build is how protoss copes without relying on a sentry heavy midgame; something we're all more than familiar with. dt's, blink stalkers, or hyper low gateway VR/colo all seem like potential options.
It definitely seems like a cool timing that I can see assisting protosses who are still looking for a comfortable style of pvz, thanks for the idea!
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
Don't let the thread die, I put a lot of though into it!
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Is there any way you think this would work in a PvT, or is it just too risky?
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huk does this in almost every pvt, altough he obviosly doesnt get the zealot first as he doesnt need it
he also usually transitions into 5 gate like capoch, and it usually wins him the game
i like this build, i've been working on it and i recommend everyone try putting your 2nd pylon on the low ground like capoch does in the second replay so you can get that 2nd gate up faster and time it with warp gate finishing
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On April 21 2011 16:18 Drolla wrote:
Is there any way you think this would work in a PvT, or is it just too risky?
As said above, this is very common in PvT. I use this strat like every game when the spawns are not close. I usually get 1 sentry, 1 stalker and 1 zealot to hold of a early attack. Have not played in a while thou so can´t share any updated replays but when I get active again i´ll try posting some if you want.
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On April 21 2011 04:34 Capoch wrote:
c) I`ll come back with you later on the transitions topic. I need to do a lot of testing with the different transitions with this build, and see which one is most suitable, but that also of course depends on the style of the opponent. If you are facing an aggressive one that’s been pushing your natural a lot, then I’d suggest following the build with 2-3 more gates, holding on the push and being aggressive yourself, or taking another expo. If the opponent is passive, then a stargate would be a good idea. I still need to play more passive players, because most zergs have reacted aggressively when they see this build, and that’s exactly what I want them to do.
Thanks for your long answer.
I totally get where you're coming from, when I started one gate expanding PvT every terran would just all-in me game after game after game so that it was actually impossible to figure out how to proceed in midgame. The build I would be most interested in is a fast ling/hydra creep-highway push. Normally I deal with hydras by just going for colossi hard and use every last forcefield I've got for forcefielding the hydras out until the first colossus is available. Nevertheless your build is lower on sentries and potentially a bit slower on robotics tech. I'm not saying it can't be done, I simply would be most interested how playing against this push works out for you.
d) Map-analysis:
Thanks for that too, it concurs with most of which I've guessed. The only surprising thing is, that the build is good on Backwater Gulch, I've always been too scared due to the dual entrances to the nat...but I'll definitely give it a try.
What I'd like to know is, if you've ever run into problems with this build on Typhon peaks. Walling off there is "almost" as difficult as on slag pits (not taking insane rush distance on close pos into account obviously). I figured that on Typhon peaks the threat of two base ling/roach pushes is quite significant? Or does the mapsize provide you with enough time to get a sufficient gateway(-unit-)count?
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I've seen some people do some variant of this, a fast nexus with 2 gates. I had 15 hatched, and attacked with about 16 lings when my speed had finished, and was able to either force him to forcefield his units back, and force a cancel on the nexus, or just kill his units completely and to force him to wall off the top of his ramp thus putting him behind. If I had opened 14p14g, speed would finish even quicker, and with a decent amount of lings I don't see how your few units can cope; since you're also mining alot less gas (pulling 2 probes off gas to minerals) you will have few sentries.
Basically I'm saying, this might not work vs a zerg who scouts it and responds with alot of lings.
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On April 21 2011 18:06 Valckrie wrote:
I've seen some people do some variant of this, a fast nexus with 2 gates. I had 15 hatched, and attacked with about 16 lings when my speed had finished, and was able to either force him to forcefield his units back, and force a cancel on the nexus, or just kill his units completely and to force him to wall off the top of his ramp thus putting him behind. If I had opened 14p14g, speed would finish even quicker, and with a decent amount of lings I don't see how your few units can cope; since you're also mining alot less gas (pulling 2 probes off gas to minerals) you will have few sentries.
Basically I'm saying, this might not work vs a zerg who scouts it and responds with alot of lings.
Maybe it's because this build is designed to work in semi-open maps vs FE users...
