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[D] Larva Injection Analysis

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Sv1
Profile Joined June 2010
United States204 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-23 17:57:00
February 12 2011 21:32 GMT
#1
Updated: A second Graph has been added looking at a replay from Ret. Additionally a link to an XLS file has been added, use at own risk. I may, should I come into contact with them, do some replays of other high level zergs. Replays of NA and EU top level zergs seem to be a little more abundant, this could just be a result of my lack of searching skills. I would like to get a relatively current Idra replay if possible, as well as any other Code S zergs.

Updated 2/23/2011: Added to the resources section, a post from maxwellb which analyzes an SC2gears log. Don't ruin his server.


Larva Inject Analysis.

Greetings my TL friends. Let me first start with a little background, I'm a 2800 Diamond Terran player. The reason for this analysis was a result of a "lmfao terran imba" comment before a zerg left a ladder game I was playing. Now with my feelings hurt of both myself and that of the race I play, I said "why would this nice fellow who "gl hf"ed me at the start of the game be so angry at losing, losing's a part of the game. But then I realized, he's mad because he lost to a terran and terran is overpowered!!! (or so they say in many popular internet strategy forums). Determined, I looked at the replay to see if I had used my inherently overpowered abilities to defeat this poor zerg player in a rousing ladder match on scrap station.

Anyone who ever reads my posts about TvZ (which are few and I'm sure no one does). I am of a camp that says zerg is still a young race with a very different mechanic than the other two and might actually be an over-complicated race. Additionally zerg players have not yet matured skillwise to master their race. Simply put, they aren't being used to their potential by a majority of players. Top level zergs have already harnessed a lot of power, but I don't think we have seen a true master of the zerg race yet. My own prediction is that within the next year of the game, provided zerg's mechanic doesn't change zerg will be the best race.

I wanted to see how well my poor opponent used his queens. I felt that this was a great place to start, and as I watched the replay I started to notice the lack of spitting at times. This sparked my interest to I grabbed a pencil, some paper, a google doc, and my phone (stopwatch) and checked it out further.

Disclaimer: I should state that this is a very crude study with the bare minimum sample size. In the graph I post the results of only 2 of the 4 games I had looked at. This takes into account larva injects ONLY. The passive larva spawn, unit composition, micro, build order have zero to do with the purpose of this post. I am merely looking at the total larva produced over time via the Larva Inject mechanic. This post also has no discussion comparing it to protoss or terran (except for a few comments I make later). Those 2 are independant and I think the zerg community should look at these numbers by themselves before looking to how they balance among other races. Because it was a TvZ matchup that spawned the idea the replays analyzed are TvZ only. This really should be negligible since regardless of matchups, zerg need to inject their hatcheries

Larva Inject Analysis Method:

For this I looked at the down time on the hatchery in which 2 things were satisfied; The Queen had 25+ energy, and the hatchery was not in the process of "spawn larva". This downtime I call the Missed Injection Window (MIW or "MOO" if you say it I guess). The first thing to satisfy the MIW is that a queen must be paired with a hatchery. Once a hatchery is paired with a queen that has 25 energy, the timer is started. So the minute the first hatchery spawns its queen, the timer begins since queens will start with 25 energy. That is to say, that if your 2nd hatch pops while and then begins a queen to pair it, the timer is not running. If a creep tumor is placed, the MIW is from the moment the injection finishes the tumor is placed and then stops. It will restart the moment that the respective queen hits 25 energy again.

In the event a queen is killed: If the queen is killed during an injection the MIW timer starts at the time the injection completes until the next queen spits on it. This only occured in a replay I won't be posting the results here for (needless to say it can be devastating).

The Graph:
Haypro vs StarWEmpty
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Direct Link to graphic 1280x1080px

Ret vs tGcBosseR
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Direct Link to graphic 1280x1080px

The Analysis:

Well what are we looking at?

The span of each line represents the length of the entire game, and each line also represents a hatchery. Red indicates a time period in which a larva inject was available to the player but not used. Green then beings the spawn larva process, at the end of the green bar the number above it in the graph is how many total larva have been produced via Larva Inject among the hatcheries.

The numbers at the end of each bar represent the total time PER hatchery that spits were missed and roughly (rounded down) the amount of injections missed per hatchery. If you multiply that number by 4 and you can see the total units that could have been available.

Again, the plotted points above the bars represent the total larva to date produced, not army count, workers, or specific units. This is a cumulative representation of how many larva (via larva inject) have entered the game. Death of units made from the larva are also not included, this number can only go up.

