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I'm aPs, currently a 704 Masters protoss on the NA server, 3828 last season, so don't expect this to be coming from a super pro or anything like that. This is a DT expand build modified from what oGsMC used against July in game 4 of the GSL finals from last season.
Build Order + Show Spoiler + 9 pylon 14 gate 15 gas 16 gas 17 pylon 18 cyber 19 zealot Priority of units on the first gate is zealot-> sentry -> sentry, all chrono on gateway. Only make 2 sentries.
Twilight council between 4:20-4:40 depending on when you get the drone out of your base, if it comes.
2 more gateway @ 30 supply.
DT shrine immediately after twilight council finishes.
Expand to nat by 6:30.
3 DTs warp in between 7:10-7:30, head towards zerg base with DTs.
From here you may pursue many routes. My most common one is 3 gate 2 robo.
Goals + Show Spoiler + With your first 3 DTs, take 2 to whichever base has a lair going up, and 1 to the other. Your goal is to kill as many drones as possible. Once you start fleeing, proceed to take out the lair. If this does not appear to be possible, take out the roach warren if it is possible/exists. Your goal is to preserve the life of your DTs so as to keep the threat up as long as possible.
Your aim is to use the mobility of the DTs to stall for as much time as possible, and slow down the zerg econ as much as possible. Kill all the building creep tumors that you can, and try to slow down the zerg 3rd. If the zerg takes too much of their army and their overseer to take a 3rd, try to sneak a dt into the main, wait for the army to go up the main ramp, then sneak another dt into the nat, and the 3rd dt should start hitting the 3rd hatch as it is going up. Always pull out before the overseer gets within range of your dt - of course the dt that sneaks into the main will undoubtedly die, but you should be able to buy enough time to make it worth it.
While this is going on, you may either prepare a strong 2 base push, or expand faster than normal, depending on what the zerg is doing.
If you plan on playing aggressively, 3 gate 2 robo is probably the strongest response - however, if you want to strongly attack with no intention to expand behind the attack, then you should aim to have 2 more gateways finish as the push is hitting the zerg nat. You will then rely on immortal stalker sentry + multiple observer in order to deal with the zerg army, which may have burrowed roach. You need multiple observers in case one gets sniped.
General Followup + Show Spoiler + At this point you should be able to delay any creep spread/3rd even if your DTs did not really do any damage. Now you must decide whether to go for a 2 base timing attack or expand to your 3rd.
2 base 3 gate 2 robo is probably the strongest version, wherein you attack with stalker sentry immortal with multiple observers. If you intend to pin all your hopes on this push killing the zerg, then you should build gates so that you have 2 more gateways coming online just as your push is hitting the nat, because immortals take a very long time to arrive from your robos. So, once your initial push hits, you will be transitioning from 3 gate 2 robo into 5 gate with the intent to finish the game.
You can also incorporate stargates if you would like, though I do that more rarely, so not too sure on how stargate variants work.
Expand If you expand, you will have to be VERY active with your dts, to delay any threat of a push. You will be relying on stalker sentry immortal in this case to defend and get colossus, unless of course you went stargate, in which case you will have void rays and less immortal.
vs Specific Builds + Show Spoiler +Fast spore w/ defense+ Show Spoiler + This is obviously one of the most dangerous builds to come up against, as you will pretty much do 0 damage. Of course, once the zerg eventually takes his nat gas, it is sometimes possible to sneak in and snipe a drone or two before backing off, but this is dangerous since speedlings could surround you.
The exact response to this I am still testing, mainly by telling my opponent exact what I am going so that they blind counter me without scouting.
If your dts run into this, then you must prepare for the possibility of a 2 base drop timing around 11:00 to 13:00, the later the less potent in comparison to what you can have. You will have to start a robo at 7:30 as gas and minerals permit, and quickly build an observer and prepare to go 5 gate 1 robo colossus. Your DTs must not die, and preferably not take any non shield damage. They need to fan out and scout for any expansion attempts and also to snipe creep tumors. It will be very very bad for you if the zerg sneaks a hidden 3rd on you, and you assume that the zerg is 2 basing the entire time.
Upon completion of the robo, build an observer asap and find his tech path. While the obs is building/in transit, you can poke in and out with your DTs and try to see the zerg's unit mix. If you see a lot of roaches (and there will probably be speedlings with them), then it is safe to assume for a moment that a roach ling push with possible drop and burrow is coming, so start pumping out immortal stalker sentry. If you see hydra, you will need to head towards colossus asap. The drop will likely come when you only have 1 colossus. In this case, your goal is to scout for when the drop is being prepared with your obs while denying the 3rd as long as possible with DTs, then pull the DTs back in time to morph 2 archons for his push.
Either way, the threat of a drop leading to a multi pronged front is dangerous. You will need to start a new cyber core at 9:30 in some place that does not block your ramp, and kill the cyber core you currently have at the ramp, as the choke created by your ramp wall will create an extremely unfavorable bottleneck for your units.
If the zerg is still on 2 base, then your goal is simply to defend with minimal loss. Do that and you will be able to counterpush the zerg so long as your colossi do not die - the colossus count is key to your counterpush success.
Thus far, it seems that stargate play is too risky with regards to a hydra ling elevator, and mass gateway play does not fair very well, though I have not tried heavy archon blink stalker mixes yet, which theoretically might do well vs hydra ling if I keep my initial sentries alive, stock up their energy, and throw down some amazing forcefields (assuming 2 base hydra ling).
If you scout that the zerg is intending to expand rather than 2 base you, then you must harass as much as possible with the DTs, take a fast 3rd (in some cases depending on what you scout, you can expand even at 10:00) which is defended by 3 gate 2 robo into 5 gate 1 robo production. Once the 3rd is up, you will be relying on warp prism play to delay the zerg's economy and buy more time for you to max out or otherwise have an army capable of applying serious pressure.
The way you do this varies based on what the zerg is doing. Some zergs go mass sling/bling. In this case, you can do a 2 sentry 2 zealot drop behind the mineral line of 1 base, and use FF + zealot positioning to force drones off mining. Meanwhile, you should have a proxy pylon near the 3rd to warp in DTs or other units to attack that, place your warp prism so that it can warp in both in the main and nat, and generally harass all 3 bases simultaneously as much as possible with care to lose as little as possible.