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Allright, yesterday evening I've been trying out the build, and I must say it has some very good feelings, timing-wise. Everything aligns quite perfectly, which I think is the beauty of it ( note: I'm playing at masters level, but it's irrelevant for this post since I've tested it out of ladder ).
More interesting, I've been comparing it with the other standard builds, namely the 3 gate expand and the forge FE. I tested vs an easy computer to avoid early agression and focus on the build's economic and army potential.
At 10' into the game, I've found that it was very close to the forge FE. Roughly 55 probes and 45 pop for units.
It's significantly better than a 3-gate expand, which has a similar army, but a -10 difference in probes count.
I like the fact that it's a standard opener, and only deviates "late" ( when you pull probes out of gaz ). This gives you time to adapt and stay on a 3/4 gate if you see the Zerg is all-in. Also, the forge FE requires you to spend at least 300 ( a forge and a canon ), which are static investiments. You can also get hit by a zerglings runby in your main if you scout too late and see the Zerg has gone for a zerglings rush.
The sim-city placement of your buildings at your natural is key. Yesterday when I trained in custom games I lost to a Zerg that built an expand and went all-in mass zerglings from his 2 hatchs, and that's because I neglected my buildings placement.
I'm a little concerned about one thing, which are the first units which are produced. A zealot first is a given; however you don't have enough gaz to produce a sentry immediately as a second unit, but you have enough for a stalker. I'm not sure if it's better to produce a stalker asap, or wait for 50 more gaz and chrono boost a sentry.
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On April 21 2011 23:19 Nyast wrote:
I'm a little concerned about one thing, which are the first units which are produced. A zealot first is a given; however you don't have enough gaz to produce a sentry immediately as a second unit, but you have enough for a stalker. I'm not sure if it's better to produce a stalker asap, or wait for 50 more gaz and chrono boost a sentry.
I've been theory-crafting about this myself...and thought why the hell not add a 2nd zealot while waiting for the necessary gas? I only build a stalker with 3 gate expo to kill the drone and keep zerg in the dark a little longer (they have to prepare for 4 gate, DTs etc.). But with this build it's not like you could disguise anything really. Just letting the gateway idle doesn't seem optimal either obviously.
Since at this stage in the game a sudden 2 base mass ling all-in is the most immediate threat and since against mass lings additional zealots are always good to have...why not build a 2nd zealot?
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On April 21 2011 16:59 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:34 Capoch wrote:
c) I`ll come back with you later on the transitions topic. I need to do a lot of testing with the different transitions with this build, and see which one is most suitable, but that also of course depends on the style of the opponent. If you are facing an aggressive one that’s been pushing your natural a lot, then I’d suggest following the build with 2-3 more gates, holding on the push and being aggressive yourself, or taking another expo. If the opponent is passive, then a stargate would be a good idea. I still need to play more passive players, because most zergs have reacted aggressively when they see this build, and that’s exactly what I want them to do. Thanks for your long answer. I totally get where you're coming from, when I started one gate expanding PvT every terran would just all-in me game after game after game so that it was actually impossible to figure out how to proceed in midgame. The build I would be most interested in is a fast ling/hydra creep-highway push. Normally I deal with hydras by just going for colossi hard and use every last forcefield I've got for forcefielding the hydras out until the first colossus is available. Nevertheless your build is lower on sentries and potentially a bit slower on robotics tech. I'm not saying it can't be done, I simply would be most interested how playing against this push works out for you. Thanks for that too, it concurs with most of which I've guessed. The only surprising thing is, that the build is good on Backwater Gulch, I've always been too scared due to the dual entrances to the nat...but I'll definitely give it a try. What I'd like to know is, if you've ever run into problems with this build on Typhon peaks. Walling off there is "almost" as difficult as on slag pits (not taking insane rush distance on close pos into account obviously). I figured that on Typhon peaks the threat of two base ling/roach pushes is quite significant? Or does the mapsize provide you with enough time to get a sufficient gateway(-unit-)count?
Yes, Typhon Peaks is similar to Slag Pits, but the huge rush distance gives you enough time to defend it properly. If you don't see a fast push from the zerg, you can mass up a decent amount of units and move a bit ahead of your natural and defend the middle choke. Keep the other entrance scouted always to avoid a push from that way.
