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On April 22 2011 06:33 Neo.NEt wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this thread is how it says "Basics on how to inject properly" and has a video to the backspace inject method like that is the way you are supposed to inject (I'm at work so the links are messed up and it makes the whole page look weird so you could have 2 different videos there and I wouldn't know). As far as I know 99% of pros don't use the backspace method and I used it for months and am finally switching away from it b/c it's cost me so many games.....
because it cost you games ?
please explain how on earth it cost you games.... I am really curious.
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On April 22 2011 06:57 nymeria wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 06:33 Neo.NEt wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this thread is how it says "Basics on how to inject properly" and has a video to the backspace inject method like that is the way you are supposed to inject (I'm at work so the links are messed up and it makes the whole page look weird so you could have 2 different videos there and I wouldn't know). As far as I know 99% of pros don't use the backspace method and I used it for months and am finally switching away from it b/c it's cost me so many games..... Please backup your claim of 99% of pros don't use the backspace method. If you mean 99% of featured live user zerg streamers, I might agree with that. Being a featured streamer does not mean your mechanics are the right mechanics. Think about how mechanics in BroodWar from 1998-2002 have evolved into today's standards. It's a bit of a stretch, but saying the backspace (pros remap the "Base Camera" to more convenient hotkeys such as ` and Q) method cost you so many games is akin to someone saying grouping up mutalisks with an overlord to force them to stack better cost them so many games because their overlords kept flying into Terran units/turrets. Show nested quote +[ On 2010-05-17 12:54:16  Zelniq wrote:[Base Camera method] is ridiculously fast multiple spawn larvaes, all zergs should immediately start doing this, can be off microing a battle and spend less than 1 second to inject 5 hatches. source: [Spawn Larvae] Right Side Shift + Backspace MethodShow nested quote +On April 15 2011 09:25 Day[9] wrote:v shift backspace! everyone's already said it but, because i know about it, i want to participate and seem knowledgeable  source: How does Vibe inject so fast ??Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:57 Sv1 wrote:
conclude is that the [injects] missed from your MIWs (Missed Injection Windows) are esentially units that will not enter the game source: [D] Larva Injection Analysis
So you linked to Zelniq talking about how good this inject method is 11 months ago, day 9 saying it's cool, and 1 pro player who uses it. How exactly does that prove it's the right way? Vibe is actually the only pro I've ever heard of that does this and every single other pro I've seen play (which is enough to say 95% of pros don't use the base camera method) either does the hotkey each individual queen method or they hotkey individual hatcheries and just click on the queens. If you actually have a queen at every single hatchery then yeah this is great, but if you don't and you aren't using the fancy new follow camera thing then the base camera thing is far more trouble than it's worth.
And even watching 5 pros streaming and seeing that none of them use the base camera method is still more evidence than you showed...
And your overlord example is completely different to what I'm talking about. It's almost like you've either never used the base camera method or you know something that I don't.
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On April 23 2011 01:37 Juffalo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 06:33 Neo.NEt wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this thread is how it says "Basics on how to inject properly" and has a video to the backspace inject method like that is the way you are supposed to inject (I'm at work so the links are messed up and it makes the whole page look weird so you could have 2 different videos there and I wouldn't know). As far as I know 99% of pros don't use the backspace method and I used it for months and am finally switching away from it b/c it's cost me so many games..... because it cost you games ? please explain how on earth it cost you games.... I am really curious.
If you've ever watched Mr. Bitter's vods on Blip.tv you've probably seen this happen to him a million times. Imagine you are on Shakuras and you have pretty much all of the bases on your side of the map, let's go with 5 and you have a queen at each hatchery. Right now, the base camera method is great. Now let's say your 6th hatch just finishes and you don't have a queen there (maybe you're maxed, or maybe it's just not done yet). If you try to do the base camera method, one of your queens is going to try to inject that hatchery so she's going to slowly walk all the way over there. The same thing will happen with macro hatches when the closest queen runs out of energy.
If I was home right now I'd post a replay of me losing with 3k minerals and no larva and if you watched the replay it's pretty obvious I would have won pretty easily if my queens weren't running wild around the map. I have plenty of other games like this as well, including a game at MLG that I think would have gone a lot better if I injected like a normal person (which I started doing after that game).
There's some way that you can use the follow camera button and this problem wouldn't happen but the camera does some weird wobble thing and I could never really get into it... some guy named Chef made a thread about it on here if you want to check it out.
