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Sorry I didn't read through all 17 pages but I didn't find the answer forthcoming on this or the first page. Has anyone tried mixing in a few archons? Archons seem a decent counter to infestors, the shield can regen as infestors run out of energy and the AE attack is decent against ling surrounds. I don't believe the archon is armored... This is more of a late game build around when the deathball might roll out on like 3 base of course.
Probably transition off something like 5 gate robo where citadel was dropped for ups and DT shrine mayb for base deny / harass until force moves out. Might also be possible of some kind of 6 gate pressure, double forge, with templar for late game crowd control... I realize this is somewhat gas intensive but if you build obs/use halluc phoenix and see nothing but lings/infestors maybe??? Just wondering if anyone tinkered with archond as a unit counter to infestor/ling/baneling. I'm not advocating MASS archon, just as many as resources can reasonably allow. Dts have a decent mineral to gas ratio so it might help you not float tons of minerals (mass z's prob won't help too much). I guess might be useful off HTs after FB/storms are dropped but I am assuming fungal -> deny those abilities so the intent is to make the archons before the battle begins... It might not work at all but I was wondering if anyone tried it.
Edit: I realize that this thread is about "midgame" pressure, but there is also mention of a 200/200 deathball more than once and this is more or less the timing I am referring to
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On April 25 2011 15:44 kamui8899 wrote:
Sorry I didn't read through all 17 pages but I didn't find the answer forthcoming on this or the first page. Has anyone tried mixing in a few archons? Archons seem a decent counter to infestors, the shield can regen as infestors run out of energy and the AE attack is decent against ling surrounds. I don't believe the archon is armored... This is more of a late game build around when the deathball might roll out on like 3 base of course.
Probably transition off something like 5 gate robo where citadel was dropped for ups and DT shrine mayb for base deny / harass until force moves out. Might also be possible of some kind of 6 gate pressure, double forge, with templar for late game crowd control... I realize this is somewhat gas intensive but if you build obs/use halluc phoenix and see nothing but lings/infestors maybe??? Just wondering if anyone tinkered with archond as a unit counter to infestor/ling/baneling. I'm not advocating MASS archon, just as many as resources can reasonably allow. Dts have a decent mineral to gas ratio so it might help you not float tons of minerals (mass z's prob won't help too much). I guess might be useful off HTs after FB/storms are dropped but I am assuming fungal -> deny those abilities so the intent is to make the archons before the battle begins... It might not work at all but I was wondering if anyone tried it.
Edit: I realize that this thread is about "midgame" pressure, but there is also mention of a 200/200 deathball more than once and this is more or less the timing I am referring to
Archons should be fairly good, Fungal growth doesn't hurt them too much and when NP'd they won't deal bonus damage as Protoss isn't biological. However, it should be a late game transition that comes from HT's running out of energy after feed backing.
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Im having tons of trouble countering mass infestors as terran or protoss (I play both). You have to kill them before the count gets to high, but infestors counter just about every terran unit (whether its through fungal or neural parasite) and the protoss ball while less susceptable to the fungal spam, will still take an almost ridiculous amount of damage while advancing before even engaging the zerg units.
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United States915 Posts
I actually find its less my infestors but more the banelings that are the most effective. Baneling drops are so damn good because there's no running, and the dmage they do with a fungal is unbelievable.
Late game crackling drops are insane, as they're a very easy way to do multiprong attacks.
I don't lose to turtling toss much at all anymore, its the 5/6 gate that gets me. I'm trying to figure out a roach transition right now that keeps me safe without needing spines.
http://www.mediafire.com/?gw4ta4hsx5257
Anyway, here's a small replay pack of some of my ling/bling games. The xel naga replays I mostly lose/struggle; I told my friend to be really aggressive with fakes and stuff, and I find I struggle against that, especially on xel naga.
But I hope you can take some time to look at a few of these and see how I play it out, what I can improve on. I especially need help refining the early game build. I dislike hatch first, and I don't like ice fishing.
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Tried this build twice, and got rofl stomped by early pressure/6 gate. Got destroyed by a gold league player who had a couple sentries and went early colossus all in pretty much, other time was 6 gate with 5 sentries... Killed maybe 2 stalkers. It seems to be good mid game, but then again I dont know how to transition out of it into late game to avoid HT.
Any advice on this? I've been looking for something new and I want to try and make it work, but dealing with early pressure just seems so damn hard even when you get the first couple of infestors out
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not to sway the thread here, but infestors also dominate ZvT mid game/late game too.
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Ling infestor is very strong against standard protoss deathball but once toss start to incorporate archons into their army it will become much less powerfull.
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Good post. Been looking to change my ZvP build for a while now and I'll give it a try. I'll still try to get some baneling drops in after infestors for the extra dps
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Yerp... Infestors are pretty good ZvP. At 800+ Master level I now almost never use Hydras since Infestors have much higher potential DPS, the ability to split/impede/NP armies, and the utility of revealing cloaked units, all at a comparatively lower mineral cost.
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United States915 Posts
Honestly I'm not a fan of infestors of ZvT. It's just too fragile, and sometimes you just end up with like 8 infestors and nothing to back them up. I much prefer roach ling bling muta, as mutas also keep medivac numbers way lower which helps with the eventual brood lord transition since then they'll have to pick between vikings/medivacs. I find when I skimp out on mutas the ball of medivacs seems to get bigger and bigger.