Once your 3rd is up, you will be going 9 gate 2 robo, with probe production halted around 70. Once your 4th completes around 22:00 you will adding more gateways and researching warp prism speed, with the aim to have 2 speed prism flying around the map and allowing you to harass every zerg base simultaneously, forcing static defense which cuts from either their drone count or army count.
But again, this branch has not been well tested yet - still in the process.
For instance, not sure yet when is the best time to start upgrade research with this build, as you are a bit unit/gas starved at the beginning.
An extra note - it is important to start blink the moment you feel safe. Hopefully you're not wrong about being safe.
Strengths of the build + Show Spoiler + 1. Mobility DTs have a movespeed of 2.8125. Overseers are 1.875(+0.875). Thus, no matter what your dt will be faster than the overseers which will be pursuing you. Therefore, as long as you start retreating before the overseer enters vision range of your dt, you cannot be caught.
2. Unconventionality Most zergs do not expect this build. As such, they may have an overseer but not spores, or spores, but only one, or in the wrong location (placed for void ray/phoenix rather than dt). With good control, this will usually allow you to get an advantage even with minimal drone kills, since you will be able to force drones off mining for some amount of time in most cases.
3. Archons Even after the useful life of your DTs end, sometimes the zerg will make many lings. In these rarer branches, you will find that a couple (literally 2) well placed archons can vastly increase the strength of your army.
Weaknesses + Show Spoiler + Fast mass roach pushes (~just before 10 minutes) with overseer+burrow can be difficult to hold off if you did not do any damage at all with your dt, as my roommate discovered vs StrifeCro. A faster robo may work well against that though, and similarly it should be possible to backstab the zerg's main/nat once the push leaves creep.
In general, very tight detection setups coupled with a fast push may be difficult to hold.
This build is not intended to be a 'do this every game' type build like the usual 3 gate expand is for most people. This is more of a surprise build that you mix in to your repertoire.
And lastly.... It is hard to get the maximal life and use out of your DTs while doing every else without making your timings late, since you want all your DTs to be in different places and all active simultaneously as much as possible.
FAQ + Show Spoiler + What was modified from MC's build? MC got his gateway at 12, and gas at 14/15. This results in less mineral income, albeit slightly faster gas income. However, as MC expanded at 6:50 as a result of the lower mineral income, with only 1 stalker 1 sentry for gas units, it should have been a build that is extremely suspicious. The goal of this build is to expand by 6:30 and have two sentries out early, to allay some zerg suspicions. Of course you will still only have 2 sentries, so if you are playing a boX, you should hide sentries as much as possible when doing more normal builds, to leave an element of uncertainty. Also, MC followed up his build with 6 gate blink stalker sentry at 13:00. He had no obs, and by then the zerg should have many roaches with burrow and burrow movement, which means the push should not have worked. July unfortunately double teched hydra and spire, but went roach, got burrow late, and went roach speed before burrowed movement.
Replays + Show Spoiler +This replay shows the avoidance of overlords, and using this build against early roach/ling pushes. Bubba makes a 2nd roach warren by accident, which certainly affected his chances. Will add more replays as I play them, I keep forgetting to save my 1v1 replays, so have none atm
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Awesome. Gonna give this a few tries after I catch the replies but wanted to say thanks before I started.
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Nice evaluation and explanation of the build... I'll test it out and i'll come back to tell me results :O
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Hm, this isn't anything terribly new but thanks for the write up! I've had quite a bit of success with this build.
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Watched the replay, very cool. Definitely puts the zerg on the back foot whilst letting you get your expo and army going. I'll start doing this on the ladder, for sure. Thanks for the post, Brotoss.
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Just added a replay of my roommate ElParamedico playing VTZerker with this build. Zerker went ling/bling.
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I can only see this being effective on some maps where:
A) It's harder for the zerg to get sacrificial ovies in position in time, and B) The zerg can't defend both his main and natural with a single spore/overseer (and his third with an additional spore or OS)
For example, I don't think this would be very effective on maps like Shakuras or Scrap.
Honestly, if I scout a twilight council with my first sacrificial overlord at 5:00, I'm going to know it's either this or blink stalkers, and if I can't scout your unit composition, I'm throwing down a spore at my natural choke and morphing in an OS as soon as my lair's done.
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On April 16 2011 17:41 Dellward wrote: I can only see this being effective on some maps where:
A) It's harder for the zerg to get sacrificial ovies in position in time, and B) The zerg can't defend both his main and natural with a single spore/overseer (and his third with an additional spore or OS)
For example, I don't think this would be very effective on maps like Shakuras or Scrap.
Honestly, if I scout a twilight council with my first sacrificial overlord at 5:00, I'm going to know it's either this or blink stalkers, and if I can't scout your unit composition, I'm throwing down a spore at my natural choke and morphing in an OS as soon as my lair's done.
From most angles you can kill the overlord before it sees your dark shrine/twilight, and the overlord will scout 2 sentries (and you can throw in a stalker too if you dont care about your 3rd dt being late by about 10 seconds), so usually this doesn't arouse too much suspicious. On larger 4 player maps, there are all sorts of places you can proxy it based on opponent habits, which is something that is more reliable if you know who you are playing. There are a number of general areas that zergs tend to not scout depending on spawn positions and map though, but that's taking a risk.
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Looks good, I'll probably be trying out. Just a quick question on your follow up, I've always found 2 robos to be extremely all-inish vs Zerg. After the point of the game when immortals lose their efficiency, you can only use them to build collossi, and I've found that constant collossi off 2 robos (on three bases) usually produces a protoss ball that is too collossi heavy and very easily counterable. Do you just build the second robo for the immortal push and then stop using it or does it have other uses later in the game ?
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On April 16 2011 18:15 Geiko wrote: Looks good, I'll probably be trying out. Just a quick question on your follow up, I've always found 2 robos to be extremely all-inish vs Zerg. After the point of the game when immortals lose their efficiency, you can only use them to build collossi, and I've found that constant collossi off 2 robos (on three bases) usually produces a protoss ball that is too collossi heavy and very easily counterable. Do you just build the second robo for the immortal push and then stop using it or does it have other uses later in the game ?
