EPT[G/D] PvZ 3 gate DT expand - Page 2
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noobcakes
United States526 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 16 2011 20:31 Dommk wrote: Weakness should be close position, IMO. I've tried to do DT 3gate expand (not like the OP's though), after I managed to get 10drone kills the Zerg retaliated by doing Hydra/Ling 2base all-in using Overlords for creep highway + Seers, You spend too much gas on DT tech, so all you have is DT/Zealot/Sentry/Cannon vs Hydra/Ling/Seer as you try tech to Colossus which is always late  I think you get destroyed too hard by counter attacks if you skip 3 sentries. They usually get around enough for 6 forcefields for an immediate counter + half way to another 3, which, IMO, you need to survive/delay. My Variant uses an extra two sentries with gas before gateway You get gas too quick to be gas stealed in his build.. My advice: Try gas before gateway if you are going for a 14gate, at that point you aren't going to be able to defend a 6/10pool any better, and you get some extra gas for Sentries (which are lighter on minerals too). The drone in your base usually delays your twilight from dropping anyway, so it shouldn't effect the timing of your DT's I did say really early pushes with detection can be difficult to hold. Although, I haven''t actually had a problem against 6/7 pool using a 14 gate, only played against a 10 pool once, and won that too, though I had to diverge out of the build in that case. The thing is, if you get an extra two sentries, you really should not expect to put any real effective pressure at all on the zerg. When did your DTs/when did the hydra/ling come? Rep would be nice. On another note, been experimenting with getting the first robo around 7:20 instead of waiting to put 2 down together. It's been working pretty smoothly, trying it out a bit more. edit - just read your post again and your build sounds nothing like mine, timings probably incredibly different. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 16 2011 19:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think this build is quite strong, the one thing that kinda gives it away a bit is that you dont warp in another 3 sentries at ~6:00ish as you would with the 3 gate expand. So if are able to kill off the scoutling once you move out of your base, its a big win, because the zerg player has to send a new one first, which takes some time, and he wont immidiately notice the low sentry count then. I think if the zerg goes for blind spore crawlers you've pretty much just lost (ofc comebacks are always possible). On the other hand, if you just delay mining a bit and kill a queen or two and some drones, you're in a pretty comfortable position. Yea blind spores are a bit annoying, since I can't really do any damage if they are placed well. Then I just have to rely on delaying creep tumors/3rd and trying to buy enough time to be able to hold any push, which can be difficult. Sentry count is a really heavy tell, nothing really that can be done about that except trying to deny scouting though. I do hide units when doing normal builds as well if I don't anticipate needing the extra units immediately at my nat though, so it could be misread as such during a boX series. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
9 Pylon 12 Gas 14 Gate 17 Pylon 18/19 Core (not sure on exact numbers from here) Zealot 2nd gas Stalker + WG 3rd Pylon + Council 2nd + 3rd gates Depending on scouting, I feel like this opening gives you a lot more 'slack gas' to spend on units if you need to defend early without delaying your tech rush too much. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 17 2011 03:05 yarkO wrote: I think a more effective way to open would be like the DT rush I use vs Terran: 9 Pylon 12 Gas 14 Gate 17 Pylon 18/19 Core (not sure on exact numbers from here) Zealot 2nd gas Stalker + WG 3rd Pylon + Council 2nd + 3rd gates Depending on scouting, I feel like this opening gives you a lot more 'slack gas' to spend on units if you need to defend early without delaying your tech rush too much. Problem is that doing it that way is more risky against early ling, and if you build 2nd gas after 1st zealot, you probably have no more or less gas than the way I currently do it. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 17 2011 03:39 iChau wrote: I will proxy the DT shrine from now on (got caught twice). You can do that, but its still risky. Never know if the zerg might check even the most infrequently checked places. Usually more reliable to not proxy and just try to deny scouting. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 17 2011 07:02 EtherealDeath wrote: You can do that, but its still risky. Never know if the zerg might check even the most infrequently checked places. Usually more reliable to not proxy and just try to deny scouting. Yes, i also think that not proxying is better especially on maps like xel naga caverns, its not so hard to scout the whole map for proxies iwth 2 speedlings. Overall, in both scenarios you take a risk (one that the opponent finds the proxy, in the other one that he sends the overlord in from the right direction). | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
