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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote: Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions Wasnt Metalopolis fixed with latest patch so that close positions are not available anymore? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 20 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote: What is the point of taking probes off gas if you have 16 probes on minerals already? You just oversaturate the minerals with every aditional probe harvesting at around 15% of its normal potential. Wasnt Metalopolis fixed with latest patch so that close positions are not available anymore? Was it? I seriously thought that just applied to the MLG-version. Damn all those map-position-changes seriously start to confuse me lol | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 20 2011 21:17 sleepingdog wrote: Was it? I seriously thought that just applied to the MLG-version. Damn all those map-position-changes seriously start to confuse me lol well I think it also applies for recent GSL (some TvT yesterday both players not scouting close positions) and TSL (MC interview), but I'd like someone to confirm the general idea still. 2Capoch: I'd like to see how do you respond to 2 hatch roach semi-allin where he doesnt take lingspeed just pumps roaches as gas allows and drones with the leftover minerals. | ||
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iamtrickster
United States39 Posts
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 20 2011 21:13 sleepingdog wrote: A good page for member-hosted reps is this one: http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.php If you upload your games you get a link that you can copy, so reps appear like this (notice that this is already the download-link): ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-192357.jpg) Also looking forward to your response  Thanks for explaining how to upload replays. Here are 2 replays of me doing this build: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204393.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204395.jpg) I'll keep on posting more replays of this build soon, and I gotta keep playing too :D I'm gonna answer your questions soon, just gotta find more time  Cheers | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On April 20 2011 21:15 Cheerio wrote: What is the point of taking probes off gas if you have 16 probes on minerals already? You just oversaturate the minerals with every aditional probe harvesting at around 15% of its normal potential. It doesn't oversaturate. The 17th and 18th probe don't provide the same amount of minerals per second as the 1st through 16th, but they do provide some. If you don't need the gas (which I'm assuming you don't) it will get you your buildings faster. [edit] And the most exciting thing about this build in my view is that you can open as if you're going to 3gate sentry expand and then reactively switch to something very like this build if you scout a no-gas expand. Trying to go 15+ Nexus from the outset will cost you games on smaller maps where a reactive switch to this build wouldn't. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
I've been trying one gate expos in response to seeing a 15 hatch on four player maps where I was thinking 3gate expo. The build order is clean, I'm hesitant about pulling out of gas briefly but I'll try it. I guess, what I'd like to know is what is your most common transition from there? Five gate which hits with more units but less sentry energy? Is that even beneficial? | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
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FatfreeTwinky
United States1 Post
With that ordering I have around 26 probes with 4 warp gates up and an expansion at the normal 4 gate timing. From here you can either double crono on probes to go heavy econ or go full crono on the gates and go put some pressure on. I was in the process of refining my build and getting some replays to write my own guide but it seems I was too slow! *Edit for spelling | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On April 21 2011 01:22 kzn wrote: It doesn't oversaturate. The 17th and 18th probe don't provide the same amount of minerals per second as the 1st through 16th, but they do provide some. If you don't need the gas (which I'm assuming you don't) it will get you your buildings faster. [edit] And the most exciting thing about this build in my view is that you can open as if you're going to 3gate sentry expand and then reactively switch to something very like this build if you scout a no-gas expand. Trying to go 15+ Nexus from the outset will cost you games on smaller maps where a reactive switch to this build wouldn't. I still don't see how much of a difference taking those 2 probes off for a few seconds will make. As much as you want to believe that every second matters in high level play, the