Just for immortal + backup obs. Once you go colossus you won't be supporting 2 generally unless you are about to get a 3rd, which you do take behind the push, if you don't put up 2 more gateways that finish as you as arriving at the zerg nat, because if you don't make those gateways, you are going to have 3 instead of 5 stalkers reinforcing per wave, which isn't very effective. Generally zerg should be able to defend that, albeit be forced to make units, and so you expand.
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I just used it and it was like a miracle appeared from the "standard" 3-gate sentry expand builds. Thank you so very much! Going to be using this a lot more often in PvZ on ladder wherever possible!
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On April 16 2011 17:53 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 17:41 Dellward wrote: I can only see this being effective on some maps where:
A) It's harder for the zerg to get sacrificial ovies in position in time, and B) The zerg can't defend both his main and natural with a single spore/overseer (and his third with an additional spore or OS)
For example, I don't think this would be very effective on maps like Shakuras or Scrap.
Honestly, if I scout a twilight council with my first sacrificial overlord at 5:00, I'm going to know it's either this or blink stalkers, and if I can't scout your unit composition, I'm throwing down a spore at my natural choke and morphing in an OS as soon as my lair's done. From most angles you can kill the overlord before it sees your dark shrine/twilight, and the overlord will scout 2 sentries (and you can throw in a stalker too if you dont care about your 3rd dt being late by about 10 seconds), so usually this doesn't arouse too much suspicious. On larger 4 player maps, there are all sorts of places you can proxy it based on opponent habits, which is something that is more reliable if you know who you are playing. There are a number of general areas that zergs tend to not scout depending on spawn positions and map though, but that's taking a risk. I guess it's only as good as your word verse mine, but I think you're playing over zerg's ability to scout this. I agree that this build might be effective on big 4 player maps (Typoon, TDA, Terminus) where the zerg might scout you last, but on Scrap, Shakuras or close-air metal/shattered, a zerg is going to be able to scout your entire base with multiple overlords peaking in at once, and will probably only lose one. Remember that you're only killing the overlord with two sentries, which will take forever.
This leaves you with the option of proxying, which is obviously a huge risk.
Not to mention that a good zerg player is probably going to notice you only have two sentries and wonder where the gas is going - which is usually either Stargate/s or this.
Oh, and a gas steal will just ruin your day.
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nice build, thx for sharing
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On April 16 2011 18:28 Dellward wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 17:53 EtherealDeath wrote:On April 16 2011 17:41 Dellward wrote: I can only see this being effective on some maps where:
A) It's harder for the zerg to get sacrificial ovies in position in time, and B) The zerg can't defend both his main and natural with a single spore/overseer (and his third with an additional spore or OS)
For example, I don't think this would be very effective on maps like Shakuras or Scrap.
Honestly, if I scout a twilight council with my first sacrificial overlord at 5:00, I'm going to know it's either this or blink stalkers, and if I can't scout your unit composition, I'm throwing down a spore at my natural choke and morphing in an OS as soon as my lair's done. From most angles you can kill the overlord before it sees your dark shrine/twilight, and the overlord will scout 2 sentries (and you can throw in a stalker too if you dont care about your 3rd dt being late by about 10 seconds), so usually this doesn't arouse too much suspicious. On larger 4 player maps, there are all sorts of places you can proxy it based on opponent habits, which is something that is more reliable if you know who you are playing. There are a number of general areas that zergs tend to not scout depending on spawn positions and map though, but that's taking a risk. I guess it's only as good as your word verse mine, but I think you're playing over zerg's ability to scout this. I agree that this build might be effective on big 4 player maps (Typoon, TDA, Terminus) where the zerg might scout you last, but on Scrap, Shakuras or close-air metal/shattered, a zerg is going to be able to scout your entire base with multiple overlords peaking in at once, and will probably only lose one. Remember that you're only killing the overlord with two sentries, which will take forever. This leaves you with the option of proxying, which is obviously a huge risk. Not to mention that a good zerg player is probably going to notice you only have two sentries and wonder where the gas is going - which is usually either Stargate/s or this. Oh, and a gas steal will just ruin your day.
Which is why you get gas before your 2nd pylon and before you cyber core. Again, there are tells for this build, there's no guarantee on keeping the zerg from scouting. Just have to try to avoid what overlords you see. If no damage is done, then yes, you will be behind, but you can still utiilize DTs to slow down creep spread/third, and be a bit defensive at first with a faster robo.
And like I mentioned, in a boX series I would be hiding gas when doing normal builds, to make it more confusing what is going on, so that that particular tell is more difficult to rely on.
edit - various trickery has worked on a number of pretty well ranked players. From recent memory, coLRyze and LGSyckness died immediately to the DTs, as they were going some late lair build or something, and completely did not see it coming.
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I think this build is quite strong, the one thing that kinda gives it away a bit is that you dont warp in another 3 sentries at ~6:00ish as you would with the 3 gate expand. So if are able to kill off the scoutling once you move out of your base, its a big win, because the zerg player has to send a new one first, which takes some time, and he wont immidiately notice the low sentry count then.
I think if the zerg goes for blind spore crawlers you've pretty much just lost (ofc comebacks are always possible). On the other hand, if you just delay mining a bit and kill a queen or two and some drones, you're in a pretty comfortable position.
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I like this build a lot for team games. It's fairly safe and packs a good punch. Easy to transition out of as well.
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Weakness should be close position, IMO.
I've tried to do DT 3gate expand (not like the OP's though), after I managed to get 10drone kills the Zerg retaliated by doing Hydra/Ling 2base all-in using Overlords for creep highway + Seers, You spend too much gas on DT tech, so all you have is DT/Zealot/Sentry/Cannon vs Hydra/Ling/Seer as you try tech to Colossus which is always late
I think this build is quite strong, the one thing that kinda gives it away a bit is that you dont warp in another 3 sentries at ~6:00ish as you would with the 3 gate expand.