Notably, since I open with early double gas most of the time anyways, I actually fooled a zerg into thinking I was going DT, so he went for a quick roach + overseer push only to discover a void ray at his front door  . Making the giveaway for this build a bit less of a giveaway. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439 BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 15 core 17 gas 17 pylon 18 warp gate 20 stalker 23 TC 100% TC Dark Shrine get 2 more gates in there plus a zealot or two, 1 gate during TC construction, 1 gate during DS construction forward pylon 100% DS = 3 DT warped in at 6:45 Expand | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 16 2011 22:56 noobcakes wrote: This build will just totally own Spanishiwa's no gas build, the lair is so late for that build imo. Yup already told them in that thread and already won so many times against Zergs trying that. So easy to spot/metagame against. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:28 tehemperorer wrote: I had a DT expand build that I use that is really effective and comes earlier than this. Can you tell me what your thoughts are on it since you are slightly higher in rank than I am? http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439 BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 15 core 17 gas 17 pylon 18 warp gate 20 stalker 23 TC 100% TC Dark Shrine get 2 more gates in there plus a zealot or two, 1 gate during TC construction, 1 gate during DS construction forward pylon 100% DS = 3 DT warped in at 6:45 Expand Can't watch right now, on campus, but judging by the numbers I see, you will get wrecked by wzp since you are going stalker first with low econ, and moreover your economy will probably suck really badly from the late expansion. Basically, it seems you get screwed even harder by blind counters followed by a 2 base push, which seems rather easy if they drone scout since your TC is going up before your stalker finishes, and especially if I were to zergling poke up your ramp after my drone dies and not see a 2nd sentry, I would be rather suspicious of where your gas is going, considering how early you got everything, so I'd probably spore + queen with a couple spines. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:35 EtherealDeath wrote: Can't watch right now, on campus, but judging by the numbers I see, you will get wrecked by wzp since you are going stalker first with low econ, and moreover your economy will probably suck really badly from the late expansion. Basically, it seems you get screwed even harder by blind counters followed by a 2 base push, which seems rather easy if they drone scout since your TC is going up before your stalker finishes, and especially if I were to zergling poke up your ramp after my drone dies and not see a 2nd sentry, I would be rather suspicious of where your gas is going, considering how early you got everything, so I'd probably spore + queen with a couple spines. Thanks I will definitely look into your build. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
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NerZhuL
United States57 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:18 NerZhuL wrote: the two sentries are a big giveaway for this build, as soon as a z scouts u trying to expand with only 2 sentries and rest zeals... they know whats up (if they know of this build that is), since spore crawlers aren't big investment, and since dts are.. you are gonna be far far behind. Looks good on a forum post, but the problem with spore crawlers in relation to this is that it will take 3 dts 5.13 game seconds to kill it, and that's not really that much reaction time to respond to them, or enough time to do damage to the dts to eliminate them. When I DT expand I typically encounter spore colonies and thrash them because they are not effective against 3 dts and aren't really a good response to a dt threat. Also it is important to note that 1 DT takes 15.4 seconds to down a spore colony, that has a 30 second build time. If your DTs are there before the spores go down, the Zerg is in a lot of trouble. Even if your opponent guesses correctly what you are doing, you have just forced them to lair if they haven't already, or throw down more spores, or both. In either case, you can contain and deny their third while you take your free 2nd, making it 2 base to 2 base PvZ which favors P. Also, you can easily go HT/Immortal off of this build since the partial tech is already there, the geysers are already taken, and the expansion has been established. Furthermore, the Zerg can't push out without a few overseers (1 will just get sniped or fb/snipe), and the more they stay on 2 bases the more they invest in not as cost effective units for defense. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:51 sleepingdog wrote: Need to look into the structure of the BO a bit more, but to be honest, I don't really like the zealot/sentry/sentry structure - I've been playing with stalker almost exclusively for some time now, it kills the drone just so much more quickly. The early roach/ling rush from wzp should be scouted way earlier than a decision about stalker vs sentry has to be made. That's why I prefer a 10gate DT tech opening because you get stalkers earlier, but 12 gate is only about a 17 second difference tbh. | ||
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