truth is getting another gateway or zealot 2 seconds faster (do you even get 2 seconds from doing this?) is not going to matter 99% of the time in this situation. We're not talking about a 12 gate vs a 13 gate defending a really early pool or something, where those seconds will matter. And anyway, when do you not need more gas in PvZ lol Also, I can argue that nexus first is a reactive build too. Nexus first is actually still safe on small maps, I can safely 15 nex first vs a 14 pool on close positions metal. Then if I scout zerg going hatch first, I just drop my forge first instead of nexus and cannon rush. EDIT: A few more posts while I was typing up mine. I think I understand now, if you're not comfortable with forge FE builds and started the game going 3 gate FE and scouted a hatch first by the Zerg, then you can do this build to get your second nexus faster. Also, your mid-game plan is macro-oriented and you plan to go robo or stargate. If you plan to do a warpgate timing attack, I still think 3 gate FE is better than this even against a zerg hatch first because of the additional sentry and sentry energy you'll have. | ||
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Volka
Argentina408 Posts
On April 21 2011 01:16 Capoch wrote: Thanks for explaining how to upload replays. Here are 2 replays of me doing this build: I'll keep on posting more replays of this build soon, and I gotta keep playing too :D I'm gonna answer your questions soon, just gotta find more time Cheers Thanks. Add these replays to your OP (your opening post). I'd like to see how it holds against some Roach heavy action. | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
On April 20 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote: While I agree with Anihc, that Nexus first is better on the bigger maps, I think that this BO has good potential on maps where Nexus first is too risky. Namely Metalopolis, once you've ruled out close positions and Shattered Temple. I'm not sure about Xel Naga, the natural is so open, good zergs might find timings to abuse this heavily. What I've always disliked about Nexus first is the heavy, heavy commitment you make BEFORE actually knowing wtf your opponent is doing. This comes pretty much by definition, since you don't make a gate. While this build might be inferior to Nexus first, it's definitely safer since you can - at any time - decide to just not pull probes of gas. However, I agree with this: Capoch, you are an amazing player who made a so-so OP. It seems like currently you are just winging the build and go with what your gut tells you. While this may work for you because you have great gamesense (or more negatively put: because your opponents don't know how to react properly yet), a good guide must account for - if not all - then many of the usual follow-ups. Some questions that you need to answer in my opinion for this [d]iscussion to become really [g]uide-worthy: a) When to build additional production structures if zerg expands. Do you cut probes shortly, like in the classic one gate FE vs terran? b) What to do vs TWO-base all-ins, namely mass roach accompanied by a few lings. Maybe you need to implement an earlier forge on some maps to be safe? c) TRANSITIONS! You really need to go at least into mid-game with your guide. You won't have any scouting intel and don't have enough sentries to make hallucination a good investment. What do you build at this zero-mapcontrol-point in the game based on which tells? Nexus first / forge FE is very often followed up by stargate, 3 gate expand more often followed up by robo. Your build is "in the middle": which route do you normally take, and why? Especially, what to do against these zerg follow-ups: Fast 2 base hydra --> your build is low on sentries, the initial push seems very threatening to me without the sentry-count to block hydras out until colossi are on the field. Or do timings work out? Fast 3rd by zerg --> doesn't seem that big of a problem, nevertheless since you will have very low scouting intel at this point. How to prepare, how to react? d) Map-analysis: You should depict which maps are more suitable for your build and which aren't. Counter-intuitively I think (!) - what Anihc has already mentioned - that due to the possible 15 Nex / forge FE, this build is quite weak on larger maps. Because if you want to pressure, you go 3 gate expo, if you want to macro, you can 15 Nex / forge FE. On Xel Naga however, I think (!) that this build might be too risky. Maybe (!) on Typhon Peaks and Backwhater gulch too? You should notice the level of uncertainty here. Same as Anihc, I appreciate you posting here and don't want to bash on your skills. I just hope you don't "give up" on this thread and find the time and take the effort, to include all the things that unfortunately are still missing. Most answers to your questions: a) Basically after putting down your nexus, you want to start your warp gate research