Lastly, the 3rd section at the bottom is visualization of my poor zerg opponent had he been an insane ai (I haven't checked but I imagine that insane zerg never misses a spit)and hit every spit when he was able to.

Results:
Well there are some rather telling points in this visualization. Now, mind you I don't know how well Haypro was playing that day or if he was trying something new. You can see that his visualizations have many strings of smaller red bars. You can also see that Haypro got into a significant 'groove' around the 13' minute mark syncing his spits. When looking at the numbers, you can also see that haypro had significantly outproduced my opponent in larva even from an early point in the game.

You may also notice that Haypro's main and natural hatches had higher MIWs for the total game. Aside from the fact his game went longer, Haypro's 3rd and 4th hatches essentially had covered for the spits missed from his 1st and 2nd (e.g. the roughly 11 spits missed were canceled out by the addition of 2 more hatcheries).

Now I should mention that Haypro's 3rd hatch was in his main prior to taking his 3rd base. I will also note that his 3rd base never fully got up and running (it was being contested by his opponent) but it was still a vital production facility.

Updated: I've added a replay from Ret and compared to that of Haypro. I've also added some overlays to Ret's visualization to also highlight key events. You can see the stretches in his MIWs pretty much are relative to when he had to micro his units (the first larva inject window is slightly longer due to a creep tumor being spawned. He gains a slight edge over Haypro due to spitting so soon after his creep spawns. Because it's just 2 replays I don't think you can say Ret is better than Haypro, I didn't do an event overlay for Haypro though I can say from memory that the stretches are results of fighting. I think what we can see is that, better players, are better at their spits. You can see that during "peace time" Ret is really good about his spits, between 2-7 seconds.

Conclusions & an Open Challenge:

I think first and foremost what we can take from this is: Don't miss spits, or be as close as possible to making them. This obviously is nothing new to anybody. But perhaps this visualization puts things in a better perspective. From this I can only conclude is that the spits missed from your MIWs are esentially units that will not enter the game. This is slightly different from chronoboost and orbitals (provided they have not maxed out) in that those 2 can still be using on something. Mules can still work on mineral patches, and chronoboost can be used on something like an upgrade (or two), a robo/stargate unit. It is somewhat similar to the concept of using your warpgate cooldowns, but warpgates are still limited by economy. You don't need an economy to spawn larva, just a queen with energy.

Perhaps players who don't build a 3rd hatch in main will consider adding a hatchery in their main prior to trying to take secure a 3rd base and droning it right away. If we look at the numbers haypro was producing after the 13th minute mark, he was able to produce 12 units at a time. Now if you compare that to a terran or protoss on 2 bases, they too will most likely have the infastructure of 8-10 production buildings. You also have to consider that some of those larva need to be produced into overlords for supply, so in one instance, you could consider one of those missed spits a curcial supply cap increase.

Edit: I missed an important point I wanted to make. Yes, the queen larva inject is much more unforgiving as a mechanic, if you fall behind, the only way you can capitalize is if you invest in another hatchery. Whereas terran and protoss can spend it elsewhere, queens can't exactly dump it, creep spread and transfusion are dumps but not in the same value of getting larva. I won't say whether this is broken and should be fixed, but i will say that if you want to be good at zerg, this is ability is paramount to your success in the game's current incarnation.

Also, imagine what a robot haypro would produce?

Anyway, I challenge zerg players to go back and watch a replay that they lost or won and actually sit and see how much their total MIW was and how many larva they could be missing out on. I hope this doesn't turn into a discussion about race balance, but simply people discussing how to use their queens and ways to get better at syncing your spits.

Resources:
XLS file by ExoTau. I don't have Office, so I can't test it though he's made one and it's there. Use at your own risk. This utilizes SC2gears' log file. Larva Inject XLS macro
His post can be found here.