I'll start try a bit of this build in PvT too and see how it works out.
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On April 21 2011 23:25 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 23:19 Nyast wrote:
I'm a little concerned about one thing, which are the first units which are produced. A zealot first is a given; however you don't have enough gaz to produce a sentry immediately as a second unit, but you have enough for a stalker. I'm not sure if it's better to produce a stalker asap, or wait for 50 more gaz and chrono boost a sentry.
I've been theory-crafting about this myself...and thought why the hell not add a 2nd zealot while waiting for the necessary gas? I only build a stalker with 3 gate expo to kill the drone and keep zerg in the dark a little longer (they have to prepare for 4 gate, DTs etc.). But with this build it's not like you could disguise anything really. Just letting the gateway idle doesn't seem optimal either obviously. Since at this stage in the game a sudden 2 base mass ling all-in is the most immediate threat and since against mass lings additional zealots are always good to have...why not build a 2nd zealot?
A 2nd zealot is a good choice, like in one of the games I've posted. The stalker is not really necessary.
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I don't see the real benefit of this over something like a 2 or 3 gate sentry expand.
You expand faster with it but you are also collecting much less gas with it and get sentries much later. Gas is terribly important in PvZ and this strat is mining minerals for some with more then 16 probes while it could be getting gas.
So overall the question is, is a earlier nexus (about a minute i guess) worth more then collecting gas earlier, using your probes more efficient and building up sentry energy. In a sense sentries with energy have some economic power as well as they can pressure and force zerg to have a bit more defense.
I guess there might be some merit on those maps where FFE is impossible but the push distance is too big to do any sort of 'shark mode' pressure. Thinking typhon peaks and cross position for some other maps here. In that scenario I rather expand with double gas and sentries still though just getting less gates before the nexus. 1 or 2 gates instead of 3 is perfectly viable on some of those bigger maps anyway especially if they have a bit of a choked main.
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On April 22 2011 01:18 Markwerf wrote:
So overall the question is, is a earlier nexus (about a minute i guess) worth more then collecting gas earlier, using your probes more efficient and building up sentry energy. In a sense sentries with energy have some economic power as well as they can pressure and force zerg to have a bit more defense.
Well, this question can also be asked when discussing the pros and cons of forgeFE/NexFirst. And here I think many would agree that the economic strenght of those are really worth giving up the early energy-build-up for sentries. If you play a straight macro game, you won't need the sentries very "early" anyways. Just think about it, in the heavy macro situations where toss goes towards a 3rd pretty early (maybe while going stargate, maybe while going DTs, maybe while going straight robo...doesn't really matter, tbh), zergs who don't all-in pose no threat to a well positioned toss army.
The real strength of this build is imo that is poses a good reactionary response to an early hatch play that you can't prevent due to a large scouting path. On typhon peaks, early hatches will go down 66% of the time, same as on backwater gulch (unless you go straight for the natural looking in every corner for a hidden drone). Additionally, on shattered temple, moving out early is actually impossible due to the huge large middle area. Until now it was basicly common consensus that you "had" to go zealot/stalker pressure, or something similar against hatch first. The way this build is structured, I think it could be a nice macro-oriented response to an early hatch play from zerg. It is correct, however, that 5/6 gate attacks aren't "that" strong due to the lack of sentry-energy. Nevertheless, if you don't rely on those and plan on, say, getting an early stargate, maybe accompanied with a forge and 1-2 cannons against burrow-roach-play, then I wouldn't consider this lack of very early sentry-energy that big of a problem.
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So I've done some more testing, and came up with really nice results.
I've tried doing this build against a good terran player (Neans); I've tweaked the build a bit, using an extra chronoboost on the nexus. Replay below:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204624.jpg)
Also decided to try this build on Scrap Station vs a top zerg player (DarkForce). Again, the result was really positive; I dealt with no trouble vs mass roaches. Replay below:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204625.jpg)
Hope you enjoy!
