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On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote:
Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh.
Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK.
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On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote:
Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK.
Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty.
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On April 19 2011 05:01 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote:
Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK. Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty.
I have to admit, I'm a bad DT-tech player. Tried it a couple of times, but always either lost or won despite a crappy execution. I'm a good stargate player and mostly stick with the stuff I know that works 
But the ~10 sec delay doesn't sound to bad to me, if it means that zerg has to play more safely. I'm currently moving, so can't really test much for the following 1-2 weeks either 
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On April 19 2011 05:40 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 05:01 EtherealDeath wrote:On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote:
Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK. Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty. I have to admit, I'm a bad DT-tech player. Tried it a couple of times, but always either lost or won despite a crappy execution. I'm a good stargate player and mostly stick with the stuff I know that works But the ~10 sec delay doesn't sound to bad to me, if it means that zerg has to play more safely. I'm currently moving, so can't really test much for the following 1-2 weeks either
Oh yea, that reminds me that sometimes I go 3gate stargate expand off the same opening instead of DT, same expand timing at 6:30.
Same for testing stuff out, I'm sooo screwed for the next 2 weeks. Finals and shit.
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On April 19 2011 05:44 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 05:40 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 05:01 EtherealDeath wrote:On April 19 2011 04:41 sleepingdog wrote:On April 19 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote:
Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. Well, my point was much more "fundamental"...since 3 gate sentry expo has gotten so common and so figured out by zergs (concerning scouting-pattern, timing for a possible 5 gate and so on), I think every second that you delay the scouting intel - meaning, every second zerg has to prepare for a 4-gate - is worth the investment in the stalker. And since the stalker needs 50 less gas, you can even stick with the "standard" BO of assimilator after core and have enough gas for gas-intensive tech. I've really seen more and more toss players switching zealot/stalker, among them White-Ra and HuK. Well, it's certainly possible to go stalker after zealot. Could honestly still make 2 sentry that way, 3rd dt would just be like ~9-10 seconds later, not too much of a deal I think. The thing is that if you "standard" gas, you will only have 1 sentry, which is probably a large giveaway the moment the overlord scouts that you do have a second gas (since the gas is near enough to the edge of the base for you to not be able to kill the overlord in time). I actually opened stalker first originally, but then there were really funky mass speedling pushes that I had issues with, namely with my zealot eventually dying, then my only having 1 forcefield as this happens. Probably just me playing shitty. I have to admit, I'm a bad DT-tech player. Tried it a couple of times, but always either lost or won despite a crappy execution. I'm a good stargate player and mostly stick with the stuff I know that works But the ~10 sec delay doesn't sound to bad to me, if it means that zerg has to play more safely. I'm currently moving, so can't really test much for the following 1-2 weeks either Oh yea, that reminds me that sometimes I go 3gate stargate expand off the same opening instead of DT, same expand timing at 6:30. Same for testing stuff out, I'm sooo screwed for the next 2 weeks. Finals and shit.
It's funny that you mentioned the stargate expand because I have a phoenix expand that is identical to my DT expand and differs only when you place the stargate instead of the dark shrine. It's funny how those things work out, but sorry you two can't test the stuff out; at least you get a nice little bonus pool going.
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Nice post op. I tried this today, albeit I didn't follow the b/o to a 't' and what not but just used it as the general idea, pretty much went for the dt asap with limited units. I think I warped in a few zeals and only the 1 sentry. That being said I sent my first 3 dt's and snuck the first one up his ramp on gulch and wiped out the majority of his drones there, roach den, pool and evo chamber before he could get rid of the dt. He spined up really good at his nat so I just switched to the macro game from there and he was just to far behind.
I can see this working as something nice to throw in once in awhile but not all the time, either way the idea is to have a fairly big tool bag of tricks so this is good. I'm fairly high in my diamond division for what its worth.
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hmm i think i saw this build exactly yesterday durring the day9 daily
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The tell with this build would be the early double gas, I usually steal at 17 and if I see a toss going for double gas before 17, my first alarm tingles, I know something is up and will keep my drone alive as long as possible, if I see a stalker instead of sentary... then a big fog horn is blowing because that gas is being stocked for something....my ovi will be saced soon after to see unit comp and production, if I don't atleast 3 gates with sentry support then spores are going down as safety vs either air or DT play and then power drone and mix in some roaches to hold off any pressure til I see expo and do a slow lair for some nice Roach drops with burrow to slow down and attempt 3rd.
I will admit DT's can be somewhat tricky to deal with at times if they can snipe spores or find areas that isn't reviled, denying 3rd and defending a little (they can be super annoying) so all in all there is some options opened for sure, but rushing to them might put you behind if you are unable to penetrate the spore roach queen defence then air or robo is needed.