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On April 23 2011 02:06 Neo.NEt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 06:57 nymeria wrote:On April 22 2011 06:33 Neo.NEt wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this thread is how it says "Basics on how to inject properly" and has a video to the backspace inject method like that is the way you are supposed to inject (I'm at work so the links are messed up and it makes the whole page look weird so you could have 2 different videos there and I wouldn't know). As far as I know 99% of pros don't use the backspace method and I used it for months and am finally switching away from it b/c it's cost me so many games..... Please backup your claim of 99% of pros don't use the backspace method. If you mean 99% of featured live user zerg streamers, I might agree with that. Being a featured streamer does not mean your mechanics are the right mechanics. Think about how mechanics in BroodWar from 1998-2002 have evolved into today's standards. It's a bit of a stretch, but saying the backspace (pros remap the "Base Camera" to more convenient hotkeys such as ` and Q) method cost you so many games is akin to someone saying grouping up mutalisks with an overlord to force them to stack better cost them so many games because their overlords kept flying into Terran units/turrets. [ On 2010-05-17 12:54:16 Zelniq wrote:[Base Camera method] is ridiculously fast multiple spawn larvaes, all zergs should immediately start doing this, can be off microing a battle and spend less than 1 second to inject 5 hatches. source: [Spawn Larvae] Right Side Shift + Backspace MethodOn April 15 2011 09:25 Day[9] wrote:v shift backspace! everyone's already said it but, because i know about it, i want to participate and seem knowledgeable source: How does Vibe inject so fast ??On February 24 2011 02:57 Sv1 wrote:
conclude is that the [injects] missed from your MIWs (Missed Injection Windows) are esentially units that will not enter the game source: [D] Larva Injection Analysis So you linked to Zelniq talking about how good this inject method is 11 months ago, day 9 saying it's cool, and 1 pro player who uses it. How exactly does that prove it's the right way? Vibe is actually the only pro I've ever heard of that does this and every single other pro I've seen play (which is enough to say 95% of pros don't use the base camera method) either does the hotkey each individual queen method or they hotkey individual hatcheries and just click on the queens. If you actually have a queen at every single hatchery then yeah this is great, but if you don't and you aren't using the fancy new follow camera thing then the base camera thing is far more trouble than it's worth. And even watching 5 pros streaming and seeing that none of them use the base camera method is still more evidence than you showed...
I don't know about convenience, but it's optimal. It will get you the fastest injects and, since they all happen within a second, you're minimizing wasted time between subsequent injects.
I don't know why pro's don't use it as much but if it's done properly, it's clearly superior.
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On April 23 2011 02:12 Neo.NEt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 01:37 Juffalo wrote:On April 22 2011 06:33 Neo.NEt wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this thread is how it says "Basics on how to inject properly" and has a video to the backspace inject method like that is the way you are supposed to inject (I'm at work so the links are messed up and it makes the whole page look weird so you could have 2 different videos there and I wouldn't know). As far as I know 99% of pros don't use the backspace method and I used it for months and am finally switching away from it b/c it's cost me so many games..... because it cost you games ? please explain how on earth it cost you games.... I am really curious. If you've ever watched Mr. Bitter's vods on Blip.tv you've probably seen this happen to him a million times. Imagine you are on Shakuras and you have pretty much all of the bases on your side of the map, let's go with 5 and you have a queen at each hatchery. Right now, the base camera method is great. Now let's say your 6th hatch just finishes and you don't have a queen there (maybe you're maxed, or maybe it's just not done yet). If you try to do the base camera method, one of your queens is going to try to inject that hatchery so she's going to slowly walk all the way over there. The same thing will happen with macro hatches when the closest queen runs out of energy. If I was home right now I'd post a replay of me losing with 3k minerals and no larva and if you watched the replay it's pretty obvious I would have won pretty easily if my queens weren't running wild around the map. I have plenty of other games like this as well, including a game at MLG that I think would have gone a lot better if I injected like a normal person (which I started doing after that game). There's some way that you can use the follow camera button and this problem wouldn't happen but the camera does some weird wobble thing and I could never really get into it... some guy named Chef made a thread about it on here if you want to check it out.
A player making mistake is different from something being fundamentally bad.
Nony famously forgot to research storm in TSL 2 (I'm pretty sure it was the 2nd one).
That doesn't make storm drops bad.
If queens bug out because you're using backspace injects, its not because backspace injects are bad. It's because you're not good enough at managing them.
It is hands down the fastest way to inject, and, especially late game, is the simplest way to manage injects while still spending the majority of your focus on your army.
edit:
And for clarification, the reason that most famous Zergs hotkey queens or hatcheries individually isn't because its "best". Its because its been hard-wired into their fingertips after 11-12 years of playing Broodwar.