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Everyone today is doing this on the ladder >.< ! It is working well against me  I've found the most success going chargelot / high templar. A normal collosus push after 3 gate expand seems to be fine as long as you get blink and snipe the infestors.
Going air off of a forge FE opening also works pretty well as long as you get there before infestors come out.
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On May 04 2011 05:14 dave333 wrote:
Honestly I'm not a fan of infestors of ZvT. It's just too fragile, and sometimes you just end up with like 8 infestors and nothing to back them up. I much prefer roach ling bling muta, as mutas also keep medivac numbers way lower which helps with the eventual brood lord transition since then they'll have to pick between vikings/medivacs. I find when I skimp out on mutas the ball of medivacs seems to get bigger and bigger.
with infestor/ling/bling you have actually 2 units to deal with marines and lings for tanks - if you cant downsize the number of marines significantly your mutas are useless
another pretty nice feature of infestors is spawning infested terrans into marines or next to tanks to kill them by friendly fire
it also enables an easier transition to hive as you wont invest as much gas as you would do on mutas
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As a protoss in mid-masters, I find that this build really destroys a standard colossus stalker deathball. Usually I go double robo immortal chargelot HT which seems to work quite well. Just have to be very careful to mix in some archons so a air switch will not straight up kill you. DT's are good just to force a few overseers to cut into infestor gas. I can usually snipe about half the infestors with feedback and immortals are quite safe against lings/blings with enough storms. NP'd immortals are not actually that good because you have so many that immortals shooting immortals is pretty useless. Also with the amount of immortals you have left, a roach reinforcement is pretty null and void, quick reinforcements are limited to lings for the most part which can be dealt with by spent HT turning into archons.
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The reason that this build works is because it's so supply sufficient in proportion to the dps that's being doled out. If you go roach hydra corruptor with a healthy econ (say 3 base 75 drones) then you're limited to about 62 offensive units on the field as roach hydra and corruptor are all 2 supply. Now if you go bling infestor or just plain ling infestor you can have 200 lings and/or banelings and still have 25 pop to put out infestors with. If you neural parasite the aoe dealers and have good upgrades on your ground army then the deathball simply can't kill fast enough.
It's just really logical in a theory crafting sense and I'm happy to see that it generally works in the actual game as well. Templar are obviously the counter to this as storm is going to melt lings and feedback really takes out infestors (getting fast ultras negates that though). I'm waiting for the high level game where the zerg is neural parasiting templar and feedbacking other templar or storming the protoss army. That would be amazing to see.
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Ok so from what I take from this, you pretty much hold early game pressure with spines, queens and lings. Then once your infestors come out you can push out? Anyone tried mixing this in with roaches and baneling drops? I was thinking of using ~20 roaches with lings and infestors while getting some early gas. Then getting baneling drops. I've tried this in a few games and it seems to work well, I jsut need to get the mechanics of it down
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On May 08 2011 07:52 Chinesewonder wrote:
Ok so from what I take from this, you pretty much hold early game pressure with spines, queens and lings. Then once your infestors come out you can push out? Anyone tried mixing this in with roaches and baneling drops? I was thinking of using ~20 roaches with lings and infestors while getting some early gas. Then getting baneling drops. I've tried this in a few games and it seems to work well, I jsut need to get the mechanics of it down
i have been using spanishiwa's opening into ling infestor
u dont really need to push out immediately. just take a 3rd once u reach max saturation on 2 bases and then make sure hes not taking his as well. if protoss takes a fast third u can do damage. other wise just breaking his push and stalling till hive to get ultras or broods to end it is good imo.
also if u kill off early void ray harrass or dts or shyt without losing much u can double expand
infestors kill voids and dts
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A tip to protoss players facing this out there:
Whilst unit compositions vs infestor play are debatable (when is the last time anyone saw a corruptor anyway lol), the main choices being colossi or immortal+templar
When you first scout them with your phoenix, and you do NOT see a roach warren (or a hydra den) they are going infestor
Depending on what you see, you have two options here
1. is to 6 gate. This is an extremely strong reaction if you hit them before they get infestors, and is particularly good if they are droning too hard, skipping on spines, trying to take a greedy third etc.
2. chronoboost your probes like crazy and tech up - usually you can't do this since you have to produce stuff out of your 3 gates to survive roach/ling all ins (and more rarely, hydra busts) - however you are in no danger of this when he goes infestor first (before roaches) - allowing you to get your colossi/templar much faster which you need to fight the infestors
The last tip i can give is that you should really, really get some templar as you approach 200/200. Even without the research, i honestly believe you need feedback to win vs infestor
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if you want to edit the OP to be more specific, if you start building infestors after 30 seconds of the energy upgrade, they'll finish with the upgrade.
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immortal/ht tech just dominates this so badly its not funny, Archons and storm and feedback are just dominant. Infestors are good support but no more then around 5 imo.
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Actually it seems like Blizz wanted to buff zerg somehow to be more viable Vs P. But their mind was not enough to take a deeper look at the Zerg race, to figure out what can be changed better. They just took the already most controversial ability in the game (FG) and just buffed it more.
Looks like it was done just to calm down all the zerg's whinings in the community and that's it.
Why Spanishuwa's build is so strong? Because of early Zerg high defense ability with the mass queen transfusion support, and further switch to Infestors/lings that smashes everything(bio, mech), that's it.
Really blizz, if you don't know what would be best to implement then give community an ability to make balance related changes. Or at lest listen to it.
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EPT