I think you get destroyed too hard by counter attacks if you skip 3 sentries. They usually get around enough for 6 forcefields for an immediate counter + half way to another 3, which, IMO, you need to survive/delay. My Variant uses an extra two sentries with gas before gateway
Oh, and a gas steal will just ruin your day.
You get gas too quick to be gas stealed in his build..
My advice: Try gas before gateway if you are going for a 14gate, at that point you aren't going to be able to defend a 6/10pool any better, and you get some extra gas for Sentries (which are lighter on minerals too). The drone in your base usually delays your twilight from dropping anyway, so it shouldn't effect the timing of your DT's
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Ethereal this build looks absolutely awesome, I loved the replay and I love DT's. I'm not a high level player but I really lookg forward to trying this, thanks for much for the effort you put into the OP!
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I've been doing some variation of this for quite some time now, and I've also been doing fast DTs off fast expansions where those are "viable" and even though you could get blind countered or scouted, you gain so much mapcontrol that I think it's Alot easier to get a early third up and transition to blink stalker -> HTs providing you with a really mobile army and strong defense (storm+cannons).
I'm just not the biggest fan of robo play though, but I'm sure it's quite strong vs heavy roach play. Thanks for the writeup, I'm gonna delve into it abit more later <3
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This build will just totally own Spanishiwa's no gas build, the lair is so late for that build imo.
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He gets early evos though, and with decent scouting you should sense something and atleast block the ramp. If you dont manage to do that, it might be hard to stop I guess.
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Personally, I love spamming archons and chargelots when I open with DTs. I'm really low level so there's almost a 100% chance my opponent is going some kind of roach/ling/hydra variant. That bonus to bio totally wrecks most zerg units.
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On April 16 2011 20:31 Dommk wrote:Weakness should be close position, IMO. I've tried to do DT 3gate expand (not like the OP's though), after I managed to get 10drone kills the Zerg retaliated by doing Hydra/Ling 2base all-in using Overlords for creep highway + Seers, You spend too much gas on DT tech, so all you have is DT/Zealot/Sentry/Cannon vs Hydra/Ling/Seer as you try tech to Colossus which is always late Show nested quote +I think this build is quite strong, the one thing that kinda gives it away a bit is that you dont warp in another 3 sentries at ~6:00ish as you would with the 3 gate expand. I think you get destroyed too hard by counter attacks if you skip 3 sentries. They usually get around enough for 6 forcefields for an immediate counter + half way to another 3, which, IMO, you need to survive/delay. My Variant uses an extra two sentries with gas before gateway You get gas too quick to be gas stealed in his build.. My advice: Try gas before gateway if you are going for a 14gate, at that point you aren't going to be able to defend a 6/10pool any better, and you get some extra gas for Sentries (which are lighter on minerals too). The drone in your base usually delays your twilight from dropping anyway, so it shouldn't effect the timing of your DT's
I did say really early pushes with detection can be difficult to hold. Although, I haven''t actually had a problem against 6/7 pool using a 14 gate, only played against a 10 pool once, and won that too, though I had to diverge out of the build in that case.
The thing is, if you get an extra two sentries, you really should not expect to put any real effective pressure at all on the zerg.
When did your DTs/when did the hydra/ling come? Rep would be nice.
On another note, been experimenting with getting the first robo around 7:20 instead of waiting to put 2 down together. It's been working pretty smoothly, trying it out a bit more.
edit - just read your post again and your build sounds nothing like mine, timings probably incredibly different.
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On April 16 2011 19:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think this build is quite strong, the one thing that kinda gives it away a bit is that you dont warp in another 3 sentries at ~6:00ish as you would with the 3 gate expand. So if are able to kill off the scoutling once you move out of your base, its a big win, because the zerg player has to send a new one first, which takes some time, and he wont immidiately notice the low sentry count then.
I think if the zerg goes for blind spore crawlers you've pretty much just lost (ofc comebacks are always possible). On the other hand, if you just delay mining a bit and kill a queen or two and some drones, you're in a pretty comfortable position.
Yea blind spores are a bit annoying, since I can't really do any damage if they are placed well. Then I just have to rely on delaying creep tumors/3rd and trying to buy enough time to be able to hold any push, which can be difficult.
Sentry count is a really heavy tell, nothing really that can be done about that except trying to deny scouting though. I do hide units when doing normal builds as well if I don't anticipate needing the extra units immediately at my nat though, so it could be misread as such during a boX series.
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really well timed out. looks kinda like sentry expand briefly. Good ladder build until everyone figures out the tells
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I think a more effective way to open would be like the DT rush I use vs Terran:
9 Pylon 12 Gas 14 Gate 17 Pylon 18/19 Core
(not sure on exact numbers from here) Zealot 2nd gas Stalker + WG 3rd Pylon + Council 2nd + 3rd gates
Depending on scouting, I feel like this opening gives you a lot more 'slack gas' to spend on units if you need to defend early without delaying your tech rush too much.
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On April 17 2011 03:05 yarkO wrote: I think a more effective way to open would be like the DT rush I use vs Terran:
9 Pylon 12 Gas 14 Gate 17 Pylon 18/19 Core
(not sure on exact numbers from here) Zealot 2nd gas Stalker + WG 3rd Pylon + Council 2nd + 3rd gates
Depending on scouting, I feel like this opening gives you a lot more 'slack gas' to spend on units if you need to defend early without delaying your tech rush too much.
Problem is that doing it that way is more risky against early ling, and if you build 2nd gas after 1st zealot, you probably have no more or less gas than the way I currently do it.
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I will proxy the DT shrine from now on (got caught twice).
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On April 17 2011 03:39 iChau wrote: I will proxy the DT shrine from now on (got caught twice).
You can do that, but its still risky. Never know if the zerg might check even the most infrequently checked places. Usually more reliable to not proxy and just try to deny scouting.
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On April 17 2011 07:02 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:39 iChau wrote: I will proxy the DT shrine from now on (got caught twice). You can do that, but its still risky. Never know if the zerg might check even the most infrequently checked places. Usually more reliable to not proxy and just try to deny scouting.
