EPThttp://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111
Game starts at 4:00
Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out
[G/D] PvZ 3 gate DT expand - Page 4
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111 Game starts at 4:00 Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out | ||
|
Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:03 tehemperorer wrote: Check out my two ladder games last night using an earlier version of this: I do it basically every PvZ I play because Spanishiwa's build is so popular and the no gas is the first thing your scout sees: http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111 Game starts at 4:00 Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out Uhmm..Spores? When I play Spanishiwa's build I throw down 2 blind spore crawlers in each mineral line to watch for banshees, phoenixes, DTs, etc. A lot of players react as you do and rush for a higher invisible or flying tech. You don't need gas to detect dts and 150 min plus 2 drones is not that much to ensure you live through the first 10 minutes of the game with an eco advantage. This kind of PvZ DT expand is very effective, but not really new. Just check out Shenzu's post, or, actually, many other posts made. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203792  http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dark Templar Fast Expand %28vs. Terran%29http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193150 | ||
|
EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:03 tehemperorer wrote: Check out my two ladder games last night using an earlier version of this: I do it basically every PvZ I play because Spanishiwa's build is so popular and the no gas is the first thing your scout sees: http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111 Game starts at 4:00 Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out Nah zergs can still hard counter you. In fact the variant I've been having practice partners do atm involves later lair with fast spore, although fast lair may be better actually (probably so). On April 21 2011 03:20 Venomsflame wrote: Uhmm..Spores? When I play Spanishiwa's build I throw down 2 blind spore crawlers in each mineral line to watch for banshees, phoenixes, DTs, etc. A lot of players react as you do and rush for a higher invisible or flying tech. You don't need gas to detect dts and 150 min plus 2 drones is not that much to ensure you live through the first 10 minutes of the game with an eco advantage. This kind of PvZ DT expand is very effective, but not really new. Just check out Shenzu's post, or, actually, many other posts made. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203792 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dark Templar Fast Expand %28vs. Terran%29http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193150 Whoa Shenzu's version of it is different from what I remembered it being D: (remembered it being twilight after expand kind of like how WhiteRa incorporates DTs into his builds. There are subtle differences in our builds though. His build gets gas at the more standard time, translating into less gas overall and later DT (warping in around 7:50 - I usually don't expect to do damage at this point...). Also, he had gas for 2 DT as opposed to 3. It may seem like a trivial difference but in certain cases it is the difference between a dead hatchery and not much being done at all. The greater gas you get using my build can be used for faster tech, so that it plays out a bit smoother imo against things like fast 2 base hydra ling drop, which I have found to be one of the scariest responses to this build. The other difference is our followups. While the followup (gateway robo -> stalker col sentry) that I see in his replays is one of the methods I have been transitioning out, I have also been experimenting with various other ones, such as a 3gate2robo -> 6 gate push at zerg nat @ 13:00 with immortal stalker sentry into 6 gate sentry stalker reinforcements, if the zerg does NOT go for a 2 base build and is actively trying to/has taken 3rd and was not immediately prepared with detection when initial DTs arrived (up to ~32 seconds earlier than with Shenzu's build, depending on zerg scouting). The 32 seconds also opens up the option of gateway warp prism play vs certain zerg responses, and imo is one of the most fun followups I have tried so far, though it is dependent on specific things happening - DTs don't need to do much damage, but zerg needs to be trying to expand by 9:30 at the latest, and is preferrably playing greedy (you also need to have not lost any DTs up to this point while slowing down creep spread / slowing 3rd). There is an extra :D factor if zerg is going mostly ling/bling style, or if zerg has overseer but not spore spine at every base. The faster gas you get allows a faster robo while massing sentry/other gateway units, so you can get an obs + warp prism without cutting anything from your other gas expenditures. In general though, our openers are remarkably similar. I actually knew of Shenzu's thread when I made this, but I thought it was the WhiteRa variant with much later DT lol D: edit - And it's not going DT that's important, it's how you go it. The timings are actually quite tight against any good player. | ||
|
EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:03 tehemperorer wrote: Check out my two ladder games last night using an earlier version of this: I do it basically every PvZ I play because Spanishiwa's build is so popular and the no gas is the first thing your scout sees: http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111 Game starts at 4:00 Basically, no gas --> DT, there is simply no possible way to get detection up in time if they don't even have geysers started by the time your scout is forced out It is interesting, it makes me nervous not having sentries, but i suppose the build did look like a fake tech into 4 gate to the zerg... and I assume that is why he built soooooo many zerglings. Although, if he went fast roach + spine to defend (because the gas + probes being on it do translate into a slower wg), then felt something was up and put down an evo... hmm I dunno. If he did that, lair would be late, and so there would be no threat of zerg pushing out, so even though your expand is late... it might not be a problem unless zerg goes late lair 2 base drop play, because I really don't think you have the econ to hold it with an expand going up at 8:00, though I could be wrong. | ||
|
Job
United States25 Posts
Any tips for killing that drone with a zealot and sentry in a quick fashion? | ||
|
EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 22 2011 00:59 Job wrote: My biggest problem is getting that scouting drone out of my base with just a sentry and zealot. This can often delay my twilight council severely and ruin the entire timing of the DTs. Any tips for killing that drone with a zealot and sentry in a quick fashion? Hit and run with sentry. Eventually drone runs out of room to run straight away from sentry (drone is faster than sentry normally). You have to maneuver in a way as to box the drone into an area, then just stutter step like with a marine. The shot isn't instantaneous, so you'll have to get a feel for it, but you can shoot and move without the beam ever appearing. | ||
|
iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 22 2011 00:59 Job wrote: My biggest problem is getting that scouting drone out of my base with just a sentry and zealot. This can often delay my twilight council severely and ruin the entire timing of the DTs. Any tips for killing that drone with a zealot and sentry in a quick fashion? Yeah, I lost a lot because my twilight council was delayed to the 4:40 mark due to drone mineral walking: the sentry and zealot does not do enough DPS as long as the zealot misses the the second swing of the first hit, which is possible, because the drone is usually in there before the sentry comes out. | ||
|
EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 22 2011 01:08 iChau wrote: Yeah, I lost a lot because my twilight council was delayed to the 4:40 mark due to drone mineral walking: the sentry and zealot does not do enough DPS as long as the zealot misses the the second swing of the first hit, which is possible, because the drone is usually in there before the sentry comes out. 4:40 is fine. Just pretend your sentry is a marine and deal with the drone. | ||
|
Evaner
Italy94 Posts
Since i play Random, the only reason why i can play against this when spawning Zerg is the fact that i know the build in and out and can read what's going on by poking the ramp. You need to study the build from a Protoss point of view or analize your Zerg replays very carefully or you won't see this coming against a decent opponent. Some people here should maybe play less theorycraft and actually get into the game and try things before claiming that's somewhat easy to scout or read. | ||
|
shenzu
Canada10 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203792 There are some differences, but more DT usage in the matchup is great overall. | ||
|
dump
Japan514 Posts
I'm pretty sure the early double gas is a dead giveaway even if he doesn't see the tech. Guy had an overseer right away. Now that the spanishwa build is more commonplace and protoss are resorting to things like phoenix harass and DT expand to keep up, zerg players know what to expect. | ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
| ||
| ||