and do a zealot. After that, start the probe production again, and move back 3 probes to the gas. You also want to start walling your natural in with a pylon-gateway-nexus-gateway-pylon or whatever necessary, leaving a small choke that will be blocked by 1 or 2 zealots. The chronoboost here depends on how the opponent reacts when he spots the nexus at your natural. If you want to be really safe, then chronoboost your gate and the warp gate research; if you feel comfortable, then chronoboost your nexus and warp gate research, or mix around a bit. b) This build is really good against pushes because you’ll be getting the warp gate upgrade fairly soon, and you’ll be pumping units from 3 gates early. It’s not good against pushes in close spawns, that’s why I don’t recommend doing it in that situation, but if the opponent is in other locations, then you can stop some pushes (shown in the replays I’ve posted). An early forge or even a semi early hallucination just to get some important scouting intel and reacting accordingly to what the opponent is doing might be good. The forge is nice for the +1 and just to be safe of burrowed roaches. The beauty of the build lies in taking a nexus so fast without a forge; by doing this, most opponents will desperately react by trying to take the nexus down as fast as possible with whatever small army they have, and you’ll defend it with not much trouble (as shown in the replays). If the opponent is more passive, you’ll have a better economy than with the 3gate FE. Of course, you will only know this by having good scouting information, and that’s why you’ll always need a probe moving around the map trying to spot some sort of early push. c) I`ll come back with you later on the transitions topic. I need to do a lot of testing with the different transitions with this build, and see which one is most suitable, but that also of course depends on the style of the opponent. If you are facing an aggressive one that’s been pushing your natural a lot, then I’d suggest following the build with 2-3 more gates, holding on the push and being aggressive yourself, or taking another expo. If the opponent is passive, then a stargate would be a good idea. I still need to play more passive players, because most zergs have reacted aggressively when they see this build, and that’s exactly what I want them to do. d) Map-analysis: this build doesn’t work in close spawns, so please avoid it. Going 3gate FE is much safer here. It also doesn’t work against 1 base zerg players. Knowing this, let’s talk about the suitable maps for it: -Scrap Station: this is a very zerg map. It’s really tough to defend early pushes from zerg because the ramp is big, so I’d suggest doing a more standard build here. -Xel’Naga Caverns: I’d only do this build if I make the mistake in allowing the zerg player to do hatchery before pool first. In other case, I’d suggest doing a 3gate FE. -Blackwater Gulch: This build is really powerful in this map. The choke points are so small, that it works out perfectly. You can pretty much hold on any type of 2base aggression from the zerg, no matter the spawn location. Again, if you don’t see the zerg expanding, delay your nexus a bit. It’s dangerous expanding faster than zerg because you might eat an early 1base push from him. -Delta Quadrant: this map is just ugly… it’s so open that this build is impossible here. Avoid it. -Metalopolis: Another good map for this build. I wouldn’t suggest doing it the zerg is in close location. Otherwise, it’s a good build for this map (see replay attached in thread). -Shakuras Plateau: this map is awesome, but for Forge FE haha. If you don’t like opening with forge, then go ahead and use this build. -Slag Pits: Forget doing this on close spots, you’ll get ripped apart. It’s even risky to do this on other spawns because the natural is wide open, so it’s really difficult to create a choke with buildings. I’d suggest 3gate FE opening in this map, to be safer. -Tal’Darim Altar LE: doing FE Forge opening is a bit risky here, because you could easily get 6pooled and die. I’d suggest doing this build here no matter what the spawn is, just setting a choke first in your main to avoid cheeses, and then going for the nexus and setting another choke in your natural with pylon-gateways. -The Shattered Temple: great map for this build, try avoiding it if zerg is in close spawn. -Typhon Peaks: another good map for this build, no matter what the spawns are. Hope this helps out a bit, glad to answer these questions. I'll keep testing the build and post any discoveries or good transitions that might complement the build! Cheers | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Spoonwoman
1 Post
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ShinyGerbil
Canada519 Posts