Yes, i also think that not proxying is better especially on maps like xel naga caverns, its not so hard to scout the whole map for proxies iwth 2 speedlings.
Overall, in both scenarios you take a risk (one that the opponent finds the proxy, in the other one that he sends the overlord in from the right direction).
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Added a section on playing against being blind countered (or just super gosu read countered). Still testing it though.
Notably, since I open with early double gas most of the time anyways, I actually fooled a zerg into thinking I was going DT, so he went for a quick roach + overseer push only to discover a void ray at his front door . Making the giveaway for this build a bit less of a giveaway.
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I had a DT expand build that I use that is really effective and comes earlier than this. Can you tell me what your thoughts are on it since you are slightly higher in rank than I am?
http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439
BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 15 core 17 gas 17 pylon 18 warp gate 20 stalker 23 TC 100% TC Dark Shrine get 2 more gates in there plus a zealot or two, 1 gate during TC construction, 1 gate during DS construction forward pylon 100% DS = 3 DT warped in at 6:45 Expand
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On April 16 2011 22:56 noobcakes wrote: This build will just totally own Spanishiwa's no gas build, the lair is so late for that build imo. Yup already told them in that thread and already won so many times against Zergs trying that. So easy to spot/metagame against.
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On April 19 2011 02:28 tehemperorer wrote:I had a DT expand build that I use that is really effective and comes earlier than this. Can you tell me what your thoughts are on it since you are slightly higher in rank than I am? http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 15 core 17 gas 17 pylon 18 warp gate 20 stalker 23 TC 100% TC Dark Shrine get 2 more gates in there plus a zealot or two, 1 gate during TC construction, 1 gate during DS construction forward pylon 100% DS = 3 DT warped in at 6:45 Expand
Can't watch right now, on campus, but judging by the numbers I see, you will get wrecked by wzp since you are going stalker first with low econ, and moreover your economy will probably suck really badly from the late expansion.
Basically, it seems you get screwed even harder by blind counters followed by a 2 base push, which seems rather easy if they drone scout since your TC is going up before your stalker finishes, and especially if I were to zergling poke up your ramp after my drone dies and not see a 2nd sentry, I would be rather suspicious of where your gas is going, considering how early you got everything, so I'd probably spore + queen with a couple spines.
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On April 19 2011 02:35 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 02:28 tehemperorer wrote:I had a DT expand build that I use that is really effective and comes earlier than this. Can you tell me what your thoughts are on it since you are slightly higher in rank than I am? http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 15 core 17 gas 17 pylon 18 warp gate 20 stalker 23 TC 100% TC Dark Shrine get 2 more gates in there plus a zealot or two, 1 gate during TC construction, 1 gate during DS construction forward pylon 100% DS = 3 DT warped in at 6:45 Expand Can't watch right now, on campus, but judging by the numbers I see, you will get wrecked by wzp since you are going stalker first with low econ, and moreover your economy will probably suck really badly from the late expansion. Basically, it seems you get screwed even harder by blind counters followed by a 2 base push, which seems rather easy if they drone scout since your TC is going up before your stalker finishes, and especially if I were to zergling poke up your ramp after my drone dies and not see a 2nd sentry, I would be rather suspicious of where your gas is going, considering how early you got everything, so I'd probably spore + queen with a couple spines. Thanks I will definitely look into your build.
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Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made.
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the two sentries are a big giveaway for this build, as soon as a z scouts u trying to expand with only 2 sentries and rest zeals... they know whats up (if they know of this build that is), since spore crawlers aren't big investment, and since dts are.. you are gonna be far far behind.
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On April 19 2011 03:18 NerZhuL wrote: the two sentries are a big giveaway for this build, as soon as a z scouts u trying to expand with only 2 sentries and rest zeals... they know whats up (if they know of this build that is), since spore crawlers aren't big investment, and since dts are.. you are gonna be far far behind. Looks good on a forum post, but the problem with spore crawlers in relation to this is that it will take 3 dts 5.13 game seconds to kill it, and that's not really that much reaction time to respond to them, or enough time to do damage to the dts to eliminate them. When I DT expand I typically encounter spore colonies and thrash them because they are not effective against 3 dts and aren't really a good response to a dt threat. Also it is important to note that 1 DT takes 15.4 seconds to down a spore colony, that has a 30 second build time. If your DTs are there before the spores go down, the Zerg is in a lot of trouble.
Even if your opponent guesses correctly what you are doing, you have just forced them to lair if they haven't already, or throw down more spores, or both. In either case, you can contain and deny their third while you take your free 2nd, making it 2 base to 2 base PvZ which favors P. Also, you can easily go HT/Immortal off of this build since the partial tech is already there, the geysers are already taken, and the expansion has been established. Furthermore, the Zerg can't push out without a few overseers (1 will just get sniped or fb/snipe), and the more they stay on 2 bases the more they invest in not as cost effective units for defense.
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On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote: Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh.
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On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote: Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh.
Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK.
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On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote: Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK.
Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty.
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On April 19 2011 05:01 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote: Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK. Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty.
I have to admit, I'm a bad DT-tech player. Tried it a couple of times, but always either lost or won despite a crappy execution. I'm a good stargate player and mostly stick with the stuff I know that works
But the ~10 sec delay doesn't sound to bad to me, if it means that zerg has to play more safely. I'm currently moving, so can't really test much for the following 1-2 weeks either
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On April 19 2011 05:40 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 05:01 EtherealDeath wrote:On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote: Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK. Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty. I have to admit, I'm a bad DT-tech player. Tried it a couple of times, but always either lost or won despite a crappy execution. I'm a good stargate player and mostly stick with the stuff I know that works But the ~10 sec delay doesn't sound to bad to me, if it means that zerg has to play more safely. I'm currently moving, so can't really test much for the following 1-2 weeks either
Oh yea, that reminds me that sometimes I go 3gate stargate expand off the same opening instead of DT, same expand timing at 6:30.
Same for testing stuff out, I'm sooo screwed for the next 2 weeks. Finals and shit.