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DT off of one base like this is definitely a good build to just know, but not something you want to run every game on ladder. I like using DTs when I know the Zerg is delaying Lair in order to get a quick third (ling/baneling), which allows me to take my own third quickly due to the control DTs will grant you, and also allows you to make archons which tear through lings/baneling. Having 3-4 archons against ling/baneling is very very hard to deal with with Zerg's low tier tech units.
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This build does amazingly well against the so called "Ice-fisher" build so popular with Zerg now. XD
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On April 19 2011 09:39 CecilSunkure wrote:
DT off of one base like this is definitely a good build to just know, but not something you want to run every game on ladder. I like using DTs when I know the Zerg is delaying Lair in order to get a quick third (ling/baneling), which allows me to take my own third quickly due to the control DTs will grant you, and also allows you to make archons which tear through lings/baneling. Having 3-4 archons against ling/baneling is very very hard to deal with with Zerg's low tier tech units.
Yep, although I've been running it every game anyways just to get more practice with it. Curiously it feels like I can deal with fast overseer anyways, just because the zerg will usually not have more than 1 initially and I can get run circles around that. Though playing against early detection feels very difficult, it does not feel difficult in the sense that it is impossible - just that the timings on when I have to get things are very very tight, and I have to read the situation asap and not miss anything.
The hydra/ling drop for instance I'm learning to deal with, and the early roach/overseer push that Strifecro did in response to this build I think can be held too, and you can get good drone harass while the zerg moves to your base unless there is static defense up, which would slow down the push.
And of course going 14 gate 15 gas 16 gas 17 pylon 18 cyber doesn't really screw with your economy very much, so you could just go perfectly normal afterwards, mix it up a bit.
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On April 19 2011 09:00 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
hmm i think i saw this build exactly yesterday durring the day9 daily
Which episode # / where in the episode?
Looking through to see if I can find it, will comment more when I do.
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Ok, so White-Ra did a 3 gate expand into DT (@9:40) in replay 17 11 of the special tactics pack, against Shins on Xel'Naga. However, Shins did a 1 base infestor expand....like getting infestor before expand... yea...
Dts destroyed zerg drones, dont know how/why since there should have been an overseer already, and any normal zerg would have a lot of units. Not sure how his version of DTs would work out. Certainly they'd be hitting around the time for a 3rd base usually for zerg, so it could be pretty annoying.
A better match appears in replay 17 12 against UkraineStar.
Note that WhiteRa gets his twilight council at 6:53, after expand, so it completely looks like a 3 gate expand up to that point, as he even shows the extra sentries. He doesn't get too much damage off with the DTs, but it seemed to go ok. He could have sniped drones or forced drones off mining at the 3rd while harassing the main, since there was a spore there but no units anywhere near. Free damage that was not taken advantage of.
I'm not sure how his build would far against fast drop play. I think it could hold it off, but the sentry count + the dts mean there are not many ranged units that actually do a lot of damage. So, while sentries can forcefield, you could in theory lift units out of forcefield with overlords, and sentries do too little damage to kill them fast enough. But, this is all theorycraft. Build looks interesting, will definitely try it once my finals and stuff are done.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204275.jpg)
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I'm most turned-on by the idea of double assimilators before core. You get so much teching flexibility! Of course, at the cost telegraphing a slower Warpgate build with either heavy tech or mass-sentry.
On April 19 2011 09:54 OdiousTea wrote:
This build does amazingly well against the so called "Ice-fisher" build so popular with Zerg now. XD
It does well against any Zerg build that plans to detect a DT opening from context, instead of simply have Lair or Spore by the time DTs could show up. Because the build shows two sentries, a Zerg is very unlikely to realize you're going DTs.
However, once Zerg recognizes the possibility of going extra-gas --> sentry AND dark templar, there won't really be any difference between this build vs. Ice Fisher and any other DT opening vs. Ice Fisher. It's not as if Zerg will miss the fact you went double-gas before core.
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On April 20 2011 09:36 Severedevil wrote:I'm most turned-on by the idea of double assimilators before core. You get so much teching flexibility! Of course, at the cost telegraphing a slower Warpgate build with either heavy tech or mass-sentry.Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 09:54 OdiousTea wrote:
This build does amazingly well against the so called "Ice-fisher" build so popular with Zerg now. XD It does well against any Zerg build that plans to detect a DT opening from context, instead of simply have Lair or Spore by the time DTs could show up. Because the build shows two sentries, a Zerg is very unlikely to realize you're going DTs. However, once Zerg recognizes the possibility of going extra-gas --> sentry AND dark templar, there won't really be any difference between this build vs. Ice Fisher and any other DT opening vs. Ice Fisher. It's not as if Zerg will miss the fact you went double-gas before core.