Cheers
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On April 22 2011 05:22 Capoch wrote:Also decided to try this build on Scrap Station vs a top zerg player (DarkForce). Again, the result was really positive; I dealt with no trouble vs mass roaches. Replay below:
Cool, will definitely watch when I get home from work, Scrap Station has always been a weird map for me. ForgeFE is terribly risky due to the large entrance AND the rocks, 3 gate expo is meh since the rush distance is so huge and you can't fake pressure.
Didn't realize you played on EU though, or did Darkforce play on NA?
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On April 22 2011 17:15 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 05:22 Capoch wrote:Also decided to try this build on Scrap Station vs a top zerg player (DarkForce). Again, the result was really positive; I dealt with no trouble vs mass roaches. Replay below: Cool, will definitely watch when I get home from work, Scrap Station has always been a weird map for me. ForgeFE is terribly risky due to the large entrance AND the rocks, 3 gate expo is meh since the rush distance is so huge and you can't fake pressure. Didn't realize you played on EU though, or did Darkforce play on NA?
Yes, I have an EU account too just for practice :D
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What happens if the zerg dennies further scouting when his first lings pop out and he cancels his expantion and goes for an all-in? I'm not very sure but it seems like you'll be in big trouble then.
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What do you do against a greedy zerg? (like a 6 minute-ish third)
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I think this build excels on maps where there is a lot diversity of Zerg openings. XC for example is a map I have FFE'd plenty on, but rather than get stuck dealing with stupid Roach busts every other game, I can confirm his hatch going down before dropping my Nex.
Has anyone else tried to wait and just put down the Nexus against a Pool first opening after they 20ish Hatch? I figure if you go Zealot-Zealot you can still Nexus as long as they don't throwdown an immediate Roach Warren.
I haven't had any games against good Zergs to prove it but I think it could be safe with some probe cutting and aggressively going to 3 gates and then 5.
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On April 23 2011 02:37 Tennoji wrote:
What happens if the zerg dennies further scouting when his first lings pop out and he cancels his expantion and goes for an all-in? I'm not very sure but it seems like you'll be in big trouble then.
Well, that's one of the big issues of the build. If he cancels his expo and goes all in against yours, it'll be a tough one to hold. That won't happen often though, it would be just like going 3gate expo, and then adding 2 gates and cancelling your expo and going all in into his, these type of tricks are hard to hold by the defensive player. You just gotta try to scout as much as you can and gather whatever intel helps to react fast to what the opponent might throw at you.
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On April 23 2011 02:40 Arcanefrost wrote:
What do you do against a greedy zerg? (like a 6 minute-ish third)
A greedy zerg will get punished bad if he takes a 3rd. Basically, you can push to the zerg's 3rd with 5-6 gates and rape him badly (with good ff's of course).
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This build is very nice against hatch first zergs as you said. I have been having bad results, because when they start massing lings, the zealot placement, the wall and the ffs become really important, so i recommend practicing it before you try and use it. If you pull this off you are in a great lead.
Gracias Capoch
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On April 23 2011 10:49 Capoch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 02:37 Tennoji wrote:
What happens if the zerg dennies further scouting when his first lings pop out and he cancels his expantion and goes for an all-in? I'm not very sure but it seems like you'll be in big trouble then. Well, that's one of the big issues of the build. If he cancels his expo and goes all in against yours, it'll be a tough one to hold. That won't happen often though, it would be just like going 3gate expo, and then adding 2 gates and cancelling your expo and going all in into his, these type of tricks are hard to hold by the defensive player. You just gotta try to scout as much as you can and gather whatever intel helps to react fast to what the opponent might throw at you.
If the build you are doing becomes mainstream the zerg will do the cancel more often as they will anticipate the build when they see no forge FE with fast warpgate. The fast warpgate tech is a big give-away of your build so I think it's quite easy to scout: a second nexus, lots of energy on the main nexus and no forge.
And even if you do have a forge, the hatch cancel is viable for a zerg because zergling/baneling can bust a cannonwall. So I don't see why they wouldn't do the cancel once they start understanding what you are doing (when the build is popular)?