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On April 19 2011 05:44 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 05:40 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 05:01 EtherealDeath wrote:On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote: Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK. Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty. I have to admit, I'm a bad DT-tech player. Tried it a couple of times, but always either lost or won despite a crappy execution. I'm a good stargate player and mostly stick with the stuff I know that works But the ~10 sec delay doesn't sound to bad to me, if it means that zerg has to play more safely. I'm currently moving, so can't really test much for the following 1-2 weeks either Oh yea, that reminds me that sometimes I go 3gate stargate expand off the same opening instead of DT, same expand timing at 6:30. Same for testing stuff out, I'm sooo screwed for the next 2 weeks. Finals and shit. It's funny that you mentioned the stargate expand because I have a phoenix expand that is identical to my DT expand and differs only when you place the stargate instead of the dark shrine. It's funny how those things work out, but sorry you two can't test the stuff out; at least you get a nice little bonus pool going.
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Nice post op. I tried this today, albeit I didn't follow the b/o to a 't' and what not but just used it as the general idea, pretty much went for the dt asap with limited units. I think I warped in a few zeals and only the 1 sentry. That being said I sent my first 3 dt's and snuck the first one up his ramp on gulch and wiped out the majority of his drones there, roach den, pool and evo chamber before he could get rid of the dt. He spined up really good at his nat so I just switched to the macro game from there and he was just to far behind.
I can see this working as something nice to throw in once in awhile but not all the time, either way the idea is to have a fairly big tool bag of tricks so this is good. I'm fairly high in my diamond division for what its worth.
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hmm i think i saw this build exactly yesterday durring the day9 daily
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The tell with this build would be the early double gas, I usually steal at 17 and if I see a toss going for double gas before 17, my first alarm tingles, I know something is up and will keep my drone alive as long as possible, if I see a stalker instead of sentary... then a big fog horn is blowing because that gas is being stocked for something....my ovi will be saced soon after to see unit comp and production, if I don't atleast 3 gates with sentry support then spores are going down as safety vs either air or DT play and then power drone and mix in some roaches to hold off any pressure til I see expo and do a slow lair for some nice Roach drops with burrow to slow down and attempt 3rd.
I will admit DT's can be somewhat tricky to deal with at times if they can snipe spores or find areas that isn't reviled, denying 3rd and defending a little (they can be super annoying) so all in all there is some options opened for sure, but rushing to them might put you behind if you are unable to penetrate the spore roach queen defence then air or robo is needed.
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DT off of one base like this is definitely a good build to just know, but not something you want to run every game on ladder. I like using DTs when I know the Zerg is delaying Lair in order to get a quick third (ling/baneling), which allows me to take my own third quickly due to the control DTs will grant you, and also allows you to make archons which tear through lings/baneling. Having 3-4 archons against ling/baneling is very very hard to deal with with Zerg's low tier tech units.
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This build does amazingly well against the so called "Ice-fisher" build so popular with Zerg now. XD
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On April 19 2011 09:39 CecilSunkure wrote: DT off of one base like this is definitely a good build to just know, but not something you want to run every game on ladder. I like using DTs when I know the Zerg is delaying Lair in order to get a quick third (ling/baneling), which allows me to take my own third quickly due to the control DTs will grant you, and also allows you to make archons which tear through lings/baneling. Having 3-4 archons against ling/baneling is very very hard to deal with with Zerg's low tier tech units.
Yep, although I've been running it every game anyways just to get more practice with it. Curiously it feels like I can deal with fast overseer anyways, just because the zerg will usually not have more than 1 initially and I can get run circles around that. Though playing against early detection feels very difficult, it does not feel difficult in the sense that it is impossible - just that the timings on when I have to get things are very very tight, and I have to read the situation asap and not miss anything.
The hydra/ling drop for instance I'm learning to deal with, and the early roach/overseer push that Strifecro did in response to this build I think can be held too, and you can get good drone harass while the zerg moves to your base unless there is static defense up, which would slow down the push.
And of course going 14 gate 15 gas 16 gas 17 pylon 18 cyber doesn't really screw with your economy very much, so you could just go perfectly normal afterwards, mix it up a bit.
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On April 19 2011 09:00 OzkanTheFlip wrote: hmm i think i saw this build exactly yesterday durring the day9 daily
Which episode # / where in the episode?
Looking through to see if I can find it, will comment more when I do.
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Ok, so White-Ra did a 3 gate expand into DT (@9:40) in replay 17 11 of the special tactics pack, against Shins on Xel'Naga. However, Shins did a 1 base infestor expand....like getting infestor before expand... yea...
Dts destroyed zerg drones, dont know how/why since there should have been an overseer already, and any normal zerg would have a lot of units. Not sure how his version of DTs would work out. Certainly they'd be hitting around the time for a 3rd base usually for zerg, so it could be pretty annoying.
A better match appears in replay 17 12 against UkraineStar.
Note that WhiteRa gets his twilight council at 6:53, after expand, so it completely looks like a 3 gate expand up to that point, as he even shows the extra sentries. He doesn't get too much damage off with the DTs, but it seemed to go ok. He could have sniped drones or forced drones off mining at the 3rd while harassing the main, since there was a spore there but no units anywhere near. Free damage that was not taken advantage of.
I'm not sure how his build would far against fast drop play. I think it could hold it off, but the sentry count + the dts mean there are not many ranged units that actually do a lot of damage. So, while sentries can forcefield, you could in theory lift units out of forcefield with overlords, and sentries do too little damage to kill them fast enough. But, this is all theorycraft. Build looks interesting, will definitely try it once my finals and stuff are done.
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I'm most turned-on by the idea of double assimilators before core. You get so much teching flexibility! Of course, at the cost telegraphing a slower Warpgate build with either heavy tech or mass-sentry.
On April 19 2011 09:54 OdiousTea wrote: This build does amazingly well against the so called "Ice-fisher" build so popular with Zerg now. XD It does well against any Zerg build that plans to detect a DT opening from context, instead of simply have Lair or Spore by the time DTs could show up. Because the build shows two sentries, a Zerg is very unlikely to realize you're going DTs.
However, once Zerg recognizes the possibility of going extra-gas --> sentry AND dark templar, there won't really be any difference between this build vs. Ice Fisher and any other DT opening vs. Ice Fisher. It's not as if Zerg will miss the fact you went double-gas before core.