Well, you could 12 gate 14 gas 15 gas and threaten to have wg research done same time as 4g, though of course you will be something like a zealot down at least, even if you pull off gas. I just don't like the econ hit it induces. For example MC opened 12 gate into double gas, and could not expand (did not have the money!) until 6:50, a full 20 seconds after I would normally expand.
But, I don't think the later wg research of a 14 gate is that heavy of a hit. Could be wrong, but I think you can do pretty strong 4 gates even with a 14 gate, especially if they expect tech due to double gas before core + late gate.
Curiously, most zergs I play go for a lot of speedlings upon seeing this...doesn't really affect my expo usually since my DTs will just swipe their lings away, and I can delay with what I have until they finish, unless they go really heavy (~20) speedling, and then I just cancel the nexus if necessary and rebuild it a bit later as DTs are preparing to warp in.
edit: Also, with regards to this vs normal DT builds against Spanishiwa (not counting the White-Ra one I looked at above) normal one base DT rushes involve a much later expand than with this build, so you are quite behind economically even if you can slow down the zerg's 3rd. With this, you can delay creep spread and the 3rd, while simultaneously expanding nearly as fast as 3 gate sentry expand.
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This is a nice answer to the new Zerg builds coming up right now. Even using the dts for archons later on could prove effective. I will try this more on ladder to overcome my lousy PvZ. Thx for this build!
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On April 20 2011 09:45 EtherealDeath wrote:
edit: Also, with regards to this vs normal DT builds against Spanishiwa (not counting the White-Ra one I looked at above) normal one base DT rushes involve a much later expand than with this build, so you are quite behind economically even if you can slow down the zerg's 3rd. With this, you can delay creep spread and the 3rd, while simultaneously expanding nearly as fast as 3 gate sentry expand.
I don't see why your DT rush can expand faster than any other?
No DT build can afford Dark Shrine AND Expansion AND enough units to secure the expansion before the DTs pop. You're relying on the interesting notion that a DT build can safely place the expansion before it can defend the expansion, which (if it's a reliable truth) is very important, but applies to other DT builds just as well.
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On April 20 2011 10:06 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 09:45 EtherealDeath wrote:
edit: Also, with regards to this vs normal DT builds against Spanishiwa (not counting the White-Ra one I looked at above) normal one base DT rushes involve a much later expand than with this build, so you are quite behind economically even if you can slow down the zerg's 3rd. With this, you can delay creep spread and the 3rd, while simultaneously expanding nearly as fast as 3 gate sentry expand. I don't see why your DT rush can expand faster than any other? No DT build can afford Dark Shrine AND Expansion AND enough units to secure the expansion before the DTs pop. You're relying on the interesting notion that a DT build can safely place the expansion before it can defend the expansion, which (if it's a reliable truth) is very important, but applies to other DT builds just as well.
Unless they mass zergling, your DTs will arrive in time to save your nexus from any immediate threat. For example, the 30 drone roach ling push that comes at 7:20 (exact time depends on spawn positions, but generally no more than 10 seconds later than this) . You can hold that with good FF. If they mass zergling early, it's not a big hit to just cancel the nexus and expand a bit later, since they have shit econ and they won't have lair. It should be noted you can't send a DT to harass their base before stopping this push, since if you do you actually have a real chance of losing the nexus.
The point is, your nexus will take a lot of damage but you won't actually lose anything serious from any immediate threat, and all such immediate threats involve some sacrifice in the zerg's econ and/or tech.
Obviously, a DT rush that pops DT at 6:45 will also defend an expansion. However with such a build you do not have the money to expand before this, and the warp in generally takes all your money, so you will probably be expanding around 7:10 if not later.
Furthermore, if you were to DT at 6:45 and thus have a later expand, the money you are missing translates into a much smaller army to deal with a 2 base zerg push such as a fast lair into 2 base drop play, typically consisting of hydraling. I cannot say this 100% but I think it would be extremely hard if not impossible for you to hold this while doing such a fast DT rush unless there is no detection at the zerg base, allowing you to deal sufficient damage, and there often would be detection since to rush DT that fast you will have no sentry whenever the zerg pokes up your ramp with lings, but their drone scout will see your fast double gas - and this will ring alarm bells in the zerg's mind.
edit - There is still a strong threat from 2 base builds as I mentioned in the OP, and am practicing to deal with, but it feels deal-able, just that the timings to do so are very tight and you need to be very proactive with DT pokes for scouting coupled with obs. I will probably end up changing the followup section dramatically once I have time for serious practice after finals.
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Waaah this build is sick. So far at high diamond it wins half my games outright and the other half within a few minutes of pumping units off my two nexuses after the Zerg is super crippled. I have been going for a mass gate (5 w/ forge and a robo for observer if they are getting burrow or 6 w/ forge if they have no burrow) afterwards. Works wonders.
Thanks for this.
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EPT