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On April 23 2011 16:49 Tennoji wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 10:49 Capoch wrote:On April 23 2011 02:37 Tennoji wrote:
What happens if the zerg dennies further scouting when his first lings pop out and he cancels his expantion and goes for an all-in? I'm not very sure but it seems like you'll be in big trouble then. Well, that's one of the big issues of the build. If he cancels his expo and goes all in against yours, it'll be a tough one to hold. That won't happen often though, it would be just like going 3gate expo, and then adding 2 gates and cancelling your expo and going all in into his, these type of tricks are hard to hold by the defensive player. You just gotta try to scout as much as you can and gather whatever intel helps to react fast to what the opponent might throw at you. If the build you are doing becomes mainstream the zerg will do the cancel more often as they will anticipate the build when they see no forge FE with fast warpgate. The fast warpgate tech is a big give-away of your build so I think it's quite easy to scout: a second nexus, lots of energy on the main nexus and no forge. And even if you do have a forge, the hatch cancel is viable for a zerg because zergling/baneling can bust a cannonwall. So I don't see why they wouldn't do the cancel once they start understanding what you are doing (when the build is popular)?
This build has limitations on some maps and spawns, and it shouldn't be consider as your main build. As I said, it's really situational.You might wanna start with a 3gate FE, but if the spawn and map favour this build I wrote, then doing it might get you an advantage.
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Alright, I love this build. I've played with it a few times now and most of the zergs when seeing the fast nexus went mutas and this build just smashes a 2 base muta opening from Zergs while being more economical than a 3 gate expand! Thanks so much for sharing this Capoch, I love how much more active and mobile you feel with this build compared to forge expands where you're stuck cowering in your base forever.
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@Capoch: Is there anyway you can add your answers to the OP? This is really important information for low-level players (like me!) who are trying to learn the build.
On April 21 2011 04:34 Capoch wrote:
a) Basically after putting down your nexus, you want to start your warp gate research and do a zealot. After that, start the probe production again, and move back 3 probes to the gas. You also want to start walling your natural in with a pylon-gateway-nexus-gateway-pylon or whatever necessary, leaving a small choke that will be blocked by 1 or 2 zealots. The chronoboost here depends on how the opponent reacts when he spots the nexus at your natural. If you want to be really safe, then chronoboost your gate and the warp gate research; if you feel comfortable, then chronoboost your nexus and warp gate research, or mix around a bit.
b) This build is really good against pushes because you’ll be getting the warp gate upgrade fairly soon, and you’ll be pumping units from 3 gates early. It’s not good against pushes in close spawns, that’s why I don’t recommend doing it in that situation, but if the opponent is in other locations, then you can stop some pushes (shown in the replays I’ve posted). An early forge or even a semi early hallucination just to get some important scouting intel and reacting accordingly to what the opponent is doing might be good. The forge is nice for the +1 and just to be safe of burrowed roaches. The beauty of the build lies in taking a nexus so fast without a forge; by doing this, most opponents will desperately react by trying to take the nexus down as fast as possible with whatever small army they have, and you’ll defend it with not much trouble (as shown in the replays).
If the opponent is more passive, you’ll have a better economy than with the 3gate FE. Of course, you will only know this by having good scouting information, and that’s why you’ll always need a probe moving around the map trying to spot some sort of early push.
c) I`ll come back with you later on the transitions topic. I need to do a lot of testing with the different transitions with this build, and see which one is most suitable, but that also of course depends on the style of the opponent. If you are facing an aggressive one that’s been pushing your natural a lot, then I’d suggest following the build with 2-3 more gates, holding on the push and being aggressive yourself, or taking another expo. If the opponent is passive, then a stargate would be a good idea. I still need to play more passive players, because most zergs have reacted aggressively when they see this build, and that’s exactly what I want them to do.
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On April 24 2011 11:18 Vaporak wrote:
I love how much more active and mobile you feel with this build compared to forge expands where you're stuck cowering in your base forever.
This is actually completely true and was the first thing I noticed when practicing the build. Some people have mentioned that you are getting less gas and its a gas heavy matchup, but I disagree. Its gas heavy because of the way people are playing it and coupled with the fact that zealots are generally weak at certain timings.