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On April 20 2011 09:36 Severedevil wrote:I'm most turned-on by the idea of double assimilators before core. You get so much teching flexibility! Of course, at the cost telegraphing a slower Warpgate build with either heavy tech or mass-sentry.Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 09:54 OdiousTea wrote: This build does amazingly well against the so called "Ice-fisher" build so popular with Zerg now. XD It does well against any Zerg build that plans to detect a DT opening from context, instead of simply have Lair or Spore by the time DTs could show up. Because the build shows two sentries, a Zerg is very unlikely to realize you're going DTs. However, once Zerg recognizes the possibility of going extra-gas --> sentry AND dark templar, there won't really be any difference between this build vs. Ice Fisher and any other DT opening vs. Ice Fisher. It's not as if Zerg will miss the fact you went double-gas before core.
Well, you could 12 gate 14 gas 15 gas and threaten to have wg research done same time as 4g, though of course you will be something like a zealot down at least, even if you pull off gas. I just don't like the econ hit it induces. For example MC opened 12 gate into double gas, and could not expand (did not have the money!) until 6:50, a full 20 seconds after I would normally expand.
But, I don't think the later wg research of a 14 gate is that heavy of a hit. Could be wrong, but I think you can do pretty strong 4 gates even with a 14 gate, especially if they expect tech due to double gas before core + late gate.
Curiously, most zergs I play go for a lot of speedlings upon seeing this...doesn't really affect my expo usually since my DTs will just swipe their lings away, and I can delay with what I have until they finish, unless they go really heavy (~20) speedling, and then I just cancel the nexus if necessary and rebuild it a bit later as DTs are preparing to warp in.
edit: Also, with regards to this vs normal DT builds against Spanishiwa (not counting the White-Ra one I looked at above) normal one base DT rushes involve a much later expand than with this build, so you are quite behind economically even if you can slow down the zerg's 3rd. With this, you can delay creep spread and the 3rd, while simultaneously expanding nearly as fast as 3 gate sentry expand.
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This is a nice answer to the new Zerg builds coming up right now. Even using the dts for archons later on could prove effective. I will try this more on ladder to overcome my lousy PvZ. Thx for this build!
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On April 20 2011 09:45 EtherealDeath wrote: edit: Also, with regards to this vs normal DT builds against Spanishiwa (not counting the White-Ra one I looked at above) normal one base DT rushes involve a much later expand than with this build, so you are quite behind economically even if you can slow down the zerg's 3rd. With this, you can delay creep spread and the 3rd, while simultaneously expanding nearly as fast as 3 gate sentry expand. I don't see why your DT rush can expand faster than any other?
No DT build can afford Dark Shrine AND Expansion AND enough units to secure the expansion before the DTs pop. You're relying on the interesting notion that a DT build can safely place the expansion before it can defend the expansion, which (if it's a reliable truth) is very important, but applies to other DT builds just as well.
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On April 20 2011 10:06 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 09:45 EtherealDeath wrote: edit: Also, with regards to this vs normal DT builds against Spanishiwa (not counting the White-Ra one I looked at above) normal one base DT rushes involve a much later expand than with this build, so you are quite behind economically even if you can slow down the zerg's 3rd. With this, you can delay creep spread and the 3rd, while simultaneously expanding nearly as fast as 3 gate sentry expand. I don't see why your DT rush can expand faster than any other? No DT build can afford Dark Shrine AND Expansion AND enough units to secure the expansion before the DTs pop. You're relying on the interesting notion that a DT build can safely place the expansion before it can defend the expansion, which (if it's a reliable truth) is very important, but applies to other DT builds just as well.
Unless they mass zergling, your DTs will arrive in time to save your nexus from any immediate threat. For example, the 30 drone roach ling push that comes at 7:20 (exact time depends on spawn positions, but generally no more than 10 seconds later than this) . You can hold that with good FF. If they mass zergling early, it's not a big hit to just cancel the nexus and expand a bit later, since they have shit econ and they won't have lair. It should be noted you can't send a DT to harass their base before stopping this push, since if you do you actually have a real chance of losing the nexus.
The point is, your nexus will take a lot of damage but you won't actually lose anything serious from any immediate threat, and all such immediate threats involve some sacrifice in the zerg's econ and/or tech.
Obviously, a DT rush that pops DT at 6:45 will also defend an expansion. However with such a build you do not have the money to expand before this, and the warp in generally takes all your money, so you will probably be expanding around 7:10 if not later.
Furthermore, if you were to DT at 6:45 and thus have a later expand, the money you are missing translates into a much smaller army to deal with a 2 base zerg push such as a fast lair into 2 base drop play, typically consisting of hydraling. I cannot say this 100% but I think it would be extremely hard if not impossible for you to hold this while doing such a fast DT rush unless there is no detection at the zerg base, allowing you to deal sufficient damage, and there often would be detection since to rush DT that fast you will have no sentry whenever the zerg pokes up your ramp with lings, but their drone scout will see your fast double gas - and this will ring alarm bells in the zerg's mind.
edit - There is still a strong threat from 2 base builds as I mentioned in the OP, and am practicing to deal with, but it feels deal-able, just that the timings to do so are very tight and you need to be very proactive with DT pokes for scouting coupled with obs. I will probably end up changing the followup section dramatically once I have time for serious practice after finals.
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Waaah this build is sick. So far at high diamond it wins half my games outright and the other half within a few minutes of pumping units off my two nexuses after the Zerg is super crippled. I have been going for a mass gate (5 w/ forge and a robo for observer if they are getting burrow or 6 w/ forge if they have no burrow) afterwards. Works wonders.
Thanks for this.
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Check out my two ladder games last night using an earlier version of this: I do it basically every PvZ I play because Spanishiwa's build is so popular and the no gas is the first thing your scout sees:
http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111 Game starts at 4:00
Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out
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On April 21 2011 03:03 tehemperorer wrote:Check out my two ladder games last night using an earlier version of this: I do it basically every PvZ I play because Spanishiwa's build is so popular and the no gas is the first thing your scout sees: http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111Game starts at 4:00 Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out
Nah zergs can still hard counter you. In fact the variant I've been having practice partners do atm involves later lair with fast spore, although fast lair may be better actually (probably so).