On April 21 2011 01:52 Anihc wrote: EDIT: A few more posts while I was typing up mine. I think I understand now, if you're not comfortable with forge FE builds and started the game going 3 gate FE and scouted a hatch first by the Zerg, then you can do this build to get your second nexus faster. Also, your mid-game plan is macro-oriented and you plan to go robo or stargate. If you plan to do a warpgate timing attack, I still think 3 gate FE is better than this even against a zerg hatch first because of the additional sentry and sentry energy you'll have. It does seem like any conventional 5- or 6- warpgate allin would be better off a 3gate expand, because of the build up sentry energy. However this build will allow more minerals (and even gas if you really wanted to shoot for the fast 4 gasses) to be mined in the long run, so any composition that isn't as sentry reliant (VR Colossus, 2 stargates, idunno you're the protoss expert lol) would probably benefit. Similarly, although you argue nexus first trumps all of these situations, and it is a very strong opening, there are reasons why all protoss haven't been adopting the nexus first play. Some of the associated vulnerabilities are early roaches, and/or a proxy hatchery. This build seems more comfortable vs both of those forms of aggression by zerg, mostly due to the fast core and option to immediately start stalker production once the nexus starts. The most interesting thing I see with this build is how protoss copes without relying on a sentry heavy midgame; something we're all more than familiar with. dt's, blink stalkers, or hyper low gateway VR/colo all seem like potential options. It definitely seems like a cool timing that I can see assisting protosses who are still looking for a comfortable style of pvz, thanks for the idea! | ||
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Capoch
Argentina179 Posts
Don't let the thread die, I put a lot of though into it! | ||
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Drolla
United Kingdom389 Posts
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Fiendish
United States210 Posts
he also usually transitions into 5 gate like capoch, and it usually wins him the game i like this build, i've been working on it and i recommend everyone try putting your 2nd pylon on the low ground like capoch does in the second replay so you can get that 2nd gate up faster and time it with warp gate finishing | ||
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Teodice
Sweden641 Posts
On April 21 2011 16:18 Drolla wrote: Is there any way you think this would work in a PvT, or is it just too risky? As said above, this is very common in PvT. I use this strat like every game when the spawns are not close. I usually get 1 sentry, 1 stalker and 1 zealot to hold of a early attack. Have not played in a while thou so can´t share any updated replays but when I get active again i´ll try posting some if you want. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 21 2011 04:34 Capoch wrote: c) I`ll come back with you later on the transitions topic. I need to do a lot of testing with the different transitions with this build, and see which one is most suitable, but that also of course depends on the style of the opponent. If you are facing an aggressive one that’s been pushing your natural a lot, then I’d suggest following the build with 2-3 more gates, holding on the push and being aggressive yourself, or taking another expo. If the opponent is passive, then a stargate would be a good idea. I still need to play more passive players, because most zergs have reacted aggressively when they see this build, and that’s exactly what I want them to do. Thanks for your long answer. I totally get where you're coming from, when I started one gate expanding PvT every terran would just all-in me game after game after game so that it was actually impossible to figure out how to proceed in midgame. The build I would be most interested in is a fast ling/hydra creep-highway push. Normally I deal with hydras by just going for colossi hard and use every last forcefield I've got for forcefielding the hydras out until the first colossus is available. Nevertheless your build is lower on sentries and potentially a bit slower on robotics tech. I'm not saying it can't be done, I simply would be most interested how playing against this push works out for you. d) Map-analysis: Thanks for that too, it concurs with most of which I've guessed. The only surprising thing is, that the build is good on Backwater Gulch, I've always been too scared due to the dual entrances to the nat...but I'll definitely give it a try. What I'd like to know is, if you've ever run into problems with this build on Typhon peaks. Walling off there is "almost" as difficult as on slag pits (not taking insane rush distance on close pos into account obviously). I figured that on Typhon peaks the threat of two base ling/roach pushes is quite significant? Or does the mapsize provide you with enough time to get a sufficient gateway(-unit-)count? | ||
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