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On April 23 2011 02:12 Neo.NEt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 01:37 Juffalo wrote:On April 22 2011 06:33 Neo.NEt wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this thread is how it says "Basics on how to inject properly" and has a video to the backspace inject method like that is the way you are supposed to inject (I'm at work so the links are messed up and it makes the whole page look weird so you could have 2 different videos there and I wouldn't know). As far as I know 99% of pros don't use the backspace method and I used it for months and am finally switching away from it b/c it's cost me so many games..... because it cost you games ? please explain how on earth it cost you games.... I am really curious. There's some way that you can use the follow camera button and this problem wouldn't happen but the camera does some weird wobble thing and I could never really get into it... some guy named Chef made a thread about it on here if you want to check it out.
clarification here, this technique no longer works, in patch 1.3 a change was made: the "follow selected unit" toggle no longer overrides the base camera hotkey.
You can read more info in the last couple of pages on Chef's thread here (he also updated the OP saying the technique no longer works)
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Well great strategy. I used it twice today, won twice. Thank you !
I'm just a mid/high-diamond. But since you asked for replays from every level, here you go :
First on Shakuras
Second on Xel'Naga
What happened : Protoss went for poor deathballs (i admit) and got crushed badly.
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On April 23 2011 02:47 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 02:12 Neo.NEt wrote:On April 23 2011 01:37 Juffalo wrote:On April 22 2011 06:33 Neo.NEt wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this thread is how it says "Basics on how to inject properly" and has a video to the backspace inject method like that is the way you are supposed to inject (I'm at work so the links are messed up and it makes the whole page look weird so you could have 2 different videos there and I wouldn't know). As far as I know 99% of pros don't use the backspace method and I used it for months and am finally switching away from it b/c it's cost me so many games..... because it cost you games ? please explain how on earth it cost you games.... I am really curious. If you've ever watched Mr. Bitter's vods on Blip.tv you've probably seen this happen to him a million times. Imagine you are on Shakuras and you have pretty much all of the bases on your side of the map, let's go with 5 and you have a queen at each hatchery. Right now, the base camera method is great. Now let's say your 6th hatch just finishes and you don't have a queen there (maybe you're maxed, or maybe it's just not done yet). If you try to do the base camera method, one of your queens is going to try to inject that hatchery so she's going to slowly walk all the way over there. The same thing will happen with macro hatches when the closest queen runs out of energy. If I was home right now I'd post a replay of me losing with 3k minerals and no larva and if you watched the replay it's pretty obvious I would have won pretty easily if my queens weren't running wild around the map. I have plenty of other games like this as well, including a game at MLG that I think would have gone a lot better if I injected like a normal person (which I started doing after that game). There's some way that you can use the follow camera button and this problem wouldn't happen but the camera does some weird wobble thing and I could never really get into it... some guy named Chef made a thread about it on here if you want to check it out. A player making mistake is different from something being fundamentally bad. Nony famously forgot to research storm in TSL 2 (I'm pretty sure it was the 2nd one). That doesn't make storm drops bad. If queens bug out because you're using backspace injects, its not because backspace injects are bad. It's because you're not good enough at managing them. It is hands down the fastest way to inject, and, especially late game, is the simplest way to manage injects while still spending the majority of your focus on your army. edit: And for clarification, the reason that most famous Zergs hotkey queens or hatcheries individually isn't because its "best". Its because its been hard-wired into their fingertips after 11-12 years of playing Broodwar.
I'm not sure I would call this the same situation as forgetting to research storm. I think you know how easy it is to forget to hit "s" after you spawn larva every time to stop your queens. I do the same thing all the time. And sometimes hitting s doesn't really even solve the problem b/c one of your queens might have been running to a different hatchery and the hatchery she was supposed to inject never even got done.
If people were perfect then yeah this is the best way but I'm sure you've lost games (and everyone else has as well) because you had queens running everywhere (I know incontrol likes to yell at you about it on your blip.tv vods) and nothing was getting injected. I think this method is similar to infestors/HT's in the sense that if you mess up once it could really cost you. When you get 8 ht's and you have them bunched up and they get emped or you just amove your whole army and they run to the front and get owned without doing anything well... you're in trouble. If you go colossi instead that will never happen. If you are perfect that HT thing won't happen to you but from what I've seen... nobody is perfect.
As far as the BW reference goes sure pros are used to using every hotkey but it's not like their brain was programmed to 55 66 77 88 99 00 for queens because they had been doing it for brood war for 10 years or anything.