Another Analyzer script based on SC2Gears from posted Maxwellb: http://inject.maxwellb.com/
see his post here on how to use it

Lastly: I was inspired by Lalush's Post about macro mechanics to take a bit more of an empirical approach to SC2, I graduated with a degree in digital media so I'm not terribly on top of numbers so there is perhaps a bit of a margin of error. However, I don't think it is wide enough to make these numbers completely inconsequential. Grammar also isn't a strong suit so don't crucify me about my excessive comma use, I know it's a problem, and I am getting, help! The replay of Haypro can be found Here a la sc2rep.com. The Ret replay can be found Here

Questions and comments are welcome.
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
February 12 2011 21:34 GMT
#2
thread says larva injection anal... lol..
ondik
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Czech Republic2908 Posts
February 12 2011 21:35 GMT
#3
oh my god, mods change the name please
Bisu. The one and only. // Save the cheerreaver, save the world (of SC2)
CDCramer
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States61 Posts
February 12 2011 21:39 GMT
#4
wow, this is really interesting, ive miss injects alot, but i never realised that it impacted me so much, btw on the forum side bar it says "larvae injection anal" lolol
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
February 12 2011 21:41 GMT
#5
Everyone needs to stop using the word, "Analysis," in the title of their thread.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
Keitzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2509 Posts
February 12 2011 21:45 GMT
#6
so you're advocating more hatcheries in the base?

i kind of understood the graph (very confusing at first) showing how much better off Haypro was.

Lastly, are you also saying that b/c MULES can still mine and chrono can be mass blown... that zerg energy (or something similar) needs a similar mechanic?
I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
February 12 2011 21:45 GMT
#7
Well, this thread was a disappointment....


haha on-topic, I find this mechanic to be both good and bad. Zerg's larva mechanic is still too unforgiving in comparison to Terran's I believe, and this kind of mechanical "every 40 seconds click this" just artificially heightens the skill cap. Of course, then pros such as Haypro really stand out.
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
February 12 2011 21:46 GMT
#8
This is a nice example of just how much room for improvement there is at a decent level like the 2900 opponent. His opponent doesn't even approach his potential... actually as the game goes on he gets progressively worse and further from the perfect robot larva model, which is to be expected i guess given theres alot more shit going on.

I thnk its important for people, before they go on about balance all over the TL forums, to analyze their replays and ask "why am I 20 larva behind where I could be at the 7 minute mark'? I guess the real question is... how to clean it up. Haypro adds hatches. More zergs should add hatches sooner.
Keitzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2509 Posts
February 12 2011 21:52 GMT
#9
On February 13 2011 06:46 Jayrod wrote:
This is a nice example of just how much room for improvement there is at a decent level like the 2900 opponent. His opponent doesn't even approach his potential... actually as the game goes on he gets progressively worse and further from the perfect robot larva model, which is to be expected i guess given theres alot more shit going on.



build another hatch, don't build another queen... problem solved
I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489
tealc
Profile Joined October 2010
109 Posts
February 12 2011 21:53 GMT
#10
I get the feeling that people are now analysing starcraft for the sake of analysing.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
February 12 2011 21:54 GMT
#11
On February 13 2011 06:45 Keitzer wrote:
so you're advocating more hatcheries in the base?

i kind of understood the graph (very confusing at first) showing how much better off Haypro was.

Lastly, are you also saying that b/c MULES can still mine and chrono can be mass blown... that zerg energy (or something similar) needs a similar mechanic?

He's saying the zerg macro mechanic is not as forgiving, which is arguable with regards to things chronoboost, but probably pretty obvious that it effects zerg in a very direct and noticeable way.

Queens can also heal and spread creep and stuff so i don't know if they need a new mechanic. Players just need to get better.
Odoakar
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia1837 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 21:57:56
February 12 2011 21:56 GMT
#12
I feel the protoss players have also started to realize the importance of CB their probes, and doing it as soon as the CB is ready, and all throughout the game. So it will come to the point where it pretty much resembles the inject mechanics - you will have to drop it as soon as your nexus has enough energy, and do so at every nexus you have, keeping you energy constantly low.

Now if only the terran mules had a cooldown so you couldn't just drop dozen of them, but would have to drop them in similar fashion...
schiznak
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 21:57:58
February 12 2011 21:57 GMT
#13
Id be interested in a program where you can plug in the replay and it will spit out a similar graph.

Anyways, the main conclusions to be drawn from this is that;

A: Nobody is perfect
B: Haypro is better than a 2900 diamond player
C: Investing 450 in a macro hatch and a queen is a signifigantly better solution to missed injects.
"That's very e-sports of you to have the camera focused on the people instead of the game" -ultradavid
UruzuNine
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada162 Posts
February 12 2011 22:00 GMT
#14
I personally find larvae inject similar to how a Terran will constantly check his production facilities to make sure they're producing. I don't think missing a larvae inject is as unforgiving as Zergs make it (i.e. you still get at least 3 larvae per hatchery, so it's not like Terran where entire production rounds can be missed -- although a Z's production capability will obviously become lessened for a time).

