EPT[D] Larva Injection Analysis - Page 2
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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Veritassong
Canada393 Posts
On February 13 2011 07:00 UruzuNine wrote: I personally find larvae inject similar to how a Terran will constantly check his production facilities to make sure they're producing. I don't think missing a larvae inject is as unforgiving as Zergs make it (i.e. you still get at least 3 larvae per hatchery, so it's not like Terran where entire production rounds can be missed -- although a Z's production capability will obviously become lessened for a time). I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter.  Too bad you cant queue larvae injects | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
haha. first sentence than popped into my mind also. Great read OP, really put a few ideas and thoughts into my head | ||
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
On February 13 2011 07:32 RaiZ wrote: I still don't understand this graph even after spending a good 5 min on it. You say that ur opponent lacks of attention about spitting, but judging from the graph it's a mere error that doesn't justify his lose... Another thing i don't understand is why would you count creep tumor or transfusion (if there is any) on this graph ? That's why i spent minutes to understand why there were like half greenish bars compared to the robot's one. A clear way for the graph would be to cancel any creep/transfusion and additionnal hatches for 1 queen and focus more on the spitting hatches (possibly only 1 per base assuming there's a queen). This way we would clearly see any late spit errors. It's not. Because either you'd still miss spits, or have too much larvaes idling. The graph itself isn't telling you how accurately you need to be spitting in order to get full use of larvaes. Edit : Oh and, ur opponent got a way later 2nd hatch in natural, thus having a delay for queens larvaes. Meh, i think it's safe to think the sample size is too small to really think that larvae issue is what made him lose the game. The story of my ladder game was simply a pretext for why I was looking at this. How and why he lost the game isn't the issue. The issue is how under produced in larva he was. To say that you'll lose a game because you didn't spit is one thing, but you certainly won't win one without doing it. The purpose of the graph is to show what COULD be if you are good about your spits and your hatchery count. As far tumors/transfusions are concerned, I said that these weren't counted in the visualization, if someone made a decision to creep tumor instead of spit, the graph won't reflect it. | ||
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
On February 13 2011 07:36 Sprouter wrote: this is a really cool looking graph but i'm not sure how it benefits anyone other than the OP. ideally you shouldn't have excess energy on your Nexus/Orbital/Queen. i think people blow the difficulty of the other race's mechanics out of proportion although zerg does have two (tumor/inject). I didn't want to blow anything out of proportion, I was merely trying to visualize larva injects over the course of a game. If a zerg is in a game with 1200 minerals, an unmaxed army and no larva to spend, perhaps the 3 spits missed thus far are a case. Again this really wasn't any sort of breakthrough. We know you need to spit on your hatchery, this isn't anything new. I was trying to bring a visualization into the mix. While Haypro is obviously better than a 2900 hundred diamond player on many levels, one level that a 2900 diamond player can meet Haypro, is being as good about spits as he is (and his addition of hatcheries). | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
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ppgButtercup
United States159 Posts
This is one of the most common errors Zerg players have that hold them back. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
For players that are, say, not spitting larvae for let's say roughly 25% of the time, which is probably anyone gold and under and possibly even some diamonds: It is more cost efficient to build hatches instead of Queens for larvae (I stress this, for larvae! Hatches can't provide defense obviously). Another benefit to having a Hatch is that you can save the APM you would need to keep injecting and that a Hatch does not die nearly as fast as a Queen, and you can use it to help block some key area like as a semi wall and/or use it to spread creep. Don't remember my calculations, may be I'll recalculate to see exactly how good at Injecting you need to be for a Queen to be able to out-larvae a Hatchery (speaking of larvae ONLY). | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
On February 13 2011 07:00 UruzuNine wrote: I personally find larvae inject similar to how a Terran will constantly check his production facilities to make sure they're producing. I don't think missing a larvae inject is as unforgiving as Zergs make it (i.e. you still get at least 3 larvae per hatchery, so it's not like Terran where entire production rounds can be missed -- although a Z's production capability will obviously become lessened for a time). I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter. well you can not really queue larvae injects altho it can be a bit similar | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On February 13 2011 07:32 RaiZ wrote: I still don't understand this graph even after spending a good 5 min on it. You say that ur opponent lacks of attention about spitting, but judging from the graph it's a mere error that doesn't justify his lose... Another thing i don't understand is why would you count creep tumor or transfusion (if there is any) on this graph ? That's why i spent minutes to understand why there were like half greenish bars compared to the robot's one. A clear way for the graph would be to cancel any creep/transfusion and additionnal hatches for 1 queen and focus more on the spitting hatches (possibly only 1 per base assuming there's a queen). This way we would clearly see any late spit errors. It's not. Because either you'd still miss spits, or have too much larvaes idling. The graph itself isn't telling you how accurately you need to be spitting in order to get full use of larvaes. Edit : Oh and, ur opponent got a way later 2nd hatch in natural, thus having a delay for queens larvaes. Meh, i think it's safe to think the sample size is too small to really think that larvae issue is what made him lose the game. The post is meant as a microcosm of a big zerg problem that often prevents meaningful balance discussions from occuring. The problem is how can you know if your perceived imbalance exists if you are not playing anywhere near where you should be mechanically. Its not a balance post... if anything, he is agreeing with the sentiment that zergs really get punished hard for missing spits... harder than the other two races for their macro mechanic. The graphs are just kind of showing how big of a difference it makes. Additionally, I think it also represents a possible problem from the standpoint of blizzard trying to figure out what can be done to fix zergs without making them overpowered. If played perfectly, their power is incredible.. but even decent players ~2900 diamond zerg (not great, but not shabby) fall so short and have so much room to grow that maybe they dont need to do any fundamental changes. | ||
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znowstorm
Australia281 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Qt4mr.png) | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
On February 13 2011 08:41 znowstorm wrote: Very good writeup, however it is marred by one small thing. Ha yes, I was wondering where those comments about the title were coming from. Probably counts for all the views and low reply count (lot of disappointed Anal fans). On February 13 2011 08:50 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: MIssing larva injects doesn't really matter that much so long as you have enough larva to spend all your money. If you're spending all your money without perfect larva splits then actually doing perfect larva splits will simply result in pooled larva, which is a benefit, but not a huge game changer in most circumstances. This is also a good point which I've skated around. At the same token however, by having more larva early on (lets say you are on the ball for the first 4 spits) that could mean your drone count is climbing faster than it normally would (say you miss one because of a push). Now larva are being spent on units only instead of units and economy. Lalush had pointed out in his post that to graph zerg worker gathering is a huge headache, because it will happen a little erratically (which I think is also in part due to mis-timed spits as well). | ||
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Kaasflipje
Netherlands198 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On February 13 2011 09:22 Kaasflipje wrote: Mod title change again? no this one is just what it is to start off with haha | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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teemh
Canada120 Posts
/ QQ machine | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On February 13 2011 06:34 B.I.G. wrote: thread says larva injection anal... lol.. ^^ | ||
Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
 Though nice read, thank you for the analysis. | ||
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