Love your stream by the way, but I'm sad you're going to teach those dirty protosses how to play. They're hard enough to beat as it is as they don't even know what they're doing!!!!
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I have to ask something about backsapce method.
I used it for awhile and ran towards the 'queens running everywhere in map' problem because I have basically 3 queens for injectin (or 4 if I know i need those larva) and one for creep spread.
Now I usually have then about 5 hatches atleast in lategame so how do I inject with backspace? I binded it to space so its just like spamming space and shift-v. However backspacing doesn't go to the hatches that have queen, it goes to every hatch and not always in direct order (queenless, queen, queen, queenless etc).
How you fix it?
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I feel like I'm largely alone in my "hotkey each individual hatchery and don't hotkey queens". Hmm, I would like to switch, but I'm too comfortable with my method.
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k, clearly the BEST strategy for larva injection is using indivdual hotkeys for each queen, then when you have GOOD/GREAT creepspread, and many bases/hatches (aka late game), you hotkey all your queens to one hotkey, and have your base camera bound to side mouse button, or scroll wheel, or w/e you want, back mouse button is sick on the xai though. and you use the backspace method in the lategame. early game it gets tough to use the backspace method and it's actually quite bad especially when you are getting your 3rd up and have the random wandering queen
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On April 23 2011 00:30 krell wrote:
I'm happy Z is finally playable, but it relies too heavily on the one unit.
like the marine for T? or collsi for P? :/
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On Topic
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/167547-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau
what did I do wrong? I made fuckton of infestors but the problem is still collosus melt the lings too fast and the voidrays only dies to 5 fungals iirc and so all my infestors die while all the voidrays survive with red HP and shields.
please take a look at the replay.
Should I just made corruptors? .__.
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Ughh as a Protoss player, it's really hard to deal with the continous stream of speedlings, and eventual cracklings. Instant damage to half your army also doesn't help much.
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Only way to beat infestor lings as toss is to hit them early before they have enough mana to use several fungals. (In my case)
Btw what's up with the Korean translation in OP? Obviously you used the English -> Korean translator but why?
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On April 23 2011 14:16 evanthebouncy wrote: On Topic http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/167547-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateauwhat did I do wrong? I made fuckton of infestors but the problem is still collosus melt the lings too fast and the voidrays only dies to 5 fungals iirc and so all my infestors die while all the voidrays survive with red HP and shields. please take a look at the replay. Should I just made corruptors? .__.
Tough loss. At first glance, I feel like you could have won had you tweaked a few things. Versus 3 Stargates, I think making Ultralisks might not be the best option (not trying to be funny).
17:47/35:44
Player: Zerg Protoss
Minerals 1485 3070 2x as much banked
Gas 311 536
Food 184/200 199/200
Army Supply 92 118 26 Supply Difference
Worker Supply 91 81
Income (min) 2060 2340
Income (gas) 704 832
Harvesters 77 81
Resources Lost 475 1000
Army (min) 3975 7700 3725 more mineral cost
Army (gas) 2900 3900 1000 more gas cost
Zerg Production: Hatchery, Hive, 26 Zerglings, 3 Infestors, Centrifugal Hooks, Ventral Sacs,
Pneumatized Carapace, Melee Attack 2
Protoss Production: Nexus, Air Armor 1
Zerg Units: 75 Zerglings, 18 Infestors, (3/7 Queens nearby 7 Spines)
Protoss Units: 7 Zealots, 16 Stalkers, 14 Void Rays, 5 Colossi
Zerg Upgrades: Metabolic Boost, Pathogen Glands, Neural Parasite, Melee +2, Carapace +1
Protoss Upgrades: Blink, Extended Thermal Lance, Ground +1, Air +1
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/f0X1R.jpg)
Looks tough, and I think you micro'd pretty well considering the odds. The main threat is the 14 Void Rays. I think instead of engaging by the rocks, it would have been better to stay behind your spines. If he uses the Void Rays to attack the spines, use fungal/queens. If he uses the Colossi to outrange the spines, NP them. I'm not sure what to do if he charges in with everything. Ideally, you'd want to fungal(range: 9) the void rays (range: 6), NP the colossi, and slow the zealots and stalkers from killing your infestors with your zerglings, spines, queens, more fungals, and infested terrans. I'm not sure how hard this would have been to pull-off in that game.