What I like about this build is how quickly you can get your infrastructure rolling. With Nex first and Forge first you really get pinned down and higher level zergs really take advantage of it well. I will say that this build is not for beginners as you will need superb crisis management and positioning to survive the inevitable early game pressure. Once you do, you'll be miles ahead of even where you would be with a nexus first opener.
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Updated the OP with more info and some anwers to typical questions!
Thanks for feedback guys!
Cheers
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This build has been working wonders for me thus far. I've used it my last 3 PvZ games(I'm high diam). I think one reason it really shines is it has the appearance of a 3-4gate opening so unless the zerg keeps that drone around a long time to scout he won't see the nexus
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On April 24 2011 18:01 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 11:18 Vaporak wrote:
I love how much more active and mobile you feel with this build compared to forge expands where you're stuck cowering in your base forever. This is actually completely true and was the first thing I noticed when practicing the build. Some people have mentioned that you are getting less gas and its a gas heavy matchup, but I disagree. Its gas heavy because of the way people are playing it and coupled with the fact that zealots are generally weak at certain timings. What I like about this build is how quickly you can get your infrastructure rolling. With Nex first and Forge first you really get pinned down and higher level zergs really take advantage of it well. I will say that this build is not for beginners as you will need superb crisis management and positioning to survive the inevitable early game pressure. Once you do, you'll be miles ahead of even where you would be with a nexus first opener.
I'm a somewhat beginner (Silver), but I've been using this build and I lurv it. But I'm a little different from most Silvers in that I like builds that force me to develop skills that are generally associated with the higher levels. I don't always succeed, but when I do, it feels sweet.
With that said, I've found that this build allows me to put significant pressure on my zerg opponents because the timings for almost everything gets pushed forward by 30-60 seconds. Everyone at my level are generally prepared for only two builds: 4 gate or 3 gate expo. It's good to shake up their expectations.
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Thanks guys!
I'll post a couple more of replays soon.
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I feel that the new patch will require some adjustments for this build, although i think this build will still be quite viable if not more viable due to faster gateway buildtime
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On April 26 2011 12:04 Capoch wrote:
Thanks guys!
I'll post a couple more of replays soon.
Thank you! I'm liking the build but obviously replays showing what to do against a variety of zerg responses would be excellent!
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On April 26 2011 12:08 sAfuRos wrote:
I feel that the new patch will require some adjustments for this build, although i think this build will still be quite viable if not more viable due to faster gateway buildtime
I think the build will be even more powerful because you'll hold more easily any aggression and then can counter attack with 6gates once warp research is done!
Will have to test it tho!
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thanks so much for posting this build Capoch, im the one who was bugging you on battle.net to post this I just finally noticed it.
Anyways, I am going to be testing this in customs and lower leagues [im only plat/diamond level  ] I like how refined this build is... but once again, thanks a bunch...
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Have you ever tried incorporating Stargate play into this? I'm trying to find a way to effectively do it and I'm wondering if you have been able to make it work.
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thank you capoch, im just so uncomfortable with cannon rushing and paranoid about 6 pools that i only ever 3 gate FE except on shukuras where i can safely FFE. now i have a safe reaction for hatch first openings vs zerg :D
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Hey Capoch, do you have any more replays or thoughts about this build? I'm using this opening whenever I can, but I just don't know the best responses against what I end up scouting.
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This sounds like a pretty nice build think i'll have to try it out. :D
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Tried out this build a couple of times and i love it. It's a great option for maps where you can't FFE and it gives you a more economic option instead of a 3Gate FE when they aren't close spots.
I've found that a lot of zergs like to mass a lot of lings when they see this and so many times i thought i was gonna die but the sim city helps so much. It's a really nicely refined build and i like the idea of Protoss taking probes off gas for a faster expansion.
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I saw a recent streamed game where the protoss did 1 gate FE. Idra just made a bunch of roaches and lings and destroyed it. I'll try to find the vod. He said it was a "terrible build" though since you cannot apply any pressure and the zerg can just make an unlimited economy.
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On May 14 2011 07:21 darmousseh wrote:
I saw a recent streamed game where the protoss did 1 gate FE. Idra just made a bunch of roaches and lings and destroyed it. I'll try to find the vod. He said it was a "terrible build" though since you cannot apply any pressure and the zerg can just make an unlimited economy.