Whoa Shenzu's version of it is different from what I remembered it being D: (remembered it being twilight after expand kind of like how WhiteRa incorporates DTs into his builds.
There are subtle differences in our builds though. His build gets gas at the more standard time, translating into less gas overall and later DT (warping in around 7:50 - I usually don't expect to do damage at this point...). Also, he had gas for 2 DT as opposed to 3. It may seem like a trivial difference but in certain cases it is the difference between a dead hatchery and not much being done at all.
The greater gas you get using my build can be used for faster tech, so that it plays out a bit smoother imo against things like fast 2 base hydra ling drop, which I have found to be one of the scariest responses to this build.
The other difference is our followups. While the followup (gateway robo -> stalker col sentry) that I see in his replays is one of the methods I have been transitioning out, I have also been experimenting with various other ones, such as a 3gate2robo -> 6 gate push at zerg nat @ 13:00 with immortal stalker sentry into 6 gate sentry stalker reinforcements, if the zerg does NOT go for a 2 base build and is actively trying to/has taken 3rd and was not immediately prepared with detection when initial DTs arrived (up to ~32 seconds earlier than with Shenzu's build, depending on zerg scouting).
The 32 seconds also opens up the option of gateway warp prism play vs certain zerg responses, and imo is one of the most fun followups I have tried so far, though it is dependent on specific things happening - DTs don't need to do much damage, but zerg needs to be trying to expand by 9:30 at the latest, and is preferrably playing greedy (you also need to have not lost any DTs up to this point while slowing down creep spread / slowing 3rd). There is an extra :D factor if zerg is going mostly ling/bling style, or if zerg has overseer but not spore spine at every base. The faster gas you get allows a faster robo while massing sentry/other gateway units, so you can get an obs + warp prism without cutting anything from your other gas expenditures.
In general though, our openers are remarkably similar. I actually knew of Shenzu's thread when I made this, but I thought it was the WhiteRa variant with much later DT lol D:
edit - And it's not going DT that's important, it's how you go it. The timings are actually quite tight against any good player.
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On April 21 2011 03:03 tehemperorer wrote:Check out my two ladder games last night using an earlier version of this: I do it basically every PvZ I play because Spanishiwa's build is so popular and the no gas is the first thing your scout sees: http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111Game starts at 4:00 Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out
It is interesting, it makes me nervous not having sentries, but i suppose the build did look like a fake tech into 4 gate to the zerg... and I assume that is why he built soooooo many zerglings.
Although, if he went fast roach + spine to defend (because the gas + probes being on it do translate into a slower wg), then felt something was up and put down an evo... hmm I dunno. If he did that, lair would be late, and so there would be no threat of zerg pushing out, so even though your expand is late... it might not be a problem unless zerg goes late lair 2 base drop play, because I really don't think you have the econ to hold it with an expand going up at 8:00, though I could be wrong.
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My biggest problem is getting that scouting drone out of my base with just a sentry and zealot. This can often delay my twilight council severely and ruin the entire timing of the DTs.
Any tips for killing that drone with a zealot and sentry in a quick fashion?
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On April 22 2011 00:59 Job wrote: My biggest problem is getting that scouting drone out of my base with just a sentry and zealot. This can often delay my twilight council severely and ruin the entire timing of the DTs.
Any tips for killing that drone with a zealot and sentry in a quick fashion?
Hit and run with sentry. Eventually drone runs out of room to run straight away from sentry (drone is faster than sentry normally). You have to maneuver in a way as to box the drone into an area, then just stutter step like with a marine. The shot isn't instantaneous, so you'll have to get a feel for it, but you can shoot and move without the beam ever appearing.
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On April 22 2011 00:59 Job wrote: My biggest problem is getting that scouting drone out of my base with just a sentry and zealot. This can often delay my twilight council severely and ruin the entire timing of the DTs.
Any tips for killing that drone with a zealot and sentry in a quick fashion?
Yeah, I lost a lot because my twilight council was delayed to the 4:40 mark due to drone mineral walking: the sentry and zealot does not do enough DPS as long as the zealot misses the the second swing of the first hit, which is possible, because the drone is usually in there before the sentry comes out.
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On April 22 2011 01:08 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 00:59 Job wrote: My biggest problem is getting that scouting drone out of my base with just a sentry and zealot. This can often delay my twilight council severely and ruin the entire timing of the DTs.
Any tips for killing that drone with a zealot and sentry in a quick fashion? Yeah, I lost a lot because my twilight council was delayed to the 4:40 mark due to drone mineral walking: the sentry and zealot does not do enough DPS as long as the zealot misses the the second swing of the first hit, which is possible, because the drone is usually in there before the sentry comes out.
4:40 is fine. Just pretend your sentry is a marine and deal with the drone.
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It's a good build, i've been using a variation of this since quite a few weeks now and adjusted the timing and BO to my needs. It's not as easy to scout, even in high master, as people claim here. Also, i've played several practice games with top200 opponents who knew this was coming, so they had spores down by the time i had DTs and still managed to use em for map control and get my exp going. Since i play Random, the only reason why i can play against this when spawning Zerg is the fact that i know the build in and out and can read what's going on by poking the ramp. You need to study the build from a Protoss point of view or analize your Zerg replays very carefully or you won't see this coming against a decent opponent. Some people here should maybe play less theorycraft and actually get into the game and try things before claiming that's somewhat easy to scout or read.
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Just tried it, couldn't get it to work. Might have been useful a couple weeks ago, but I'm not surprised that it doesn't work anymore.
I'm pretty sure the early double gas is a dead giveaway even if he doesn't see the tech. Guy had an overseer right away.
Now that the spanishwa build is more commonplace and protoss are resorting to things like phoenix harass and DT expand to keep up, zerg players know what to expect.
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I'm so glad I do the Morrow build, 14gas,14pool, 16ovie, 16 queen, metaboost, 21 hatch, and lair as soon as I get 150 more gas. Quick overseer, early speedling for map control, can spot proxy pylons, and dts early.
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