A lot of people underestimate how strong Infested Terrans (range: 9) are. With 18-21 Infestors, it might be too hard to maximize their potential in battle...maybe it's good to preemptively cast Infested Terrans in that situation. Also, since you made a Baneling Nest (I advocate skipping Banelings until you are banking large amounts of gas), it might have been useful to turn 12 of your Zerglings into Banelings. Even though you did not have Centrifugal Hooks yet (17 minutes in!), you were defending on Creep, and he had 0 sentries. Fungal would prevent his Zealots and Stalkers from escaping. 21 Infestors, 12 Banelings, 89 Zerglings, and 3 Queens defending at your 7 spines on Creep would have probably been able to kill that army.
Would cancelling some/all of your upgrades to use that gas for Banelings have worked? I wonder.
Maybe someone with a better understanding of the game than I could help you here.
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On April 23 2011 18:01 Washow wrote:
Only way to beat infestor lings as toss is to hit them early before they have enough mana to use several fungals. (In my case)
Btw what's up with the Korean translation in OP? Obviously you used the English -> Korean translator but why?
A 3gate into 6gate timing push is too late to beat an infestor zergling player to fungal growth. So no, going to try and beat them soon enough is like walking right into the zergs hands.
The very best way to deal with an infestor ling player is, as previously stated, High templars while getting a third. Or teching to voidrays and making sure his third never gets up.
Oh, and I have to agree on the korean, though it might look cool, I can't even make sense out of it grammatically. And I read KR BNET forums occasionally to brush up on it.
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On April 23 2011 18:08 nymeria wrote:Tough loss. At first glance, I feel like you could have won had you tweaked a few things. Versus 3 Stargates, I think making Ultralisks might not be the best option (not trying to be funny). 17:47/35:44Player: Zerg Protoss Minerals 1485 3070 2x as much bankedGas 311 536 Food 184/200 199/200 Army Supply 92 118 26 Supply DifferenceWorker Supply 91 81 Income (min) 2060 2340 Income (gas) 704 832 Harvesters 77 81 Resources Lost 475 1000 Army (min) 3975 7700 3725 more mineral cost
Army (gas) 2900 3900 1000 more gas costZerg Production: Hatchery, Hive, 26 Zerglings, 3 Infestors, Centrifugal Hooks, Ventral Sacs,
Pneumatized Carapace, Melee Attack 2Protoss Production: Nexus, Air Armor 1Zerg Units: 75 Zerglings, 18 Infestors, (3/7 Queens nearby 7 Spines)
Protoss Units: 7 Zealots, 16 Stalkers, 14 Void Rays, 5 ColossiZerg Upgrades: Metabolic Boost, Pathogen Glands, Neural Parasite, Melee +2, Carapace +1 Protoss Upgrades: Blink, Extended Thermal Lance, Ground +1, Air +1 Looks tough, and I think you micro'd pretty well considering the odds. The main threat is the 14 Void Rays. I think instead of engaging by the rocks, it would have been better to stay behind your spines. If he uses the Void Rays to attack the spines, use fungal/queens. If he uses the Colossi to outrange the spines, NP them. I'm not sure what to do if he charges in with everything. Ideally, you'd want to fungal(range: 9) the void rays (range: 6), NP the colossi, and slow the zealots and stalkers from killing your infestors with your zerglings, spines, queens, more fungals, and infested terrans. I'm not sure how hard this would have been to pull-off in that game. A lot of people underestimate how strong Infested Terrans (range: 9) are. With 18-21 Infestors, it might be too hard to maximize their potential in battle...maybe it's good to preemptively cast Infested Terrans in that situation. Also, since you made a Baneling Nest (I advocate skipping Banelings until you are banking large amounts of gas), it might have been useful to turn 12 of your Zerglings into Banelings. Even though you did not have Centrifugal Hooks yet (17 minutes in!), you were defending on Creep, and he had 0 sentries. Fungal would prevent his Zealots and Stalkers from escaping. 21 Infestors, 12 Banelings, 89 Zerglings, and 3 Queens defending at your 7 spines on Creep would have probably been able to kill that army. Would cancelling some/all of your upgrades to use that gas for Banelings have worked? I wonder. Maybe someone with a better understanding of the game than I could help you here.
thx man. I think I should've slammed out 20 corruptors, and later turn them into broodlords would've helped. Say 6 infestors and 20 corruptors... I was having some trouble spending the minerals actually, I think corruptors would've helped alot. Should probably do massive overlord crackling drops, they're cheap anyways...
And in general scouting out his overall army composition would've been nice...  should probably invest in some overlord speed/drop mid-game as part of the gameplan...
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great op and this made me aware of this strat. Havent had the time to follow the scene too closely as of late and this seems really legit. ty alot!
gonna try this later today and am excite! :D
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EPT