Well well well maybe this build is designed to catch up in economy while pressure after the economy kicks in.
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Hey Capoch, how is the build working now with the new patch? Still viable?
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On May 11 2011 04:29 Vaporak wrote:
Hey Capoch, do you have any more replays or thoughts about this build? I'm using this opening whenever I can, but I just don't know the best responses against what I end up scouting.
I'm testing this build with the new patch and its still viable. I'll try to post a couple more replays soon!
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Zerg players seem to have adapted. They just send in a shitton of zerglings when you do this. It doesn't work anymore.
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On May 28 2011 14:55 dump wrote:
Zerg players seem to have adapted. They just send in a shitton of zerglings when you do this. It doesn't work anymore.
As long as your sim city and micro is extremely precise, u can hold off any amount of lings.
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Capoch, how has this been working after the patch? Do you have any new replays?
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I havent been using this much as before. I only still recommend it for far spawns and the sim city must be perfect, if not you might eat an early ling rush. 2 zealots and mass sentries with good ff/sim city can stop any ling rush.
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Looking for a reasonably safe build to get good at, considering zergs current go-to build, roach-ling early pressure. You said you weren't doing this nearly as much, I assume it's because of this tricky zerg build...
che, ¿cuál build me recomiendas?
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On May 28 2011 15:07 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 14:55 dump wrote:
Zerg players seem to have adapted. They just send in a shitton of zerglings when you do this. It doesn't work anymore. As long as your sim city and micro is extremely precise, u can hold off any amount of lings.
I think you underestimate "a shitton of zerglings" because it literally is a SHIT TON. I'd like to see you hold off 30 speedlings with two zealots and three sentries... and also you don't have enough buildings yet to form good sim city so your natural is screwed no matter what and if you aren't careful you can lose your main too.. don't underestimate speedlings.
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On June 16 2011 05:10 sc0rp10n wrote:
Looking for a reasonably safe build to get good at, considering zergs current go-to build, roach-ling early pressure. You said you weren't doing this nearly as much, I assume it's because of this tricky zerg build...
che, ¿cuál build me recomiendas?
Well, this build still works if your opponent is not in close spawns still... but if you want a safer build, I recommend doing a 1gate FE at around 24food, when you have 1 zealot and 1sentry out. You can do a pylon down the ramp and put 2 gates there and expo... it will still be hard to hold an early ling/roach pressure, but easy to hold a ling pressure. What I do sometimes, is drop another gate below and a stargate in base, so that would hold the roach/ling pressure pretty good if you block your units well. An early vr can stop the roaches and then do some nice harrassment. If you even want a more safer build, then 3gate then expo is always a good choice, but I dont like it much because I feel it gives the zerg a bit of advantage...
Cheers
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Capoch, thanks for you answer, it is of great help to me. The stargate approach is similar to what MC did at mlg, 1 gate expo,add 2 more gates, followed by a stargate, all the while making only sentries out of the 1st gate. Relatively safe.
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Nice build, ill try it out. im mainly posting so i can easily find this thread.
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On June 16 2011 23:15 Capoch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 05:10 sc0rp10n wrote:
Looking for a reasonably safe build to get good at, considering zergs current go-to build, roach-ling early pressure. You said you weren't doing this nearly as much, I assume it's because of this tricky zerg build...
che, ¿cuál build me recomiendas? Well, this build still works if your opponent is not in close spawns still... but if you want a safer build, I recommend doing a 1gate FE at around 24food, when you have 1 zealot and 1sentry out. You can do a pylon down the ramp and put 2 gates there and expo... it will still be hard to hold an early ling/roach pressure, but easy to hold a ling pressure. What I do sometimes, is drop another gate below and a stargate in base, so that would hold the roach/ling pressure pretty good if you block your units well. An early vr can stop the roaches and then do some nice harrassment. If you even want a more safer build, then 3gate then expo is always a good choice, but I dont like it much because I feel it gives the zerg a bit of advantage... Cheers
Any replays?
Looking for another FE to mix in to a 3gate FE on maps with open naturals and medium rush distance, like Xel Naga.
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EPT