I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter.
UruzuNine
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada162 Posts
February 12 2011 22:04 GMT
#15
On February 13 2011 06:56 Odoakar wrote:
I feel the protoss players have also started to realize the importance of CB their probes, and doing it as soon as the CB is ready, and all throughout the game. So it will come to the point where it pretty much resembles the inject mechanics - you will have to drop it as soon as your nexus has enough energy, and do so at every nexus you have, keeping you energy constantly low.

Now if only the terran mules had a cooldown so you couldn't just drop dozen of them, but would have to drop them in similar fashion...

P and T are similar in kinda opposite ways. For example, T production is similar to CB in that you have to constantly check and make sure you're hitting the right intervals for maximum output. MULE is similar to warp gates in that you can spam a bunch out at once.

Kinda weird, comparing each race's army production with the other's economy mechanics.
thesideshow
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
930 Posts
February 12 2011 22:13 GMT
#16
On February 13 2011 07:00 UruzuNine wrote:
I personally find larvae inject similar to how a Terran will constantly check his production facilities to make sure they're producing. I don't think missing a larvae inject is as unforgiving as Zergs make it (i.e. you still get at least 3 larvae per hatchery, so it's not like Terran where entire production rounds can be missed -- although a Z's production capability will obviously become lessened for a time).

I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter.


I look at it slightly differently. Zergs also have to manage their larva production cycles; this is similar to the mentioned terran production cycle.This is because,

"If a Hatchery has 3 or more Larvae, it will not naturally create more."

So the remaining cycle to monitor is spawn larva/MULE. Spawn larva being more unforgiving.
OGS:levelchange
UruzuNine
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada162 Posts
February 12 2011 22:28 GMT
#17
On February 13 2011 07:13 thesideshow wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2011 07:00 UruzuNine wrote:
I personally find larvae inject similar to how a Terran will constantly check his production facilities to make sure they're producing. I don't think missing a larvae inject is as unforgiving as Zergs make it (i.e. you still get at least 3 larvae per hatchery, so it's not like Terran where entire production rounds can be missed -- although a Z's production capability will obviously become lessened for a time).

I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter.


I look at it slightly differently. Zergs also have to manage their larva production cycles; this is similar to the mentioned terran production cycle.This is because,

"If a Hatchery has 3 or more Larvae, it will not naturally create more."

So the remaining cycle to monitor is spawn larva/MULE. Spawn larva being more unforgiving.

If we go that way then we can say that spawn larva/MULE is more T forgiving, while production cycle is more Z forgiving.

Natural larvae production and MULEs are similar in that you can not use them for a bit and still be fine, make use of them all at once, and have a quantity cap (3 larvae per hatch, 4 MULEs -- 200 energy -- per OC).

^ That's the reason why I coupled larvae inject with T production, because MULE and natural larvae are more similar.
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 22:40:47
February 12 2011 22:32 GMT
#18
I still don't understand this graph even after spending a good 5 min on it. You say that ur opponent lacks of attention about spitting, but judging from the graph it's a mere error that doesn't justify his lose... Another thing i don't understand is why would you count creep tumor or transfusion (if there is any) on this graph ? That's why i spent minutes to understand why there were like half greenish bars compared to the robot's one. A clear way for the graph would be to cancel any creep/transfusion and additionnal hatches for 1 queen and focus more on the spitting hatches (possibly only 1 per base assuming there's a queen).
This way we would clearly see any late spit errors.
On February 13 2011 06:57 schiznak wrote:
Anyways, the main conclusions to be drawn from this is that;

C: Investing 450 in a macro hatch and a queen is a signifigantly better solution to missed injects.

It's not. Because either you'd still miss spits, or have too much larvaes idling.

The graph itself isn't telling you how accurately you need to be spitting in order to get full use of larvaes.

Edit : Oh and, ur opponent got a way later 2nd hatch in natural, thus having a delay for queens larvaes.
Meh, i think it's safe to think the sample size is too small to really think that larvae issue is what made him lose the game.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 22:36:11
February 12 2011 22:35 GMT
#19
Shouldnt this be in Strategy section?
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
February 12 2011 22:36 GMT
#20
this is a really cool looking graph but i'm not sure how it benefits anyone other than the OP.
ideally you shouldn't have excess energy on your Nexus/Orbital/Queen. i think people blow the difficulty of the other race's mechanics out of proportion although zerg does have two (tumor/inject).
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